Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Buy Kratom Powder & Leaf

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
OfflineDeathMadeTangible
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 3
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
What if it's all just chemical?
    #18942930 - 10/06/13 11:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.

But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.

Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecircastes
Big Questions Small Head
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya Flag
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #18943144 - 10/07/13 01:45 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It is all just chemical but the nervous system and reality aren't separate.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 20 hours
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: circastes]
    #18943581 - 10/07/13 06:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The human has been formulated to be as responsive as possible to everything so far necessary. To that end chemicals within and without are duplicated at least by analog so that knowledge fits the environment.  While one is young and ranging their chemical makeup is far different from when they are old.  This one factor means one will see things differently just by aging alone. The visions which appeal when you can keep an internal warmth against the cold, and skip a few days meals, indulge in various substances and talk endlessly are very different from when your bones ache, your finger are knotted, your emotions are flat, you're so hungry you could die (and it's just a few minutes off the mark). Your philosophy and everything you believe are going to change. Based in your psychophysical pharmacopeia and age.  Sorry to be a bummer. The trips of youth are long forgotten.  And it doesn't work anymore. Where are my slippers? Is that winter coming on - youch my lower back.

Yesterday I loved my pride which I had worked hard for, I was a snob in all things. But today I love my old house, and my bed. I don't think I could go on without them. I have at last become a materialist.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: eve69]
    #18943644 - 10/07/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So true, even now at 60 I do more in a day then most at 40 but it's nothing much compared to when I was actually 40 and you're right about it hurting a lot now. And the emotions are flat mostly.  And romantic love, the basis of all  my youthful dreams is now just a bad joke.

    Kratom has come to my rescue in old age and I'm semi blissed out for hours a day. It's really pleasant much of the time.  Waiting out my inevitable end. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 20 hours
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icelander]
    #18943868 - 10/07/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not to be glum, but you've got to find a new love. There's still romance in there yet, I bet. I found a new love at 45 in guitar and music.  You need to find your true love for the remains, and don't tell me it's Shroomery S&M.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: eve69]
    #18943879 - 10/07/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's Kratom. :heart:  And it's true love. :nicesmile:

Music is always there of course. I listen to music for hours a day.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #18944049 - 10/07/13 10:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I wouldnt say that the chemical physical makeup of the body is necessarily responsible for spiritual experiences any more than the possibility of the external spiritual possibly manifesting or manipulating the inner physical and chemical. Who knows as far as that goes.

I think its why a tribe might be the best for the soul. The young ones energy could possibly feed up to the elders in the attunement that smaller homogenized groups provide.

Extended beings if you will, instead of scrambled chaotic charges going every which way like a modern society.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletribesman
Never satisfied
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Yogi1]
    #18944094 - 10/07/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DeathMadeTangible said:
Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.

But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.

Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?




It's all just an electro-chemical interplay; catalyzing on a spacio-temporal canvas.


Edited by tribesman (10/07/13 10:40 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeathMadeTangible
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 3
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
    #18944154 - 10/07/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tribesman said:
Quote:

DeathMadeTangible said:
Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.

But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.

Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?




It's all just an electro-chemical interplay; catalyzing on a spacio-temporal canvas.




Summary: So basically there's nothing genuinely spiritual or ethereal about psychedelics...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
    #18944157 - 10/07/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tribesman said:
Quote:

DeathMadeTangible said:
Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.

But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.

Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?




It's all just an electro-chemical interplay; catalyzing on a spacio-temporal canvas.




So all physical? I not smart nuff to figure out my own.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletribesman
Never satisfied
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #18944224 - 10/07/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

DeathMadeTangible said:
Summary: So basically there's nothing genuinely spiritual or ethereal about psychedelics...

No more than in life, it's a novelty of experience. If you give credence to
what others on the shroomery, and beyond advise; then the same awe inspiring
experiences can be had without the need for a psychedelic infusion Though it should
be remembered that those same experiences are still a coalescence of the brain's
Electrochemical functions within space and time.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletribesman
Never satisfied
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Yogi1]
    #18944246 - 10/07/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yogi1 said:
So all physical? I not smart nuff to figure out my own.

Awareness is something special, and I'm certainly " not smart nuff "
to claim I understand it, but everything beyond the singularity of
our personal consciousness seems to be physical.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte Flag
Last seen: 24 days, 20 hours
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
    #18944257 - 10/07/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tribesman said:
Yogi1 said:
So all physical? I not smart nuff to figure out my own.

Awareness is something special, and I'm certainly " not smart nuff "
to claim I understand it, but everything beyond the singularity of
our personal consciousness seems to be physical.





