|
DeathMadeTangible
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 3
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
|
What if it's all just chemical?
#18942930 - 10/06/13 11:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.
But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.
Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
|
It is all just chemical but the nervous system and reality aren't separate.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 21 hours
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: circastes]
#18943581 - 10/07/13 06:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
The human has been formulated to be as responsive as possible to everything so far necessary. To that end chemicals within and without are duplicated at least by analog so that knowledge fits the environment. While one is young and ranging their chemical makeup is far different from when they are old. This one factor means one will see things differently just by aging alone. The visions which appeal when you can keep an internal warmth against the cold, and skip a few days meals, indulge in various substances and talk endlessly are very different from when your bones ache, your finger are knotted, your emotions are flat, you're so hungry you could die (and it's just a few minutes off the mark). Your philosophy and everything you believe are going to change. Based in your psychophysical pharmacopeia and age. Sorry to be a bummer. The trips of youth are long forgotten. And it doesn't work anymore. Where are my slippers? Is that winter coming on - youch my lower back.
Yesterday I loved my pride which I had worked hard for, I was a snob in all things. But today I love my old house, and my bed. I don't think I could go on without them. I have at last become a materialist.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: eve69]
#18943644 - 10/07/13 07:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
So true, even now at 60 I do more in a day then most at 40 but it's nothing much compared to when I was actually 40 and you're right about it hurting a lot now. And the emotions are flat mostly. And romantic love, the basis of all my youthful dreams is now just a bad joke.
Kratom has come to my rescue in old age and I'm semi blissed out for hours a day. It's really pleasant much of the time. Waiting out my inevitable end.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 21 hours
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icelander]
#18943868 - 10/07/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Not to be glum, but you've got to find a new love. There's still romance in there yet, I bet. I found a new love at 45 in guitar and music. You need to find your true love for the remains, and don't tell me it's Shroomery S&M.
-------------------- ...or something
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: eve69]
#18943879 - 10/07/13 09:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
It's Kratom. And it's true love. 
Music is always there of course. I listen to music for hours a day.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
|
I wouldnt say that the chemical physical makeup of the body is necessarily responsible for spiritual experiences any more than the possibility of the external spiritual possibly manifesting or manipulating the inner physical and chemical. Who knows as far as that goes.
I think its why a tribe might be the best for the soul. The young ones energy could possibly feed up to the elders in the attunement that smaller homogenized groups provide.
Extended beings if you will, instead of scrambled chaotic charges going every which way like a modern society.
|
tribesman
Never satisfied



Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Yogi1]
#18944094 - 10/07/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DeathMadeTangible said: Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.
But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.
Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?
It's all just an electro-chemical interplay; catalyzing on a spacio-temporal canvas.
Edited by tribesman (10/07/13 10:40 AM)
|
DeathMadeTangible
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/13
Posts: 3
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
#18944154 - 10/07/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
tribesman said:
Quote:
DeathMadeTangible said: Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.
But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.
Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?
It's all just an electro-chemical interplay; catalyzing on a spacio-temporal canvas.
Summary: So basically there's nothing genuinely spiritual or ethereal about psychedelics...
|
Yogi1
Squatchin

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 1,015
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
#18944157 - 10/07/13 10:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
tribesman said:
Quote:
DeathMadeTangible said: Some of people's most mystical, incorporeal and spiritual experiences are under the influence of psychedelics. Most, if not all, major psychonauts report communication with deity/god-like entities, either humanoid or abstract in appearance.
But realistically speaking, if you take enough shrooms or DMT or [insert choice hallucinogen here] and you report OBE/OOBE experiences like seeing or telepathically communicating with "God," you still have 0 concrete evidence that such things exist outside of your own brain.After all, chemical compounds produce a variety of physical effects from low blood pressure, high blood pressure, neurotoxicity, neuroprotection, liver detoxification, liver failure, anxiolytic, anxiousness, increased heart rate, decreased heart rate, death, etc.
Through chemical means, we can create virtually any physical effect desired (and sometimes not desired.) What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?
It's all just an electro-chemical interplay; catalyzing on a spacio-temporal canvas.
So all physical? I not smart nuff to figure out my own.
|
tribesman
Never satisfied



Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
|
|
DeathMadeTangible said: Summary: So basically there's nothing genuinely spiritual or ethereal about psychedelics...
No more than in life, it's a novelty of experience. If you give credence to what others on the shroomery, and beyond advise; then the same awe inspiring experiences can be had without the need for a psychedelic infusion Though it should be remembered that those same experiences are still a coalescence of the brain's Electrochemical functions within space and time.
|
tribesman
Never satisfied



Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Yogi1]
#18944246 - 10/07/13 11:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yogi1 said: So all physical? I not smart nuff to figure out my own.
Awareness is something special, and I'm certainly " not smart nuff " to claim I understand it, but everything beyond the singularity of our personal consciousness seems to be physical.
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 21 hours
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
#18944257 - 10/07/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
tribesman said: Yogi1 said: So all physical? I not smart nuff to figure out my own.
Awareness is something special, and I'm certainly " not smart nuff " to claim I understand it, but everything beyond the singularity of our personal consciousness seems to be physical.
I think awareness is this which we think of as God. Why the divine was never hidden. It is the awareness itself. That doesn't mean there isn't a physical or chemical analog. Or helper. I for one would like some soma of old where it was fixed from the extinct relative of ephedra.
-------------------- ...or something
|
tribesman
Never satisfied



Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 948
Loc: Down by the river
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: eve69]
#18944323 - 10/07/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I'm a mfkzt man myself
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: circastes]
#18945436 - 10/07/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
circastes said: It is all just chemical but the nervous system and reality aren't separate.
Exactly. OP your question arises out of a misunderstanding of your relationship to reality.
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icelander]
#18945442 - 10/07/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: So true, even now at 60 I do more in a day then most at 40 but it's nothing much compared to when I was actually 40 and you're right about it hurting a lot now. And the emotions are flat mostly. And romantic love, the basis of all my youthful dreams is now just a bad joke.
Kratom has come to my rescue in old age and I'm semi blissed out for hours a day. It's really pleasant much of the time. Waiting out my inevitable end. 
When I used kratom daily it lost its effect very quickly. I got bored with it after a couple of weeks I think.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Deviate]
#18945591 - 10/07/13 04:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Too bad for you. 
If you use small doses of quality Kratom it's a total energizer and creates a mellow energy for work or play. At higher doses it's pretty much like an opium high. I use a relatively low dose so I can get going and have fun and get shit done. But if I lay down I get easily blissed out on it. I think it's pretty great so far. And it's legal, and it's cheap. Goes very well with weed if you are into that. I'm usually not.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 3 minutes, 4 seconds
|
|
Quote:
What evidence then do we have that any of the experiences under the influence of chemicals like DMT or Psilocin/Psilocybin are legitimate and not just the byproduct of introducing a soup of chemicals that screw with normal human biology?
The same question can be asked of any perception imaginable. From seeing your reflection in the mirror to seeing the light change from green to yellow to red. If it's just chemical what makes it legitimate?
IMO it's the potential benefits and potential consequences which make these perceptions legitimate. If there aren't any, then yah, who cares?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Withinity
Untitled


Registered: 04/11/10
Posts: 1,357
Loc: Côte d’Ivoire
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: tribesman]
#18945735 - 10/07/13 04:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
tribesman said: I'm a mfkzt man myself 
Are you referring to Monotonic Gold? Do you have any resources to read into about the subject?
--------------------
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: What if it's all just chemical? [Re: Icelander]
#18945894 - 10/07/13 05:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Too bad for you. 
If you use small doses of quality Kratom it's a total energizer and creates a mellow energy for work or play. At higher doses it's pretty much like an opium high. I use a relatively low dose so I can get going and have fun and get shit done. But if I lay down I get easily blissed out on it. I think it's pretty great so far. And it's legal, and it's cheap. Goes very well with weed if you are into that. I'm usually not.
How much do you use and what kind of kratom? I actually think I'm going to give it another try.
|
|