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OfflineNOM NOM
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Automated Chamber- would this work?
    #18946960 - 10/07/13 09:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm trying to control the humidity, temperature, and FAE of a small greenhouse-like fruiting  chamber. Stealthily. I'd prefer not to use humidifiers.

I was considering using a small aquarium heater submerged in about 2" of water solution in the chamber bottom. Using hydrogen peroxide or something (recommendations?) in the water to kill contams. Depending on the effectiveness of this perlite could be added to slightly above water level to increase evaporation.

The air temperature would be at 84-86 for post casing, then 74-78 for pinning. Rh preferably 90%, then 100%, respectively.

FAE would be provided by a Hepa filtered intake.

The system will have closed-loop control using temp, Rh, and CO2 sensors, as well as data logging. So lots of info to use to tweak.

If Rh became too high for certain stages, such as harvesting, FAE could be increased to blow out the humidity.

Later might add cold-shock capability using the water.

Thoughts?


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OfflineWolfieNuke
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18947264 - 10/07/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Have you done any grows without an automated setup? If not, I would start a basic SGFC setup or Mono-tub before overthinking the entire process...

-Could it work? Sure! Sounds like you have thought through the idea.
-Will it be a large expense and consume a load of time designing and sourcing RTD's, CO2, and  Hygrometers and setup a digital/analog control system? Yep!
-Is it worth it unless you are doing very large grows with little to no free time to spare? Probably not.

I'm an electrical engineer, and unless you intend on getting high quality devices, you may be unhappy with the results. Digital hygrometers are not cheap and have low precision. RTD's need to be water-resistant or can fail - possibly overheating your setup. Without a humidifier, you can only increase humidity by increasing power to the water heater and if temperature is already high, you run into a catch-22...

There are many others that talk about automated setups... The best usually seem to be mono-tubs without any 'fancy' controls.


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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: WolfieNuke]
    #18947343 - 10/07/13 10:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

monotub is automated. polyfil properly stuffed in tub and a fan to circulate air in the room


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OfflineNOM NOM
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: WolfieNuke]
    #18947355 - 10/07/13 10:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I have the equipment and know how to run an arduino based automated system, but I've never used it for growing.
The sensor i have is a Digital Temperature and Humidity Stainless Steel Probe (SEN0148). Think this will work accurately for this application?

I was hoping a bed of perlite sticking out of the water could achieve the higher humidity without the higher temperature, but you're right it might not be able to. Time to run a test I guess :shrug:


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OfflineNOM NOM
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18947362 - 10/07/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

mono tubs take up more space then i have unfortunately :/


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OfflineNOM NOM
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: WolfieNuke]
    #18947410 - 10/07/13 10:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WolfieNuke said:
Have you done any grows without an automated setup? If not, I would start a basic SGFC setup or Mono-tub before overthinking the entire process...





sorry i misread that. yes I've done a few grows using monotubs.


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InvisibleGlobal_Roaming
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18947422 - 10/07/13 10:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In a closed-loop system, the FAE wouldn't be sufficient - it would just recycle increasingly C02-heavy air. You need an open-loop system in my experience (I have a partially-successful automated mono) for proper FAE.

My system uses a timer-controlled fogger inside a water reservoir with air-holes connected via tubing to intake holes on the top of the tub. Holes around the bottom sides of the tub are connected to an timer-controlled exhaust fan. When the fogger and fan activate it draws fog-laden fresh air through the tub and out the exhaust holes. RH is controlled by the on/off duty cycle-timers.

It took quite a bit of trial and error, and I'm still not 100% satisfied.


--------------------
/peace out brothers and sisters
:aweyeah:


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OfflineNOM NOM
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18947435 - 10/07/13 11:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Comprende, sounds like a nice setup.By closed loop control i meant sensor feedback to change the environment though, not a closed airflow system.


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OfflineWolfieNuke
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: Global_Roaming]
    #18947459 - 10/07/13 11:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

From http://www.dfrobot.com/wiki/index.php/Digital_Temperature_and_Humidity_sensor_(With_Stainless_Steel_Probe)_(SKU:SEN0148)#Specifition
Humidity accuracy:±5.0%RH




That is a low precision humidity sensor, but unfortunately the best you can get at a reasonable price.

The Arduino is a great device to create an automated control system. I do think you are limited without a fogger or humidifier.

CO2 sensors for the Arduino do not seem to be water-safe... Another thing to look into, or possibly ignore for the time being since you may be able to just use a timing routine to automate FAE.

Sounds like a great project.
Let me know if you want to start an open-source project for it. I have plenty of hardware level programming experience.