I think awareness is this which we think of as God. Why the divine was never hidden. It is the awareness itself. That doesn't mean there isn't a physical or chemical analog. Or helper. I for one would like some soma of old where it was fixed from the extinct relative of ephedra.


--------------------
...or something







Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletribesman
Never satisfied
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: eve69]
    #18944323 - 10/07/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I'm a mfkzt man myself  :reptiliawen:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: circastes]
    #18945436 - 10/07/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
It is all just chemical but the nervous system and reality aren't separate.





Exactly. OP your question arises out of a misunderstanding of your relationship to reality.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icelander]
    #18945442 - 10/07/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So true, even now at 60 I do more in a day then most at 40 but it's nothing much compared to when I was actually 40 and you're right about it hurting a lot now. And the emotions are flat mostly.  And romantic love, the basis of all  my youthful dreams is now just a bad joke.

    Kratom has come to my rescue in old age and I'm semi blissed out for hours a day. It's really pleasant much of the time.  Waiting out my inevitable end. :satansmoking:




When I used kratom daily it lost its effect very quickly. I got bored with it after a couple of weeks I think.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
    #18945591 - 10/07/13 04:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Too bad for you. :sad:

If you use small doses of quality Kratom it's a total energizer and creates a mellow energy for work or play.  At higher doses it's pretty much like an opium high.  I use a relatively low dose so I can get going and have fun and get shit done. But if I lay down I get easily blissed out on it.  I think it's pretty great so far.  And it's legal, and it's cheap. Goes very well with weed if you are into that.  I'm usually not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,855
Last seen: 23 minutes, 40 seconds
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible] * 2
    #18945663 - 10/07/13 04:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineWithinity
Untitled
Male

Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 1,357
Loc: Côte d’Ivoire
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
    #18945735 - 10/07/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tribesman said:
I'm a mfkzt man myself  :reptiliawen:





Are you referring to Monotonic Gold? Do you have any resources to read into about the subject?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icelander]
    #18945894 - 10/07/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Too bad for you. :sad:

If you use small doses of quality Kratom it's a total energizer and creates a mellow energy for work or play.  At higher doses it's pretty much like an opium high.  I use a relatively low dose so I can get going and have fun and get shit done. But if I lay down I get easily blissed out on it.  I think it's pretty great so far.  And it's legal, and it's cheap. Goes very well with weed if you are into that.  I'm usually not.




How much do you use and what kind of kratom? I actually think I'm going to give it another try.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
    #18945945 - 10/07/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I use Green Malay and think it's awesome stuff.  Three grams or less is a powerful dose for me and I'm usually a hard head.  It's more euphoric and energizing then some others and it's longer lasting then almost all other strains. I can usually get 8 hours out of a dose.  If you want to know where I get it PM me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #18946006 - 10/07/13 06:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




Yeah Ive never understood arguments like what if its just a bunch of chemicals.  Why dont we question other experiences then? What if pain is just an electrical message traveling through your nervous system? if that is true, does that mean its alright with you if  i cut your arm off?

"chemicals" and molecules and atoms are not more real than our experiences. Rather chemicals are an aspect of our experience. They are what our sensory input appears as when we examine it with certain instruments.  Why would you assume that a certain sensory appearance in your own consciousness was more real than you were?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEywa_devotee
Goddess Worshiper
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 1,088
Loc: State of Confusion, Arkan... Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
    #18951588 - 10/08/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This is the one question that is the scariest to ask by the embodied ego, and it is usually asked after an ego death experience. You are a chemical- it's called DNA, but your consciousness itself seems to be beyond physical chemistry. This means that when you physically die you loose everything but pure awareness itself, even your ego itself dies.

This revelation is an existential threat to a system that is based on physical existence as the only and ultimate reality. It is no small coincidence that the United Nations put any hallucinogenic drug they could think of, even ones like DMT that would be extremely unlikely to be abused, on the world wide ban list.


--------------------
"Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeathMadeTangible
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 3
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
    #19098121 - 11/06/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




Yeah Ive never understood arguments like what if its just a bunch of chemicals.  Why dont we question other experiences then? What if pain is just an electrical message traveling through your nervous system? if that is true, does that mean its alright with you if  i cut your arm off?

"chemicals" and molecules and atoms are not more real than our experiences. Rather chemicals are an aspect of our experience. They are what our sensory input appears as when we examine it with certain instruments.  Why would you assume that a certain sensory appearance in your own consciousness was more real than you were?





The difference is that if you experience divinity from meditation, that's of your own volition and doing. You're not doing anything artificial by meditating.

