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wood chip
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Registered: 02/22/09
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pressure cooker limits
#18952650 - 10/09/13 01:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't want to use a boiler, and would like to pressure cook 50 to 100 5 pound bags per run.
unicorn sell these the bottom picture http://fungiequipment.com/autoclaves/autoclaves/index.shtml
Has anyone used one of these before? Apparently, it can use a boiler, or be heated with a gas burner as a pressure cooker.
I like the simplicity and lack of electrical parts, It would be nice if all American would make a 55 gallon pressure cooker.
Anyone know if they ever make bigger pressure cookers then the 941?
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drake89
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18953262 - 10/09/13 08:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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bubbasbarrels.com, i don't see it listed, but give them a call. it's like 1200 for a 100 gallon drum with 55gal boiler, all stainless. holds 50 5lb bags.
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Aleon
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Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: drake89]
#18953304 - 10/09/13 08:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: bubbasbarrels.com, i don't see it listed, but give them a call. it's like 1200 for a 100 gallon drum with 55gal boiler, all stainless. holds 50 5lb bags.
Are you serious about this? 100GAL Drum and 55GALboiler? is this what you are using?
-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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mycoloco
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: Aleon]
#18953547 - 10/09/13 10:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I wonder if Utube has any movies of someone trying to get a Bubbabarrel to 15 psi!!
BOOM!!!
-------------------- The universe is an illusion of the living.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: mycoloco]
#18953637 - 10/09/13 10:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If using a drum, it should always have a 5 psi relief valve installed. 55 gallon drums can hold nearly 8 psi before warping. Once they start to warp, they twist the lid ring enough to start letting the pressure out. This is by design, as they're often left outdoors in very hot climates when half full. They soon build pressure, but vent it rather than exploding.
That said, wanting to do 50 to 100 bags without a boiler is a tall order. Any pressure cooker that large would be too big to lift and would require equipment just to move around. If you want something homebuilt and you have welding and piping skills, you might look into my wood fired steam boiler used on our mushroom farm for the third year in a row now. The boiler now feeds four 55 gallon drum sterilizers, each holding 18 to 20 six pound substrate bags. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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wood chip
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RR said "That said, wanting to do 50 to 100 bags without a boiler is a tall order"
Why?
25 bags per basket moved next to the flow hood on a cart is a lot easy then inoculating them.
I don't see any reason to move the cooker if a drain is installed at the bottom. Obviously wheels would be convenient with certain set ups. For example, cooking outside and rolling the cooker into a clean room or lab to unload.
A boiler seems like over kill unless you are retorting large amounts of bags. I have never understood why one would bother with a boiler with such a small amount of material. (100 bags and under). It is not as efficient, and typically require electrical source, sensors, more water, and extra piping additionally, moving heat and heating other materials the boiler itself, is a energy loss. The boiler makes the cook longer also becuase it has to heat up first before steam can be generated. Also, parts of boilers fail before "non electric all American pressure cookers" and quality retorts which seem to outlast the boilers.
The retort unicorn sells pictured at the bottom in the link can supposedly be used with or without a boiler. In the case of this retort, why would one want to use a a boiler?
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laughingsol
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18955510 - 10/09/13 05:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wood chip said: why would one want to use a a boiler?
Cost prohibitiveness of the retorts. If you've got the cash, lay it down on one of those units and you'll be happy. Most people are trying to get into this business on the cheap and the boiler set-ups require little start-up capital.
-------------------- Be Well, Be Blessed Trade List
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drake89
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Quote:
Aleon said:
Quote:
drake89 said: bubbasbarrels.com, i don't see it listed, but give them a call. it's like 1200 for a 100 gallon drum with 55gal boiler, all stainless. holds 50 5lb bags.
Are you serious about this? 100GAL Drum and 55GALboiler? is this what you are using?
yes. i'm thinking about getting another one, or figuring out if i can run it twice a day. it's pretty badass. joe (amanita virosa) 'designed' it, but I guess it all comes back to RR.
Quote:
mycoloco said: I wonder if Utube has any movies of someone trying to get a Bubbabarrel to 15 psi!!