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InvisibleGlobal_Roaming
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18947463 - 10/07/13 11:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

NOM NOM said:
Comprende, sounds like a nice setup.By closed loop control i meant sensor feedback to change the environment though, not a closed airflow system.




Ah, OK.

Incidentally I don't really think my mono is so nice haha. It looks like something from a cheap sci-fi flick with green and clear tubes running everywhere, wires all over the place, strange noises emanating from different parts etc. But when the overhead LEDs are on, and the fog is being drawn into the chamber and through the exhaust tubes, it looks so fucking cool - little streams of vapour just pour in from above, collect for a couple of inches on the bottom and eventually are sucked out. Watching it in action is one of my fave things to do while tripping.


--------------------
/peace out brothers and sisters
:aweyeah:


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: Global_Roaming]
    #18947556 - 10/07/13 11:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This is not an automatic hobby. It needs to be hands on for best results...the only thing me and RR agree on lol


--------------------
Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this.

OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX
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I have these seeds:
Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.


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OfflineNOM NOM
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: WolfieNuke]
    #18947578 - 10/07/13 11:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WolfieNuke said:
Let me know if you want to start an open-source project for it. I have plenty of hardware level programming experience.




I'd definitely be down, I'll get back to you once i get it rolling a bit. Still gotta make the FC :P

Thanks for the help!


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18947652 - 10/08/13 12:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

NOM NOM said:
I'm trying to control the humidity, temperature, and FAE of a small greenhouse-like fruiting  chamber. Stealthily. I'd prefer not to use humidifiers.

I was considering using a small aquarium heater submerged in about 2" of water solution in the chamber bottom. Using hydrogen peroxide or something (recommendations?) in the water to kill contams. Depending on the effectiveness of this perlite could be added to slightly above water level to increase evaporation.

The air temperature would be at 84-86 for post casing, then 74-78 for pinning. Rh preferably 90%, then 100%, respectively.

FAE would be provided by a Hepa filtered intake.

The system will have closed-loop control using temp, Rh, and CO2 sensors, as well as data logging. So lots of info to use to tweak.

If Rh became too high for certain stages, such as harvesting, FAE could be increased to blow out the humidity.

Later might add cold-shock capability using the water.

Thoughts?




There are quite a few issues with this...

Here is my preferred mini-GH setup.

Don't heat the inside of the chamber, you will lose humidity due to a temperature differential between the interior and exterior of the chamber.

Perlite will not humidify a GH alone. In an SGFC you have constant airflow through the perlite into the chamber, providing FAE and humidity. Perlite sitting in the GH will not provide humiditiy the same way.

You are hung up on humidity. You need to worry about FAE.

Also, there is no such thing as too high an RH. Lack of FAE is the issue.

My setup linked above can be run discretely, it requires only a cool mist (filter-type) humidifier on low and an ultrasonic.

But before you try to fill a greenhouse, you should probably consider starting small and not risking an epic fail.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


Edited by FrankHorrigan (10/08/13 02:43 AM)


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OfflineSubspecies
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: dark3st]
    #18947709 - 10/08/13 12:29 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

darkset, many stages of this hobby are set and forget. With the proper understanding and setup there is no reason why other aspects can't be automated.

The poor performance of digital hygrometers at the ranges we are interested in is a problem. You could always build a hair gauge with the output actuating optical or mechanical switches at your trigger points. If you program, you can also use something like Open_CV(Open Source Computer Vision Library) and write a simple program for a webcam to monitor a hair gauge and send signals to your controller. Then you can just use an unmodified commercial hair gauge.

The simplicity of a hair hygrometer:
http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?t=47


--------------------
Fungi nutrition requirements


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: Subspecies]
    #18947714 - 10/08/13 12:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Except that his setup will never achieve proper conditions for reasons stated above. I don't see how a hygrometer will improve upon this.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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OfflineSubspecies
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18947903 - 10/08/13 01:43 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Who cares Frank? The point is there are(cheap)ways to get high precision automated controls between 80-100% humidity. It just requires knowledge and a little skill.


--------------------
Fungi nutrition requirements


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: Subspecies]
    #18947908 - 10/08/13 01:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I bet the OP cares. He's looking for a good setup, not a "hair hygrometer." :thumbup:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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OfflineSubspecies
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18947944 - 10/08/13 02:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well now Frank, I'm pretty sure you are being disingenuous, but maybe you really are ignorant. Either way your belligerence is boring.