If you experience divinity from drugs, that's because you're fucking with the normal biochemical/bioelectric metabolic processes. Taking DMT or shrooms is 100% artificial and thus the experiences must also be 100% artificial, regardless of how real they feel.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,855
Last seen: 23 minutes, 40 seconds
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #19098340 - 11/06/13 11:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So I don't volitionally take a psychedelic? Huh...


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemeatables
Psychonaut
Male User Gallery

Registered: 08/13/13
Posts: 82
Loc: Innerspace
Last seen: 5 years, 7 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Kickle]
    #19099005 - 11/07/13 04:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




I agree... the only thing that legitimizes the experience is the effect it has on reality... u have a spiritual experience and decide to change your life based on that experience then the experience has manifested itself in reality through your actions... why religious extremists blow stuff (people and themselves) up?


--------------------
Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #19099746 - 11/07/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it used tone called "nothing buttery,' reductionism that is. All Level All Quadrants (AQAL) is Ken Wilber's very intelligent way of taxonomizing multiple vectors of phenomena. Chemistry can be reduced to physics, physics can be reduced to quantum mechanics, and at the quantum level, scientists are discovering that the presence of an observer changes the way energy behaves, as waves or as particles. An observer! Consciousness. Why? As psychologist C.G. Jung and physicist Wolfgang Pauli wanted to illustrate (before Jung's death), space-time (matter) and consciousness, are two sides of the same Reality. Materialistic reductionists are half blind. Those with one-sided bias to sensory perception without awareness of intuition (and all the magickal mystical psychical things that go along with intuition) are profoundly handicapped human beings. For such people, transcendental horizons of experience are incomprehensible. They have no capacity to 'connect the dots' of certain qualities of experiences and fail to see globally. They cannot see an emergent picture, a pattern, but are only able to see disconnected, discrete phenomena, and these half blind people then defend their blindness by accusing those of us who can see an emergent reality that they cannot, delusional.

Such half blind individuals can be very intelligent, but such intellection merely separates and dissects, it does not synthesize very well, so holistic pictures that emerge from connections they cannot apprehend, especially via Synchronicity '' an acausal connecting principal," is again, relegated to delusion. A one-sided bias of Sensing + Thinking functions, minus Intuition, (and to a lesser extent Feeling, which is often what Intuition is mislabeled), traps materialist reductionists in a density of conceptual thought that fails to take consciousness into consideration. And if consciousness IS considered, it is reduced to an epiphenomenon of matter, not recognized as co-existent with space-time, existing independently of nervous systems that perceive it (rather than create it). Why, I have witnessed two oxidized rain gutters picking up a local radio broadcast which was audible. I've built a radio that used one Germanium diode and a coil of wire, to make a tunable radio. Radio is metaphor for nervous system here, radio waves for omnipresent consciousness. It is philosophical Idealism, not Materialism.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #19099794 - 11/07/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Great thread.  My take:

Our brains are gatekeepers.  They work in the interest of preserving the species.

You cannot walk around 24/7 in a state of ecstatic bliss and cosmic consciousness.  To do so would impede your ability to eat a balanced diet, find a suitable mate, fuck with your mate, and attend to and/or make more babies.

As Alan Watts once suggested, if, every time you approached a red light while driving, you beheld the glory of the universe in the beautiful redness therein and had an overwhelmingly powerful mystical experience, you would most likely crash your car -- resulting in your DNA being splattered all over the pavement.

That would not be a good thing, from the perspective of preserving the species.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYogi1
Squatchin
Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19099889 - 11/07/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a believer that one day science and spirituality will be one, simply through scientific discovery.

That being said, the half blind person is most likely the one that reads a book mistranslated over generations and completely devoid of accuracy and takes it as truth on a hunch. That being said any inflexible mind is more than half blind, even if what they believe is correct after all


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Yogi1]
    #19100011 - 11/07/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yogi1 said:
I'm a believer that one day science and spirituality will be one, simply through scientific discovery.



I believe there are forbidden zones where science cannot, and will never be able to, go.  Humankind will never be all-knowing.

"All-knowing-ness" is not advantageous to our species' survival, as I see it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Kickle]
    #19100081 - 11/07/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




:thumbup:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineIcyus
KavitārkikasiṃHa
Male

Registered: 11/07/13
Posts: 3,502
Loc: Inbetween.
Last seen: 8 years, 27 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: all this beauty] * 1
    #19100114 - 11/07/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think we have a brain because of our mind, and that reality is created by our interpetation of the recieved energy input... more or less quantum physics, but noone seem to agree..