BOOM!!!
not sure if sarcasm or self promotion, but Carl says that people do that all the time. my switch only goes up to 5psi, but i wouldn't want to work inside with a pressure bomb anyway. maybe the 15psi people are distilling? that seems to be a lot of their business.
Quote:
laughingsol said:
Quote:
wood chip said: why would one want to use a a boiler?
Cost prohibitiveness of the retorts. If you've got the cash, lay it down on one of those units and you'll be happy. Most people are trying to get into this business on the cheap and the boiler set-ups require little start-up capital.
i've been on labx.com and the cheapest retort i found was $8k, 30 years old, and 3000 miles away. it would probably require a lot more to get it running, like a boiler.
I'm happy running at 3psi for 8 hours. The boiler is quite efficient, it stays really hot cause it's so insulated. so there's no 'cold' start except the first one. you could do a 100 gal barrel upright, but you couldn't fit more bags, and it would be a total pain to load and unload versus mounting it horizontally.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: drake89]
#18956824 - 10/09/13 09:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Where does one get a 100 gallon barrel? RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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wood chip
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The model Unicorn imports was under 3000 dollars. I think it can hold 100 gallons. The dimension are 3 feet diameter and 4 feet deep which is much larger than a 55 gallon drum.
If I had an all American pressure cooker that size I would be set because I could sterilize 100 bags in a couple of hours using a high pressure propane burner. A drain on the bottom and four stack able racks would perfect the thing.
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Aleon
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: drake89]
#18958268 - 10/10/13 08:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said:
Quote:
Aleon said:
Quote:
drake89 said: bubbasbarrels.com, i don't see it listed, but give them a call. it's like 1200 for a 100 gallon drum with 55gal boiler, all stainless. holds 50 5lb bags.
Are you serious about this? 100GAL Drum and 55GALboiler? is this what you are using?
yes. i'm thinking about getting another one, or figuring out if i can run it twice a day. it's pretty badass. joe (amanita virosa) 'designed' it, but I guess it all comes back to RR.
Yeah RR definitely made a groundbreaking stride in giving small scale mushrooms growers a chance. One of my (friendly)competitors has a 300bag autoclave; its hard to compete and i need more sterilizer capacity. If i was interested in one of those would i just call them and ask about it? Does it come with all the parts? Any more info on this unit would be awesome. I would build my own, but sadly i have no skills in this department (though i wish i could learn.) I do have 1 friend that can weld so that should help. Thanks drake
-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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drake89
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: Aleon]
#18958310 - 10/10/13 08:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Where does one get a 100 gallon barrel? RR
http://bubbasbarrels.com/100-gallon-stainless-steel-drum
may be kind of pricey shipping TN -> OR or WA
Quote:
Aleon said:
Quote:
drake89 said:
Quote:
Aleon said:
Quote:
drake89 said: bubbasbarrels.com, i don't see it listed, but give them a call. it's like 1200 for a 100 gallon drum with 55gal boiler, all stainless. holds 50 5lb bags.
Are you serious about this? 100GAL Drum and 55GALboiler? is this what you are using?
yes. i'm thinking about getting another one, or figuring out if i can run it twice a day. it's pretty badass. joe (amanita virosa) 'designed' it, but I guess it all comes back to RR.
Yeah RR definitely made a groundbreaking stride in giving small scale mushrooms growers a chance. One of my (friendly)competitors has a 300bag autoclave; its hard to compete and i need more sterilizer capacity. If i was interested in one of those would i just call them and ask about it? Does it come with all the parts? Any more info on this unit would be awesome. I would build my own, but sadly i have no skills in this department (though i wish i could learn.) I do have 1 friend that can weld so that should help. Thanks drake
I dug through my email and found the proper link for those of you interested in buying one. Or at least looking at it. I'm not sure why he doesn't make it more accessible.
http://www.bubbasbarrels.com/ashville-mushroom-sterilizer-50-deposit
Aleon, I would be happy to get you a parts list and tell you how to wire the thing up. It's quite simple. I think I paid Joe a $40 consulting fee, so maybe he'll chime in here.
