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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935017 - 10/05/13 07:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Because the organism makes the decision, out of many choices, which one they will act on.

All of the options are existing, like in SchrΓΆdinger's cat, but the difference is that we get choose which option will prevail, and that decision says a lot about us and who we are.




But might not our current choice be determined by all of our previous experience?  That's always where I get stuck on this issue.  Were my childhood different I would likely be a different personality now.  I really can't choose to be a totally different personality as far as I know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18935026 - 10/05/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There would still have to be that initial choice that was made without experience that all the other choices came from. So how would that first choice have been made ?

I'm not saying that everyone has free will in every circumstance, but you do get to choose what you are going to eat if you had made the choices to have a decent job that allows you to choose, or if you made poor choices your probably going to be eating within limited choices of what food stamps can buy you. But you still get a choice, and I really don't see how it could be any other way.

Or how would a vegan who was raised eating meat ever have become a vegan, or a person who was raised to be a Christian ever become an atheist?

If you choose to follow it, then you probably don't have any reason to believe there is free will, because you would just be doing as you were told all along.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935095 - 10/05/13 08:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I really don't know but I do see how small daily choices could be informed by unconscious needs ect. informed by everything that came before.  Our first act/choice might be made by our caregivers as in the beginning we don't differentiate between ourselves and our mother or so they say. That could get the ball rolling.  As I say I really don't know and I've been over this idea 100 times with no conclusion.  In the end, imo, it really doesn't make much difference as we "feel" that we have free will. 

Can you think of a way that it makes much difference ultimately if it feels like free will?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18935215 - 10/05/13 08:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935217 - 10/05/13 08:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

so give it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18935227 - 10/05/13 08:59 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, it doesn't really apply to you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935234 - 10/05/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

would it apply to anyone but you?:lol:

IMO there's no important reason to care one way or another.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935264 - 10/05/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I like the matrix quote

"all choices you have already made, now you're here to understand why you made them" :wink:

the matrix is pretty deep, I don't believe in coincidences, I believe that we were programmed from birth, and that programming is taken with us into adulthood and decides much of everything we do

(I think Jung said something about this too... where does our birth programming come from...archetypes..?, is it just our parents/environment only that is programming us?)

if you know a person when he/she is 5, you know a person when he/she is 30 it seems, at least those that I know

or maybe that is just self-suggestion?:wink: , I'd love to hear someone agree/disagree on that

do you know your old friends that you have known for 20+ years ?
or have they changed suddenly unexpectedly into something else

(drug use/stress doesn't count, it can make us not ourselves)


Edited by lessismore (10/05/13 09:28 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
    #18935278 - 10/05/13 09:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:  It seems at least a very likely possibility.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
    #18937788 - 10/05/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
I like the matrix quote

"all choices you have already made, now you're here to understand why you made them" :wink:

the matrix is pretty deep, I don't believe in coincidences, I believe that we were programmed from birth, and that programming is taken with us into adulthood and decides much of everything we do

(I think Jung said something about this too... where does our birth programming come from...archetypes..?, is it just our parents/environment only that is programming us?)

if you know a person when he/she is 5, you know a person when he/she is 30 it seems, at least those that I know

or maybe that is just self-suggestion?:wink: , I'd love to hear someone agree/disagree on that

do you know your old friends that you have known for 20+ years ?
or have they changed suddenly unexpectedly into something else

(drug use/stress doesn't count, it can make us not ourselves)




I don't see how that can be accurate, when if it were true, there would be  a pattern to be able to determine when someone is going to be a Terrorists, like all of the atrocities that took place should have been predicted.

And why do you lock someone up for just doing what they were programmed to do, I mean it wouldn't be their fault right? Why would we kill a murderer for murdering if he was simply programmed to do that?

Jung worked from problem based psychology rather than solution based. Sure if you look at the chain of even that led to your current situation in hindsight, you can blame everything on your parents, which is what you will get for 5 years and $50,000 when you consider his methodology seriously. Pointing fingers doesn't really help your future, it only allows you to dwell in the past. But if you look into the future and decide something you want to be or do, you have to choose specific goals to accomplish to get to that place that you chose.

