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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
    #18945945 - 10/07/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I use Green Malay and think it's awesome stuff.  Three grams or less is a powerful dose for me and I'm usually a hard head.  It's more euphoric and energizing then some others and it's longer lasting then almost all other strains. I can usually get 8 hours out of a dose.  If you want to know where I get it PM me.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #18946006 - 10/07/13 06:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




Yeah Ive never understood arguments like what if its just a bunch of chemicals.  Why dont we question other experiences then? What if pain is just an electrical message traveling through your nervous system? if that is true, does that mean its alright with you if  i cut your arm off?

"chemicals" and molecules and atoms are not more real than our experiences. Rather chemicals are an aspect of our experience. They are what our sensory input appears as when we examine it with certain instruments.  Why would you assume that a certain sensory appearance in your own consciousness was more real than you were?


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OfflineEywa_devotee
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
    #18951588 - 10/08/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This is the one question that is the scariest to ask by the embodied ego, and it is usually asked after an ego death experience. You are a chemical- it's called DNA, but your consciousness itself seems to be beyond physical chemistry. This means that when you physically die you loose everything but pure awareness itself, even your ego itself dies.

This revelation is an existential threat to a system that is based on physical existence as the only and ultimate reality. It is no small coincidence that the United Nations put any hallucinogenic drug they could think of, even ones like DMT that would be extremely unlikely to be abused, on the world wide ban list.


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"Love one another." "To Love is to know me." "Love is the Law, Love under Will." "In Compassion, all sorrows end." Regardless of the Master, the message is the same- Choose love and you shall live, Choose Fear and you shall die. Help bring peace to this Earth: Love one another, and serve others before yourself.


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OfflineDeathMadeTangible
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
    #19098121 - 11/06/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




Yeah Ive never understood arguments like what if its just a bunch of chemicals.  Why dont we question other experiences then? What if pain is just an electrical message traveling through your nervous system? if that is true, does that mean its alright with you if  i cut your arm off?

"chemicals" and molecules and atoms are not more real than our experiences. Rather chemicals are an aspect of our experience. They are what our sensory input appears as when we examine it with certain instruments.  Why would you assume that a certain sensory appearance in your own consciousness was more real than you were?





The difference is that if you experience divinity from meditation, that's of your own volition and doing. You're not doing anything artificial by meditating.

If you experience divinity from drugs, that's because you're fucking with the normal biochemical/bioelectric metabolic processes. Taking DMT or shrooms is 100% artificial and thus the experiences must also be 100% artificial, regardless of how real they feel.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #19098340 - 11/06/13 11:25 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

So I don't volitionally take a psychedelic? Huh...


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinemeatables
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Kickle]
    #19099005 - 11/07/13 04:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




I agree... the only thing that legitimizes the experience is the effect it has on reality... u have a spiritual experience and decide to change your life based on that experience then the experience has manifested itself in reality through your actions... why religious extremists blow stuff (people and themselves) up?


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Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #19099746 - 11/07/13 10:36 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it used tone called "nothing buttery,' reductionism that is. All Level All Quadrants (AQAL) is Ken Wilber's very intelligent way of taxonomizing multiple vectors of phenomena. Chemistry can be reduced to physics, physics can be reduced to quantum mechanics, and at the quantum level, scientists are discovering that the presence of an observer changes the way energy behaves, as waves or as particles. An observer! Consciousness. Why? As psychologist C.G. Jung and physicist Wolfgang Pauli wanted to illustrate (before Jung's death), space-time (matter) and consciousness, are two sides of the same Reality. Materialistic reductionists are half blind. Those with one-sided bias to sensory perception without awareness of intuition (and all the magickal mystical psychical things that go along with intuition) are profoundly handicapped human beings. For such people, transcendental horizons of experience are incomprehensible. They have no capacity to 'connect the dots' of certain qualities of experiences and fail to see globally. They cannot see an emergent picture, a pattern, but are only able to see disconnected, discrete phenomena, and these half blind people then defend their blindness by accusing those of us who can see an emergent reality that they cannot, delusional.