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Aleon
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: drake89]
#18958324 - 10/10/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks alot man. So without shipping its $1300; with shipping, burner, all other parts, and shelves for inside 100gal drum it would maybe be around $2000 said and done? And you said you can fit 50 bags, is this how much you do? Not essential but pictures would be sweet.
-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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drake89
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: Aleon]
#18958363 - 10/10/13 08:52 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, it has no burner, you screw a hot water heater element into the boiler that is attached to the bottom of the 100gal barrel.
The boiler also has a pressure switch, so it acts like an AA sterilizer. Mine is set at 3psi. That's the most expensive part. The stainless piping is also expensive, but it should last forever. Yes it was around $2000 all said and done. It fits around 50-52 5pound bags. You could run it twice a day if you did 6 hour runs at 5 psi, I reckon. I could never find that chart for low pressure runs but we do 8-9 hours from 'cold' start at 2-3psi.
Here's the only pic I could dig up, you can see the boiler hanging out in the background. And that blue barrel up top is no longer in use, it scares me just looking at it now!
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solarity
mm... my favourite food



Registered: 03/31/09
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: drake89]
#18959405 - 10/10/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have a 180gal open topped tank with a piece of plastic covered PUR board cut to fit just inside to give a variable height lid. The tank is hooked up to a 7kw sauna steamer -the bottom box in the pic. A couple of thermostats for measuring tank and sub internal temps and some control circuitry for timings and measuring (top box). I use it for cold water soaking of dried sub, hot water soaking of grain in sandbags (just run the steam with water in it), steam pasteurising, sterilising grain bags and sub. bags. It has mesh over the steam pipe and a drain -it drains stuff really well. Everything is done in net vegetable bags, sand bags or sub bags. Total cost less than $300.

-------------------- Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!
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wood chip
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: solarity]
#18960019 - 10/10/13 03:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Solarity
What kind of racks do you use and how to you remove them? Also, when you say sterilize do you mean with pressure or just a long pasteurization.
You got a good price. How does a 7kw sauna steam generator differ from a boiler? I am assuming it is electric and uses a lot of electricity.
Besides cook time, my interest in a massive pressure cooker is to reduce energy cost, water use and avoid all electrical components.
How many 5 lb bags of substrate can you run on a single cook?
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Shu
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18960338 - 10/10/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: drake89]
#18960722 - 10/10/13 06:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
drake89 said: Yeah, it has no burner, you screw a hot water heater element into the boiler that is attached to the bottom of the 100gal barrel.
The boiler also has a pressure switch, so it acts like an AA sterilizer. Mine is set at 3psi. That's the most expensive part. The stainless piping is also expensive, but it should last forever. Yes it was around $2000 all said and done. It fits around 50-52 5pound bags. You could run it twice a day if you did 6 hour runs at 5 psi, I reckon. I could never find that chart for low pressure runs but we do 8-9 hours from 'cold' start at 2-3psi.
Here's the only pic I could dig up, you can see the boiler hanging out in the background. And that blue barrel up top is no longer in use, it scares me just looking at it now!

You can buy a new boiler for 1500.00 and it will run 5-10 of those barrels @ 2psi all day long on very little gas. 3hp boiler would do that.
I am installing these in December and I am running them with a 7HP boiler that ran me 2900.00 with mechanical auto feeder. I calculated it will take 30-40 min to get them to 14psi and full of steam.  Lipa
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drake89
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: lipa]
#18961041 - 10/10/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said:
Quote:
drake89 said: Yeah, it has no burner, you screw a hot water heater element into the boiler that is attached to the bottom of the 100gal barrel.
The boiler also has a pressure switch, so it acts like an AA sterilizer. Mine is set at 3psi. That's the most expensive part. The stainless piping is also expensive, but it should last forever. Yes it was around $2000 all said and done. It fits around 50-52 5pound bags. You could run it twice a day if you did 6 hour runs at 5 psi, I reckon. I could never find that chart for low pressure runs but we do 8-9 hours from 'cold' start at 2-3psi.
Here's the only pic I could dig up, you can see the boiler hanging out in the background. And that blue barrel up top is no longer in use, it scares me just looking at it now!