--------------------
Fungi nutrition requirements


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18947952 - 10/08/13 02:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

FrankHorrigan said:
I bet the OP cares. He's looking for a good setup, not a "hair hygrometer." :thumbup:




:whathesaid:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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OfflineSubspecies
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18947968 - 10/08/13 02:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

NOM NOM said:
I'm trying to control the humidity...Rh preferably 90%, then 100%, respectively.




The accuracy and precision of electronic hygrometers at these ranges is pathetic. If he wants half arsed control of his experiment, then he can go with your option, sure.


--------------------
Fungi nutrition requirements


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: Subspecies]
    #18947972 - 10/08/13 02:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't measure the humidity in my mini-GH.

And yet it works wonderfully. I get amazing yields off exotics, cubes, and edibles all the same, with only slight adjustments in the timings of the humdifiers.

That is why I say that in my setup I linked the OP, you do not need a hygrometer. You can visually ID issues before they become a problem, even without a casing layer.

However, my issue with your recommendation is that it does not help the fact that the OP's idea is full of flaws that will hinder his cultivation progress. A hygrometer alone will not fix that.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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OfflineSubspecies
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18948002 - 10/08/13 02:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

And that may well suit him perfectly Frank. Or it may not, and it may not suit everyone else.

Theres nothing wrong with options.


--------------------
Fungi nutrition requirements


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18948070 - 10/08/13 03:33 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A hygrometer with a probe head that is permanently inside the chamber doesn´t really work. when your humidity is high, the probe head will just get wet over time, and won´t workanymoe. If you want to measure humidity, you need to do it by manually. However, a few per cent more or less are not a problem as long as its somewhere above 70 or 80%

Isnt a hepa-filtered intake for FAE a bit overdone? Besides, your fresh air will be quite a bit dry. I sometimes used to connect a membrane pump to a water filter (= a bottle full of water, maybe with some mineral wool in it to make the bubbles float up more slowlly in order to increase the humidity uptake and the filtering).

Hydrogen peroxide to keep the water clean works, but it sometimes corrodes plastic and rubber. I prefer PVP-iodine which works the same way as peroxide, but isnt as agressive. it just has this strong scent which is not quite nice. Sorbic acid can also be used, although it doesn´t always kill each and any microbes in the water. Its non-toxic for many higher organsims and usually used as a preservant for fruit juices (I sometimes used E202 = Potassium sorbate).


--------------------
Ich will Eins werden mit dem Gewürm auf dem Felde!


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OfflineSubspecies
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #18948165 - 10/08/13 04:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If your calibration cycle is not regular enough to deal with probe saturation, alternating sampling and drying phases can be done(automated of course). If you want accuracy, you will need to calibrate regularly anyway. Oversaturation, and therefore excess condensation can be controlled by the automated system. Electronic probes are installed in saturated environments, the precedent is there. I'm looking into psychrometer(wet and dry bulb) performance atm, seeing how they cope with extended high humidity. Do you have any experience with them?

With the water filter, what about benzyl alcohol that injectors use to make bacteriostatic water? Seems like it could also be a possibility. I have no idea of its stability. H2O2 is notoriously unstable(though not as bad as many make out).


--------------------
Fungi nutrition requirements


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: Subspecies]
    #18948281 - 10/08/13 06:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Subspecies said:
Oversaturation, and therefore excess condensation can be controlled by the automated system.



You do realize that condensation is from a temperature difference and not from the air being over saturated right?

You can have 100% humidity with absolutely no condensation, and you can have 10% humidity with some condensation.

Just putting that out there....


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OfflineSubspecies
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18948489 - 10/08/13 07:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I do realise that, but temperature control(even a differential) is relatively easy to design and attain, so I didn't bother addressing it. If you temperature cycle, dropping the temp on saturated air will force excess water to condense. If you lower humidity first(or simultaneously) it can be avoided. Similarly over-misting/fogging a saturated environment will lead to droplet accumulation. A properly designed and built system can control these things - automatically.


--------------------
Fungi nutrition requirements


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Automated Chamber- would this work? [Re: NOM NOM]
    #18948541 - 10/08/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
This thread sucks.

Rather than arguing the same failed points from the last 20 years of OMC as if they were the very first ones to think of this stuff, noobs would be well advised to learn to use the site search engine.

It's the dream of every young geek who enters the hobby to fully automate his setup and then hide it in a closet where mommy can't find it, as if she never goes there. Noobs also obsess over humidity for some reason when fresh air and light are far more important.

Such is not the purpose of this site, nor has science developed transducers which will operate in the conditions we require.  Lazy people always fail at this because you quite frankly need to be checking your crop several times daily to remove moldy substrates and do other chores.
RR


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