Such half blind individuals can be very intelligent, but such intellection merely separates and dissects, it does not synthesize very well, so holistic pictures that emerge from connections they cannot apprehend, especially via Synchronicity '' an acausal connecting principal," is again, relegated to delusion. A one-sided bias of Sensing + Thinking functions, minus Intuition, (and to a lesser extent Feeling, which is often what Intuition is mislabeled), traps materialist reductionists in a density of conceptual thought that fails to take consciousness into consideration. And if consciousness IS considered, it is reduced to an epiphenomenon of matter, not recognized as co-existent with space-time, existing independently of nervous systems that perceive it (rather than create it). Why, I have witnessed two oxidized rain gutters picking up a local radio broadcast which was audible. I've built a radio that used one Germanium diode and a coil of wire, to make a tunable radio. Radio is metaphor for nervous system here, radio waves for omnipresent consciousness. It is philosophical Idealism, not Materialism.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible]
    #19099794 - 11/07/13 10:45 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Great thread.  My take:

Our brains are gatekeepers.  They work in the interest of preserving the species.

You cannot walk around 24/7 in a state of ecstatic bliss and cosmic consciousness.  To do so would impede your ability to eat a balanced diet, find a suitable mate, fuck with your mate, and attend to and/or make more babies.

As Alan Watts once suggested, if, every time you approached a red light while driving, you beheld the glory of the universe in the beautiful redness therein and had an overwhelmingly powerful mystical experience, you would most likely crash your car -- resulting in your DNA being splattered all over the pavement.

That would not be a good thing, from the perspective of preserving the species.


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: all this beauty]
    #19099889 - 11/07/13 11:08 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I'm a believer that one day science and spirituality will be one, simply through scientific discovery.

That being said, the half blind person is most likely the one that reads a book mistranslated over generations and completely devoid of accuracy and takes it as truth on a hunch. That being said any inflexible mind is more than half blind, even if what they believe is correct after all


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Yogi1]
    #19100011 - 11/07/13 11:32 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yogi1 said:
I'm a believer that one day science and spirituality will be one, simply through scientific discovery.



I believe there are forbidden zones where science cannot, and will never be able to, go.  Humankind will never be all-knowing.

"All-knowing-ness" is not advantageous to our species' survival, as I see it.


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Kickle]
    #19100081 - 11/07/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?





The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?

IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?




:thumbup:


--------------------


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OfflineIcyus
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: all this beauty] * 1
    #19100114 - 11/07/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

I think we have a brain because of our mind, and that reality is created by our interpetation of the recieved energy input... more or less quantum physics, but noone seem to agree..

Though when we talk to entites, it isnt because we created them, but rather opened us up to what has been there all along, or both? Maybe when we talk to someone, nomatter who... it was because we created them and we basicly already know everything.. we just do not understand it yet, so we create other people of which can tell us what we know... ... All is relative, and in the end yes and no is the same thing..

Anyway it really needs a mad (full spectrum) mind to understand relativity and quantum physics, as the reason they are discarded from acedemia so they may keep living in their materealistic world, but that is an other subject.

I, who realize that the world is crammed with ... fools, instead of never talking to anyone I would rather speak to them, in the hope they may provide any kind of knowledge.. remembering the saying; "even the most beautyful lotusflower grows out of mud"...  my meaning that you shouldnt discard any chance of learning, nomatter the source :wink: good luck!


--------------------
And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.


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Offlinebloodbrother778
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icyus]
    #19103156 - 11/07/13 10:08 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

it is chemical
but chemistry does not capture the essence of the experience

to me the cool part of psychedelic experiences isn't the colors or pretty lights or pleasant sensations, it is the realizations that we have during those experiences and what we learn from them

two people can have the same experience but react to them completely differently
whether you do or do not have that aha light bulb moment is up to you entirely and has nothing to do with the chemistry

back in the day i was hardcore into science and thought i knew everything

a DMT trip made me realize that I knew nothing and made me start to reexamine everything that I thought I knew

this is a very real thing and changed the direction of my entire life

chemistry or not....noone can argue with results


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: bloodbrother778]
    #19104269 - 11/08/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: White Beard]
    #19104315 - 11/08/13 08:18 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #19104956 - 11/08/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: DeathMadeTangible] * 1
    #19105762 - 11/08/13 01:45 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Summary: So basically there's nothing genuinely spiritual or ethereal about psychedelics...