You can buy a new boiler for 1500.00 and it will run 5-10 of those barrels @ 2psi all day long on very little gas. 3hp boiler would do that.
I am installing these in December and I am running them with a 7HP boiler that ran me 2900.00 with mechanical auto feeder. I calculated it will take 30-40 min to get them to 14psi and full of steam.  Lipa
care to elaborate what those things are? i know i've seen them in another thread. they look like some pretty nice pressure vessels.
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: drake89]
#18961353 - 10/10/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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They are simply as you said. Pressure vessels, retort, autoclave whatever application you want to use them for. These are old ones commonly found in hospitals. i believe they were made by American Sterilizer Co. in the early 1900. I will be using them to produce spawn for our local mushroom farms. They will hold about 800 lbs of substrate per run each.
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wood chip
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: lipa]
#18962043 - 10/10/13 11:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Those are retorts, autoclaves have steam jackets.
Unfortunately, those simple retorts are very hard to find. Do you know anyone selling them?
How do you hook it up to the boiler? Are there five holes in it? 1. Pressure gauge 2 safety blow out 3. drain 4. steam inlet. 5. steam vent/trap
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Aleon
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18962798 - 10/11/13 07:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks for the info Lipa. You say the boiler for those was $3K but how much is it to install it? And are there any codes or regulations for using a boiler like this? Appreciate any info you can share on commercial retorts/boilers. Also best of luck to you; looks like you'll have a heady sized grow set-up here in December
-------------------- Mushroom medicines available at: www.swordandshieldwellness.com
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18964250 - 10/11/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wood chip said: Those are retorts, autoclaves have steam jackets.
Unfortunately, those simple retorts are very hard to find. Do you know anyone selling them?
How do you hook it up to the boiler? Are there five holes in it? 1. Pressure gauge 2 safety blow out 3. drain 4. steam inlet. 5. steam vent/trap
All of those. We have all the steam traps, vents n such. I just sent the relief valves in to get re-calibrated. I am just dreading all the piping I am going to have to buy. Ive already dumped 00,000$ into this project.
I will be installing my boiler myself with help.
The piping is specific but not at all hard. Follow the recommendations from the boiler manufacturer for near piping. Thats very important. As for codes, it is a low pressure boiler and I will be cycling it between 14-15 psi. Anything above 15psi or in some jurisdictions over a certain BHP require a boiler engineer on duty. I will be on site at all times and it will have safety lights and alarms for visual and audible safety.
Its very important to take time to sit down and learn about boilers and your specific application so everything runs smoothly. Also to plan out your maintenance routines on paper and to follow them to the T. If you don't your boiler will not last very long from what I have read due to oxidization.
Here is a great site to learn about steam engineering.
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wood chip
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: lipa]
#18968139 - 10/12/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It is for those" boiler reasons" I started this post. I don't want to make more than 150 bags per run, and I want to sterilize my substrates.
A large pressure cooker would be great because there little chance of failure, no regulation, cheaper, no pipes, no electrical components, no scaling if using di water, less water, and less fuel. It seems like the 100 gallon pressure cookers fall in the space of neglected dimensions. College and hospitals infrequently use pressure cookers even when sterilizing small things. They use autoclaves instead of pressure cookers. Of course pressure cooker requires one to control the heat source which is not very hard work. Once empirically determined, which is based on mass and burners btus, the all American cooker has be turned down one time after it gets to pressure and will maintain that pressure for many hours with no monitoring maybe even days. Because growing shiitake mushrooms using bags is highly repetitive and burner control can be discovered over time I really like the idea of pressure cooking 100 bags per run. To me, growing shiitake mushrooms profitably at the 100 bag per day level centers around sterilization and controls in the cropping house, provided one is skilled in making spawn, has quality strains and has a source of free and consistent substrate.
Those retorts lipa shows are very old yet I am sure as solid as an all American pressure cooker. They have the added advantage of straight sides. I wonder how many boilers have been hooked up to it in the past.
I was thinking maybe a 55 gallon or larger pressure cooker or even a 55 gallon drum heated by a burner would heat unevenly. Which makes for inefficient heating and may require a steam boiler. Although I can find no one with experience using them.
