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OfflineYogi1
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Registered: 04/01/13
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18940174 - 10/06/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

the problem with discussing mysticism with non believers is how incredibly ignorant they tend to be.




Ignorant means without knowledge and yet belief without factual evidence is pure ignorance.

There is one law of gravity because facts converge. There are several hundred thousand religions or sub-flavors of religions because there is nothing to base them on; hence the wide divergence.

If you could present actual reason why an agnostic should choose your belief system over all the others then you might have a real discussion; otherwise all you have is a bold assertion that does not stand out from the other hundreds of thousands of bold assertions.




:datass:

Why the spirituality forum be all vague and agnostic?!?!?!


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Yogi1]
    #18940343 - 10/06/13 01:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yogi1 said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
if you agree that the path is within then why do you disagree with me? because i use christian terminology?

do you realize that that would be like disagreeing with someone if they state something in russian but then agreering with the very same thing stated in spanish?

when i say, happiness is in the Lord i could very well say happiness is within the Self. both statements mean the very same thing so if youre going to agree with one and not the other, youre the one who owes an explanation.




No youre saying "the only true happines is happiness in the (christian) lord." First of all that a ridiculous statement as I find happiness in a lot of other experiences, and right now youre backpedaling. Apologetics are the lowest form and least respected of fundamentalist religions.



all i am saying is this, the source of happiness, the wellspring of life, is  to be found within the human heart not in the world of sensory experience.

you can disagree with that all you want, only make sure thats what you are disagreeing with.

now traditionally, this truth, along with most other spiritual truths, have been described with christian terminology in our culture. this i find very beautiful and lovely, so i use it. I love christianity and it is my favorite way of exprressing spiritual truth.

I could say the same thing in a non christain way, since all the worlds religions teach this. so why not focus on the truth rather than how it is expressed? I told you its as if youre saying this idea is wrong because its written in russian and the russians hate homsosexuals, therefore all russian ideas are wrong. if it was written in spanish, then it would be true. thats basically what your argument has been.

Quote:

EDIT, you cant possibly believe gays will burn in some ridiculous underground sea of eternal fire for expressing love to eachother while experiencing a trip.




you cant possibly believe the fate of homosexuals has anything to do with the location of the source of happiness. why cant you make a point without bringing up homosexuals? its ridiculous.


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18940349 - 10/06/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I got happiness when I was an atheist, agnostic, hippy, and now again as an agnostic. I dont see how the christian lord has shit to do with overall happiness.

Dawkins seems to be just fine.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18941447 - 10/06/13 05:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

the problem with discussing mysticism with non believers is how incredibly ignorant they tend to be.




Ignorant means without knowledge and yet belief without factual evidence is pure ignorance.

There is one law of gravity because facts converge. There are several hundred thousand religions or sub-flavors of religions because there is nothing to base them on; hence the wide divergence.


If you could present actual reason why an agnostic should choose your belief system over all the others then you might have a real discussion; otherwise all you have is a bold assertion that does not stand out from the other hundreds of thousands of bold assertions.




I could give reasons why agnostics should choose my belief system, not proof but reasons certainly. However that is not where my interest lies. I already explained in another thread but to sum up, let's say I tried to respond to your post and debate with you. Do you think my answer, regardless of how good it was, would change your mind? I highly doubt it. Instead, you would come back with more  arguments. Then where would we be? Another theist vs atheist debate.

The reason this forum was created is because of that problem. Try to look at this from my perspective. Do you really think I want to have to defend all my spiritual beliefs, to the same tired arguments against them, every time I make a post? It's not even that i dont like debate, I do and I have debated with atheists a great deal. In fact, if you would like to debate with me, I would be happy to do it provided you agreed to be respectful. What i dont like is being expected to have to proof my beliefs on a forum specifically made for people to discuss beliefs which could not be proven easily. It would like if you went to a science forum and it had been taken over by a bunch of young earth creations who expecrted you to prove evolution over and over again every time you made a post. Dont you think you would get tired of the same thing over again and desire a forum where you could discuss your ideas with other sceintifically minded people?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Yogi1]
    #18941492 - 10/06/13 05:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Yogi1 said:
I got happiness when I was an atheist, agnostic, hippy, and now again as an agnostic. I dont see how the christian lord has shit to do with overall happiness.