Well, that's not my conclusion. Intention is the invariant feature of consciousness. Consciousness is always intentional, even if its intention is consciousness intending to know consciousness. While the intended use of psychedelics CAN be "spiritual," psychedelics are not intrinsically spiritual or physical, but both. Moreover, in between the spiritual and the physical, stands the psychical. Aldous Huxley called the mind "amphibious," because it could identify with the physical or the spiritual, like a frog can belong to aquatic or terrestrial realms. This tripartite division of reality manifests conceptually on spiritual levels in Jewish Kabbalism (Kether-Chokmah-Binah), Hinduism's Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva), and Christianity (Father-Son-Holy Spirit).

The intended use of psychedelics, and their value, has a lot to do with the type of person making the evaluation. I am into typologies, to assess what kind of person is making a judgement. The ancient Gnostics used a typology that has correspondence with Western alchemy, Indian alchemy (Rasayana) or Ayurvedic philosophy. The same divisions apply today. The Gnostics had their Hylic-Psychichoi-Pneumatikoi people, corresponding to today's Materialist-Psychic-Spiritual people. Psychic doesn't mean people with crystal balls and Tarot cards. Psychics are people who rely on 'faith' - not just religious faith, but faith even on the 5 senses and reason. That too is faith.

Some people take psychedelics for kicks, or entertainment and get nothing more out of the experience than inebriation and sensory distortions. Other people take psychedelics and are able to expand their psychical nature such that they may perceive some of the things they 'believe,' like auras, or PSI functions (telepathy, clairvoyance, etc.). Spiritual people are open to and often receive deep insights into the nature of Reality on its various planes: physical, psychic (several levels), and spiritual (several levels). Francis Crick, for example, disclosed that he first envisioned the DNA helix shape while under the influence of LSD. Philip K. Dick correctly diagnosed his son's near-fatal strangulated hernia to physicians without any medical knowledge or sensory information (a clairvoyant perception). These men had psychic insight into physical reality. Spiritual insights into the nature of Ultimate Reality has been recorded for millennia in various traditions, but modern people on psychedelics have discovered these same insights afresh, on their own, under the influence of psychedelics, which expanded their typologically spiritual nature to new levels.

A same bottle of wine is little more than an intoxicant to a wino (physical), it may represent a valued emotional experience to a wine connoisseur (psychical), or it may assume the status of a sacrament (spiritual) when consecrated by an ordained priest. This 3-fold nature applies to human personalities as it does to the rest of nature, according to various models. The Tamas-Rajas-Sattva division in Indian thought corresponds exactly to the Salt-Sulphur-Mercury division of Western alchemy, and likewise the Hylic-Psychic-Pneumatic division of the Gnostics, and todays Materialist-Psychic-Spiritual people.

Bottom line: The answer to your inquiry depends on the type of person you ask.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: White Beard]
    #19105766 - 11/08/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 2 months ago)

:rofl2:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: circastes]
    #19113310 - 11/10/13 04:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Of course its all chemistry..

Does that really change anything?

Does it add or subtract to the experience?

Yes, tripping happens due to chemicals and chemistry in the brain..but we have discovered that (in psilocybins case atleast, likely the same route of action with other psychedelics) that this chemistry lowers activity in the area of the brain which is responsible for 'filtering' information, essentially allowing more information to ease (or shove) its way through..

meaning when we trip, we may actually be seeing things closer to what they actually are, including ourselves.



Quote:

circastes said:
It is all just chemical but the nervous system and reality aren't separate.




“We look for the Secret - the Philosopher's Stone, the Elixir of the Wise, Supreme Enlightenment, 'God' or whatever...and all the time it is carrying us about...It is the human nervous system itself.”
Robert Anton Wilson

Circastes, Have you read any RAW?
:thumbup:


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Offlineall this beauty
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Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: hTx]
    #19113862 - 11/10/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Of course its all chemistry..

Does that really change anything?

Does it add or subtract to the experience?

Yes, tripping happens due to chemicals and chemistry in the brain..but we have discovered that (in psilocybins case at least, likely the same route of action with other psychedelics) that this chemistry lowers activity in the area of the brain which is responsible for 'filtering' information, essentially allowing more information to ease (or shove) its way through..

meaning when we trip, we may actually be seeing things closer to what they actually are, including ourselves.




Yes.  That's exactly it.

Our brains are gatekeepers.  Certain information -- certain knowledge -- is "forbidden," because having that information in the forefront is not good for us as living, breathing, replicating beings.

Certain drugs temporarily disable the "gate guards."

Certain people, through various physical and mental practices, can disable the guards without taking drugs -- but that's a rare and difficult thing for most people to do.

(All in my opinion, of course.)


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