I brought this up in another post, but still ask the question. Is there any reason why RR and friends use a boiler instead of direct fire for a single 55 gallon drum other than the loading and unloading convenience the drum offers being in a horizontal position and other non sterilization activities for example, heating the house etc.?
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wood chip
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18968919 - 10/12/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I posted before I read that link Lipa posted. I am completely wrong about the efficiency.
A well designed boiler is much more efficient and able to transfer much more heat energy from the fuel. A gas burner heating a pressure cooker or 55 gallon drum boiler looses a lot of heat energy.
Even a small pressure cooker would be cheaper to operate using a very small efficient boiler.
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18970149 - 10/12/13 10:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wood chip said: Well I posted before I read that link Lipa posted. I am completely wrong about the efficiency.
A gas burner heating a pressure cooker or 55 gallon drum boiler looses a lot of heat energy.
I bet this is why RR switched to wood. Which by the way is sweet man labor only fuel. I would love to have a wood burning boiler.
I calculated it will cost me $33.25 in LPG to fire each run of 800lbs of substrate @ 15psi for 2.5 hours at my local LPG rate. I think thats fairy good for the amount of substrate.
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wood chip
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: lipa]
#18972544 - 10/13/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lipa said
''I calculated it will cost me $33.25 in LPG to fire each run of 800lbs of substrate @ 15psi for 2.5 hours at my local LPG rate"
Interesting, cooking six 5lb bags per run using an a 941 All American takes 26 days to sterilize the same amount. (150 blocks)
I can do this on a single 10 gallon tank of propane. I sterilize for 90 minutes at 17 psi. on a 15,000 btu propane stove.
If your calculation is accurate (assuming you have a high efficiency boiler) then at the 800 lb a day magnitude I doubt a behemoth pressure cooker is significantly more expensive to run when coupled an efficient external burner. My concern is uneven heating, however, if bags are raised high above the water shouldn't the steam temp/pressure be the nearly the same throughout once the air is removed?
Thanks for posting that link there is a lot of information.
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solarity
mm... my favourite food



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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: wood chip]
#18977300 - 10/14/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wood chip said: Solarity
What kind of racks do you use and how to you remove them? Also, when you say sterilize do you mean with pressure or just a long pasteurization.
You got a good price. How does a 7kw sauna steam generator differ from a boiler? I am assuming it is electric and uses a lot of electricity.
Besides cook time, my interest in a massive pressure cooker is to reduce energy cost, water use and avoid all electrical components.
How many 5 lb bags of substrate can you run on a single cook?
Double wire shelves on top of the bags to separate them. Just lift out the bags. Pasteurised sub is in 30lb net bags so no sweat.
12 hrs at 95 C for "Super Pasteurisation"
It uses a 7kw electric element to boil water and make steam. But it switches in and out to keep the tank at 95C so about half that, costs roughly $6/run for spawn/sub.
I run smaller spawn bags and bigger sub bags but I guess about 80 5lb bags.
-------------------- Commercial exotics farmer for 8 years - now sold up!
Edited by solarity (10/14/13 04:03 PM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: lipa]
#18978657 - 10/14/13 08:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said:
I am installing these in December and I am running them with a 7HP boiler that ran me 2900.00 with mechanical auto feeder. I calculated it will take 30-40 min to get them to 14psi and full of steam.  Lipa
I'll bet it takes at least two to three hours to come up to pressure. Remember, until all the substrates within the unit reach 100C, there will be no pressure starting to build. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Ahhh yes. I had a doubt about my results. So it takes that time when empty.
I don't know how to factor in the density of the bags so I guess I will have to wait and see how it pans out.
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Shu
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: lipa]
#18987152 - 10/16/13 05:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
lipa said: Ahhh yes. I had a doubt about my results. So it takes that time when empty.
I don't know how to factor in the density of the bags so I guess I will have to wait and see how it pans out.
How many/what weight of bags in an autoclave run?
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lipa

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 2,684
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Re: pressure cooker limits [Re: Shu]
#18987794 - 10/16/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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80 @10lbs each per run.
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