Dawkins seems to be just fine.





Here we go again with "I don't see" assumption. You are assuming that because you don't see a relationship between two things, there isn't one.

It's so ridiculously simple. Christians believe that happiness comes not from our situation in life (which is what our nature tells us to believe, hence all our desires for pleasures of the flesh) but from within us, from our hearts.

Now you can agree with that, or not, I don't care. But to pretend you don't understand is just absurd. It's not complicated. We believe happpiness comes from within and thus that we should seek it there. The other major world religions teach the exact same thing. Do you know anything about Buddhism or Hinduism? Its not unique to the Christian idea of God, but obviously for Christians who believe that all good things come from the Lord, we are gonna identify that inner happiness as being from the Lord.

it's clear to me that when you say you got happiness, you are not talking about inner happiness because no one who truly understood inner happiness would make the kind of statements you make. Thats fine, if youre happy with your life in the world, more power to you. Some of us however, we miserable in the world. Luckily there is an alternative.


Edited by Deviate (10/06/13 06:00 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Icelander]
    #18942090 - 10/06/13 07:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
thats exactly the problem it seems we have a spirituality and mysticism forum where everyone besides me, markosthegnostic and a few other posters is a god damn atheist.

as timothy leary so eloquently described in his trip report for his first ever mushroom, he realized that the path of the mystic was the inner path. i am interested in in communicating with people who share that belief. all the worlds major religions are the same to me,because they all teach that in their own way.

the mystic looks within himself for love, happiness, and all spiritual treasure, whereas the ordinary man looks outside himself.

now how many people actually believe in looking within? i am curious, because it seems like every time i make a thread on a mystical or spiritual topic, the majority of responses are from skeptics and non believers.

the problem with discussing mysticism with non believers is how incredibly ignorant they tend to be. the experience is like if  you were a scientist and an atheist and you went to an evolution forum wishing to discuss evolution and you were met with nothing but a bunch of young earth creationists who do nothing but arrogantly ridicule your ideas about evolution.

can you see how that would be dissapionting?




Life is full of disappointments. 

I suggest you find yourself a great religious forum full of like minded christians to play with. There must be plenty of those out there.  This should solve your problem handily.




with a psychedelic bent though? i am interested in discussing the truth as revealed by psychedelics, because psychedelics have played a major role in my understanding the Truth.




If christians are all that great they should accept your ways of finding your truth.  I mean the lord is revealing the truth to them right? They are not relying on their own understanding right?




I never said they didn't accept it, I said that most christians forums dont have a psychedelic bent to them. Hence most of the members there are not experienced with psychedelics. Its not that I am afraid of being judged by them, its simply a matter of wanting to find like minded people. I dont have any problems with christians, i just feel like the shroomery is a rather unique place.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18942278 - 10/06/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well then quit whining about it and accept it for the unique place it is.  It's never going to be just how you want it to be. It isn't the way I would prefer it to be either.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18942485 - 10/06/13 09:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

"...a mighty hot dog is our Lord...I'm not talking about hate, no, I'm talking about ate. Dinner at eight. Let's eat!..."




--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Icelander]
    #18942496 - 10/06/13 09:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well then quit whining about it and accept it for the unique place it is.  It's never going to be just how you want it to be. It isn't the way I would prefer it to be either.





I know that, but I am going to continue pointing it out when people post things which are against the purpose of the forum. Would you tolerate it if you were an atheist and evolution researcher and people kept posting young earth creationist theories on a evolution forum?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18942532 - 10/06/13 09:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
thats exactly the problem it seems we have a spirituality and mysticism forum where everyone besides me, markosthegnostic and a few other posters is a god damn atheist.