Though when we talk to entites, it isnt because we created them, but rather opened us up to what has been there all along, or both? Maybe when we talk to someone, nomatter who... it was because we created them and we basicly already know everything.. we just do not understand it yet, so we create other people of which can tell us what we know... ... All is relative, and in the end yes and no is the same thing..

Anyway it really needs a mad (full spectrum) mind to understand relativity and quantum physics, as the reason they are discarded from acedemia so they may keep living in their materealistic world, but that is an other subject.

I, who realize that the world is crammed with ... fools, instead of never talking to anyone I would rather speak to them, in the hope they may provide any kind of knowledge.. remembering the saying; "even the most beautyful lotusflower grows out of mud"...  my meaning that you shouldnt discard any chance of learning, nomatter the source :wink: good luck!


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinebloodbrother778
Super Chimpanzee
Registered: 10/26/07
Posts: 418
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icyus]
    #19103156 - 11/07/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it is chemical
but chemistry does not capture the essence of the experience

to me the cool part of psychedelic experiences isn't the colors or pretty lights or pleasant sensations, it is the realizations that we have during those experiences and what we learn from them

two people can have the same experience but react to them completely differently
whether you do or do not have that aha light bulb moment is up to you entirely and has nothing to do with the chemistry

back in the day i was hardcore into science and thought i knew everything

a DMT trip made me realize that I knew nothing and made me start to reexamine everything that I thought I knew

this is a very real thing and changed the direction of my entire life

chemistry or not....noone can argue with results


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: bloodbrother778]
    #19104269 - 11/08/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFishOilTheKid
Ascended
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 50 minutes
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: White Beard]
    #19104315 - 11/08/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #19104956 - 11/08/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible] * 1
    #19105762 - 11/08/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Summary: So basically there's nothing genuinely spiritual or ethereal about psychedelics...


Well, that's not my conclusion. Intention is the invariant feature of consciousness. Consciousness is always intentional, even if its intention is consciousness intending to know consciousness. While the intended use of psychedelics CAN be "spiritual," psychedelics are not intrinsically spiritual or physical, but both. Moreover, in between the spiritual and the physical, stands the psychical. Aldous Huxley called the mind "amphibious," because it could identify with the physical or the spiritual, like a frog can belong to aquatic or terrestrial realms. This tripartite division of reality manifests conceptually on spiritual levels in Jewish Kabbalism (Kether-Chokmah-Binah), Hinduism's Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva), and Christianity (Father-Son-Holy Spirit).

The intended use of psychedelics, and their value, has a lot to do with the type of person making the evaluation. I am into typologies, to assess what kind of person is making a judgement. The ancient Gnostics used a typology that has correspondence with Western alchemy, Indian alchemy (Rasayana) or Ayurvedic philosophy. The same divisions apply today. The Gnostics had their Hylic-Psychichoi-Pneumatikoi people, corresponding to today's Materialist-Psychic-Spiritual people. Psychic doesn't mean people with crystal balls and Tarot cards. Psychics are people who rely on 'faith' - not just religious faith, but faith even on the 5 senses and reason. That too is faith.

Some people take psychedelics for kicks, or entertainment and get nothing more out of the experience than inebriation and sensory distortions. Other people take psychedelics and are able to expand their psychical nature such that they may perceive some of the things they 'believe,' like auras, or PSI functions (telepathy, clairvoyance, etc.). Spiritual people are open to and often receive deep insights into the nature of Reality on its various planes: physical, psychic (several levels), and spiritual (several levels). Francis Crick, for example, disclosed that he first envisioned the DNA helix shape while under the influence of LSD. Philip K. Dick correctly diagnosed his son's near-fatal strangulated hernia to physicians without any medical knowledge or sensory information (a clairvoyant perception). These men had psychic insight into physical reality. Spiritual insights into the nature of Ultimate Reality has been recorded for millennia in various traditions, but modern people on psychedelics have discovered these same insights afresh, on their own, under the influence of psychedelics, which expanded their typologically spiritual nature to new levels.

A same bottle of wine is little more than an intoxicant to a wino (physical), it may represent a valued emotional experience to a wine connoisseur (psychical), or it may assume the status of a sacrament (spiritual) when consecrated by an ordained priest. This 3-fold nature applies to human personalities as it does to the rest of nature, according to various models. The Tamas-Rajas-Sattva division in Indian thought corresponds exactly to the Salt-Sulphur-Mercury division of Western alchemy, and likewise the Hylic-Psychic-Pneumatic division of the Gnostics, and todays Materialist-Psychic-Spiritual people.

Bottom line: The answer to your inquiry depends on the type of person you ask.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: White Beard]
    #19105766 - 11/08/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:rofl2:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblehTx
(:
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: circastes]
    #19113310 - 11/10/13 04:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Of course its all chemistry..