If you consider solution based psychology you realize that it is up to you to make your future, and you focus on the bright spots and do more of it, not just do what you are programmed to do, you have to make the change or nothing is going to change. To do more of something you have to choose it, it doesn't just happen, and to me it sounds absurd.

You can blame everything on your earliest ancestors or you can take responsibility for your actions. I generally prefer the latter.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18937795 - 10/05/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you didn't choose anything ever, you would most likely die. Or how would you get a drink or something to eat?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18937802 - 10/05/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

90% of all people adopt the religion of their parents and easily believe handed-down superstitious nonsense. This makes a poor case for free will.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18937808 - 10/05/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Do bacterium exhibit free will? They must else they would all be dead, right? RIGHT?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #18939315 - 10/06/13 09:00 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

90% of all people adopt the religion of their parents and easily believe handed-down superstitious nonsense. This makes a poor case for free will.

I've always found it kinda hilarious how black people in the US who descended from former slaves almost-universally embrace the standard vanilla Christian faith, praise Jesus, go to church, and cherish the bible as if it's the only way to god and always has been for them and their ancestors.

Nevermind that their original religion was nothing to do with Jesus or sacred texts of any kind and had no priesthood. Christianity was shoved up their slave grandparents' ass when they were abducted from Africa and forced to join a new religion or get the living shit beat out of them or worse if they refused to bow down before the cross.

But check out any southern black church and you'll see them singing and swaying and holding up their hands like rabbit-ears communicating with god oblivious to the irony. How about that. PRAISE the lord! :yesnod:

This is evidence that there is free will, because the randomness allows for it.

Oh, by the way, Hameroff work on micro-tubules and protein folding, brilliant though he may be, has been discredited. And free will does not follow from randomness. Only randomness follows from randomness. All that can be derived from randomness is that the universe is not deterministic. But that's not the same thing as free will.

BTW, check out this BBC thing on interesting experiments underway to try and pinpoint where exactly in the he brain is the "you".



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18941352 - 10/06/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, predetermination abhors randomness.

With randomness there cannot be predetermination.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18941413 - 10/06/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Do bacterium exhibit free will? They must else they would all be dead, right? RIGHT?




That question carry's with it a composition fallacy, or an assumption that we are equivalent to a bacterium.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18942015 - 10/06/13 07:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, predetermination abhors randomness.

With randomness there cannot be predetermination.


Bla blah blah. I speak English. If you want a response from me, you'll have to do it in English. :sorry:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18942275 - 10/06/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Determination and randomness together explain something each alone cannot.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18942280 - 10/06/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
90% of all people adopt the religion of their parents and easily believe handed-down superstitious nonsense. This makes a poor case for free will.

I've always found it kinda hilarious how black people in the US who descended from former slaves almost-universally embrace the standard vanilla Christian faith, praise Jesus, go to church, and cherish the bible as if it's the only way to god and always has been for them and their ancestors.

Nevermind that their original religion was nothing to do with Jesus or sacred texts of any kind and had no priesthood. Christianity was shoved up their slave grandparents' ass when they were abducted from Africa and forced to join a new religion or get the living shit beat out of them or worse if they refused to bow down before the cross.

But check out any southern black church and you'll see them singing and swaying and holding up their hands like rabbit-ears communicating with god oblivious to the irony. How about that. PRAISE the lord! :yesnod:

This is evidence that there is free will, because the randomness allows for it.

Oh, by the way, Hameroff work on micro-tubules and protein folding, brilliant though he may be, has been discredited. And free will does not follow from randomness. Only randomness follows from randomness. All that can be derived from randomness is that the universe is not deterministic. But that's not the same thing as free will.

BTW, check out this BBC thing on interesting experiments underway to try and pinpoint where exactly in the he brain is the "you".






Seems fairly cunning for a slave master to turn his slaves on to Christianity if you think about it.  "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."  It encourages one not to rebel, after all they'll get their reward and the last laugh in the end.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18942807 - 10/06/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
No, predetermination abhors randomness.

With randomness there cannot be predetermination.


Bla blah blah. I speak English. If you want a response from me, you'll have to do it in English. :sorry:




Ok, I'll spoon feed it to you:

If predetermination implies predictability, and random event cannot be predicted then they are not predetermined. If there are events that aren't predetermined, and these events are a part of the universe then the universe cannot be said to be predetermined.


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