That's a really hick thing to say :thumbdown: Spirituality has no precise definition.  For me it involves a reverence for greater states of freedom, as revealed to me through the psychedelic experience. This is a psychedelic spirituality forum, not a fundamentalist religious belief forum.  Get over yourself.

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
"...a mighty hot dog is our Lord...I'm not talking about hate, no, I'm talking about ate. Dinner at eight. Let's eat!..."







When even MtG pokes fun at your Christian thread, it's probably time to lighten up :lol:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18942585 - 10/06/13 10:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think you understand quite where I am coming from. A reverence for greater states of freedom as revealed through the psychedelic experience is exactly what I'm all about.

I feel as though the mindset on this forum is that spirituality has no precise definition and thus there are many valid ways in which one can express it. However, religion is not one of them.

Do you see the contradiction there? the people who are preaching tolerance, are very intolerant of the religious people they see as intolerant.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18942602 - 10/06/13 10:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

To elaborate, let me say this. I could probably write a post expressing the exact same idea as I expressed in this thread, only clothe the idea in hip, shroomery language and get a completely different set of responses.

If I use Christian terms on the other hand, I can predict that the response will be overwhelmingly negative.

Ideally, that shouldn't be on a forum like this. People should be able to go beyond the words themselves and evaluate ideas.

I am more than capable of expressing spiritual concepts in non christian terms. the reason I use christian terms is because christianity is one of my passions in life. I absolutely love the Bible and the whole Christian religion, even some of the wacky and very heretical sects interest me. For example, I love to study mormonism even though I dont believe it to be true.


Edited by Deviate (10/06/13 10:22 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18942640 - 10/06/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well then quit whining about it and accept it for the unique place it is.  It's never going to be just how you want it to be. It isn't the way I would prefer it to be either.





I know that, but I am going to continue pointing it out when people post things which are against the purpose of the forum. Would you tolerate it if you were an atheist and evolution researcher and people kept posting young earth creationist theories on a evolution forum?




I used to whine too about the true believers who come into my main forum and won't play by the rules there but I got over it.  Now I just come over here to play and even shit out. :evil:  I'd have never come over here if it weren't for them.  True story.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18942652 - 10/06/13 10:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, let's take a closer look at your idea without dressing it up in Christian terminology.  You argue that nobody would hesitate putting all their effort into a large financial payout, but would be reluctant to do the work that needs to be done for personal growth for its own sake.  Well, maybe I agree, but if that's the case I'd suggest you turn off browsing the internet and the Shroomery and do exactly what it is that you need to realize your greatest aspirations.  I'll believe it when I see it.  Lead by example, not by a sermon.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18942669 - 10/06/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Well, let's take a closer look at your idea without dressing it up in Christian terminology.  You argue that nobody would hesitate putting all their effort into a large financial payout, but would be reluctant to do the work that needs to be done for personal growth for its own sake.  Well, maybe I agree, but if that's the case I'd suggest you turn off browsing the internet and the Shroomery and do exactly what it is that you need to realize your greatest aspirations.  I'll believe it when I see it.  Lead by example, not by a sermon.




What makes you think that posting on the shroomery is incompatible with my greatest aspirations?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18942670 - 10/06/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18942858 - 10/06/13 11:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

When even MtG pokes fun at your Christian thread, it's probably time to lighten up

Exactly. :awesomenod:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18942895 - 10/06/13 11:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I have 5 of their LPs now.  I wish I had em all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblecez
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18942946 - 10/06/13 11:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Deviate I used to vibe with alot of your posts.
You've lost me as of late :sad:

I don't dismiss the Christian ideology, but I dismiss it as the only source of liberation..If there is such a thing.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The only true happiness, is happiness in the Lord [Re: Deviate]
    #18942988 - 10/07/13 12:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So my brothers and sisters in the Lord, if we are willing to put forth that much effort in the pursuit of temporary, imperfect happiness why do we hesitate before putting forth the same or greater effort in the pursuit of eternal perfect happiness?