Does that really change anything?

Does it add or subtract to the experience?

Yes, tripping happens due to chemicals and chemistry in the brain..but we have discovered that (in psilocybins case atleast, likely the same route of action with other psychedelics) that this chemistry lowers activity in the area of the brain which is responsible for 'filtering' information, essentially allowing more information to ease (or shove) its way through..

meaning when we trip, we may actually be seeing things closer to what they actually are, including ourselves.



Quote:

circastes said:
It is all just chemical but the nervous system and reality aren't separate.




“We look for the Secret - the Philosopher's Stone, the Elixir of the Wise, Supreme Enlightenment, 'God' or whatever...and all the time it is carrying us about...It is the human nervous system itself.”
Robert Anton Wilson

Circastes, Have you read any RAW?
:thumbup:


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineall this beauty
Stranger
Registered: 02/13/13
Posts: 779
Last seen: 10 years, 28 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: hTx]
    #19113862 - 11/10/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Of course its all chemistry..

Does that really change anything?

Does it add or subtract to the experience?

Yes, tripping happens due to chemicals and chemistry in the brain..but we have discovered that (in psilocybins case at least, likely the same route of action with other psychedelics) that this chemistry lowers activity in the area of the brain which is responsible for 'filtering' information, essentially allowing more information to ease (or shove) its way through..

meaning when we trip, we may actually be seeing things closer to what they actually are, including ourselves.




Yes.  That's exactly it.

Our brains are gatekeepers.  Certain information -- certain knowledge -- is "forbidden," because having that information in the forefront is not good for us as living, breathing, replicating beings.

Certain drugs temporarily disable the "gate guards."

Certain people, through various physical and mental practices, can disable the guards without taking drugs -- but that's a rare and difficult thing for most people to do.

(All in my opinion, of course.)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinestzacrack
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 3,869
Loc: United States
Last seen: 10 minutes, 47 seconds
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icelander]
    #19114263 - 11/10/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So true, even now at 60 I do more in a day then most at 40 but it's nothing much compared to when I was actually 40 and you're right about it hurting a lot now. And the emotions are flat mostly.  And romantic love, the basis of all  my youthful dreams is now just a bad joke.

    Kratom has come to my rescue in old age and I'm semi blissed out for hours a day. It's really pleasant much of the time.  Waiting out my inevitable end. :satansmoking:




you're a cool dude yo, at least you're honest.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinecrkhd
☾☼☽

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 months, 8 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: stzacrack]
    #19114742 - 11/10/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEric573

Registered: 07/22/13
Posts: 145
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: crkhd]
    #19119024 - 11/11/13 04:38 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Someone already said this but I'd like to say it in my own way. Why does it matter if psychedelic substances induce a purely chemical experience? It doesn't. Everything is physical experience. Everything in this world is made up of the same building blocks arranged in different ways as far as we can tell.
Why do we think physical reality is less sacred than nonphysical? What is the nonphysical? I suspect it is a creation of the mind because it does not recognize the greatness of the world around us.


--------------------
-Eric


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlines240779
Male Unread Journal User Gallery
Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 12,880
Last seen: 2 months, 9 days
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #19122544 - 11/11/13 07:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DeathMadeTangible said:
But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.





False assumption. I've read some intriguing reports about telepathy between users and strange interactions with animals.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: s240779]
    #19125272 - 11/12/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

intriguing reports do not constitute fact. :tongue:  The Onion posts intriguing reports all the time.  People not in on the joke even believe them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Buy Kratom Powder & Leaf


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Heaven is coming to earth *the sequel*
( 1 2 3 4 ... 51 52 )
zorbman 178,039 1,020 03/15/18 06:53 PM
by BrendanFlock
* Ignorance has prevailed.. Gomp 555 5 11/21/07 06:54 PM
by JoseLibrado
* Rethinking your sleep schedule
( 1 2 3 all )
c0sm0nautt 4,293 40 12/26/09 03:45 PM
by Poid
* Ritual Use of Psychedelics astralpiper 4,521 12 10/17/05 07:29 PM
by astralpiper
* Purify AlteredAgain 889 5 03/28/07 07:34 AM
by leery11
* Fasting to reach spirituallity
( 1 2 3 4 all )
iluvfungi 12,178 76 12/16/09 07:08 AM
by solstice
* Good Days and Bad Days... c0sm0nautt 351 8 02/05/10 11:38 AM
by Chronic7
* Vegetarianism and Psychic Powers?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
deCypher 7,810 65 02/15/10 04:06 PM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
2,879 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.04 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 12 queries.