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Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18942953 - 10/07/13 12:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There is no problem with determinism and randomness operating together. QM and relativity both predict outcomes despite the fact that there must be some interaction between them.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18942982 - 10/07/13 12:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

They predict outcomes within probability, not precise outcomes.

Like, you know it will occur somewhere with a specific range, like here, or here, or here, but not here or here.

It's not precise predication that would occur if the act was predetermined.

The literal and actual occurrence is unknown.

So you're wrong. But nice try.

Another example would be drawing a circle and saying the lightning will strike somewhere within the circle, but the exact location of the strike cannot be determined.

Look up probability wave, wave function and wave packet if you want to learn more.


Edited by teknix (10/07/13 12:26 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18943058 - 10/07/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There are no precise outcomes but that doesn't mean physical laws aren't deterministic. What you're suggesting is a unified theory.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944477 - 10/07/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If predetermination implies predictability, and random event cannot be predicted then they are not predetermined. If there are events that aren't predetermined, and these events are a part of the universe then the universe cannot be said to be predetermined.

Duh!

So it follows that at the end of the day, we are random entities, not self-willed ones.

Note to audience: I happen to believe in free will, but not for reasons that can be easily defended. I've posted on the topic extensively so I won't do it again here. Search if you're curious.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18944491 - 10/07/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So then how is one option chosen over another?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944531 - 10/07/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So then how is one option chosen over another?

I don't know. Currently nobody does, but neuroscience is closing in on the answer. And I have speculated on this. Again, if you're curious, use the search engine.

In any case, conclusions do not follow from not knowing something. That's like concluding that an unidentified light in the sky is an alien from alpha centauri on an interstellar vacation with his wife and two kids.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18944534 - 10/07/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I'm sure we can think of something . . . that is most probable . . . Oh wait, people already have . . . IT's called free-will.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18944592 - 10/07/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Currently nobody does

This has been my position all along. :imspecial:  And since it feels like we have free will the question is moot imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944646 - 10/07/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, there is a most probable answer, just as with anything else.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944690 - 10/07/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's subjective still at this point. If not the issue would have been basically resolved before we were born.  I've sat through this discussion for eight years here and we are no closer to having it resolved.  That's why I'm not involving myself much until I hear something new.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944694 - 10/07/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, if the universe isn't predetermined then what are you left with.

(Use deductive reasoning here)

A or B

Not A

Therefore . . . .


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944703 - 10/07/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It is just not possible for you to consider determinism and random factors working together?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18944716 - 10/07/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Not if the universe is said to be predetermined.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18944732 - 10/07/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Predeterminism is an old paradigm that is slowly dying out, most people don't really believe that shit anymore, but there are those idiots who continue to carry on and pass the torch to the gullible and naΓ―ve youth, which is why is takes a long time for a paradigm shift to take effect.

But once most people gain the knowledge necessary, it is pretty easy to drop the whole silly idea imo.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944735 - 10/07/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Well, if the universe isn't predetermined then what are you left with.

(Use deductive reasoning here)

A or B

Not A

Therefore . . . .




No one knows.  Human ideas about this stuff are always changing.  In a few years we could be thinking something totally difference based on some new findings which are also temporary.

My guess is ultimately, for us, reality is unknowable.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefoliocb
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944738 - 10/07/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i think most of your 'ideas' are silly

:ass:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: foliocb]
    #18944749 - 10/07/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks, if only you had any profound ideas of your own.

Why don't you put your idea's out there to be critiqued?

:eek:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944761 - 10/07/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Well, if the universe isn't predetermined then what are you left with.

(Use deductive reasoning here)

A or B

Not A

Therefore . . . .




No one knows.  Human ideas about this stuff are always changing.  In a few years we could be thinking something totally difference based on some new findings which are also temporary.

My guess is ultimately, for us, reality is unknowable.




Sure it's unknowable, but that doesn't mean we can't consider what is most probable.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944770 - 10/07/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Of course. Have at it.  I'll go along with the general consensus, (for today). 

I'm too stoned to care in other words. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944776 - 10/07/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Must be nice.

:tongue:


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Shop: Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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