Who is assuming that people are NOT doing this? You are. That's presumptuous of you. Who evaluate's how much effort you are making, and if it's what Buddhists call "Right Effort" ?

God is so gracious and merciful that he cannot help but take notice whenever we sincerely attempt to please Him. Hence he is prepared to grant us most undeserving and unworthy sinners, so much grace and divine assistance that provided our intent is pure, we can scarcely fail our mission. But such is the Lord our God, so loving and kind and compassionate.

The masculine pronoun for God is offensive to many people and for different reasons. The Aramaic Name was Abwoon, 'Cosmic Mother-Father' or 'Cosmic Birther.' Do you think the patriarchal Greek authors of the gospels were going to reveal a feminine deity or feminine-masculine deity even if a mystic Iesous used it? No. If you want to buy into Augustine's Original Sin doctrine, and go about flagellating yourself for your unworthiness to live, go ahead and enjoy your masochism. Iesous himself never even heard of the Original Sin doctrine. He was Jewish, and held that humans have a good and an evil inclination, the Yetzer Tov and the Yetzer Hara, respectively. BTW, Christianity from its beginning was a religion of celebration, not asceticism. That was John the Baptist's trip which was surpassed by a new teaching. Christianity like most every other religion had its share of masochists. I used to suffer from that disorder, but fortunately, it's been in remission now for decades. My sex life is well integrated and it is no longer an alien force trying to seduce me by "the glamour of Satan" and whatever. The "Abba" of the NT is another conception of God - certainly not the concept of YHWH who is a genocidal tyrant of cosmic proportion. Don't get too attached to the concepts of God, they are just ideas, not God. There is nothing biblical to illustrate one-sided kindness and compassion of God. As Isaiah 45:7 points out  "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Have you ever read the Tenach? Can't be the same God-IDEA.

Let us pray: May almighty God have mercy on us poor sinners and help us to resist the temptations of the flesh, in order that we may become holy servants of the Most High. We ask this through Christ, our Lord. Amen.

Well, I for one am not a "whore-monger," or a "glutton," but it's difficult to say what a "wine bibber" is, unless it means a drunk, which I am not either, even though I drink wine nightly. Hmm, I hope it occurs to you that Paul was WRONG about the imminent end of time, and the return of Christ. Advising people not to marry because the end was near was bum advice. So was becoming a martyr IMO and allowing children to be eaten alive by big cats, or covered with pitch and burned alive as torches for night spectacles in the coliseum. The modern expression 'child abuse' doesn't even come close to mass delusions of smiling Christians, singing hymns as they entered the coliseum. These are the things that stand out to people opposed to religion in general but Christianity in particular. Keeping one's mind on mythically described 'heaven' or 'paradise' does not negate the historicity of atrocities because Christians wouldn't make offerings to local deities, thereby sparing their lives. This was all ego, it was not going to offend Ultimate Reality to put some food down in front of a stone carving.

What part of these egotistical behaviors that pass for holiness do you not get. The Gnostics got it and continued to live, because their religion was truly inward, as you claim to be all about. Most people here obviously do not find your language, modeled on biblical writ, to be romantic, or uplifting. Serving has lost its meaning in the 21st century, and being "a slave for Christ" is archaic and uninviting. Fortunately, for those who intuit that there is Truth to be mined somewhere in Christianity, the Good LORD led two moronic Muslim manure miners to the Nag Hammadi library, wherein we can find teachings from other than the misogynistic, sexually hung-up, Saul called Paul of Tarsus. Half of the Pauline writings are forgeries, and even the authentic Paul was just plain wrong about so much, like the 'end times,' that he projected this into a mythic future instead of understanding it as an eschatological Present (like the modern mystic Eckhart Tolle describes). Maybe you need to watch Monty Python's The Life of Brian. The wrong messiah drops a sandal and the multitudes adopt it as a religious symbol. Paul writes some [genuine] letters, and they are turned into holy scriptures.  :egyptian: Awaken from your assumptions! :egyptian:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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