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mushK47
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Registered: 10/05/13
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Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) 1
#18936964 - 10/05/13 05:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hello everyone, I'm hoping someone can help me with this contamination problem im having. To give you an idea of my procedure-
I start with grain jars, inoculate with myc from agar (isolated strains, very even and circular, np there), then g2g to bags (with the super small pore size filter patch), which never show any signs or smells of contams. Then I spawn to coir(ecoearth)/verm/gypsum mix (same procedure as Damoin5050's tek, except it is not done with boiling water) then I load into pillowcases and pasteurize around 150 for an hour in pots on the stove (stirring frequently to make sure heat is evenly distributed). Once those are done I let them drain and squeeze out the rest of the water and when they are cool I throw the sub into a garbage bag with the grain spawn, twist tie the bag and mix well, then open the bag and put the whole bag into the tub as if the tub were a trash can and throw the lid on and let them sit in a room with a hepa filter.
They look fine at first (hardly ever contam within a few days) and smell fine, but then at some point before they are 100% colonized they develop sweet/minty smells and white fuzzy mold.
I didn't used to have these problems with contams, but lately I have been losing more than half of my tubs.
I have read statements from TCs that say that if you pasteurize properly you should be able to spawn in a less than sterile area and have no contams before the first flush. This is not looking to be true. I have read things that say if your coir contams on you it is probably bad spawn, but when I break up the grains before mixing they never smell like anything other than pure mushroomy like they should. By keeping the pasteurization bath stirred well I am making sure there are no hot zones in the water that might accidentally kill the good bacteria, I was very careful to keep one batch at as close to 150 as possible but it still contam'd. I have tried the standard bucket tek as well but with the same results. The substrate seems close to field capacity from the squeeze test and there is sure plenty of moisture to cling to the lid of the tub. I have no idea what is going wrong as the latest myc wedges I used were just recently grown from spores and looked very strong.
The only thing that I might be more careful about is not letting the bags sit so long before spawning to bulk. Sometimes they start to fruit in the bags if I am out of town for work, but I don't see why this alone would allow an otherwise properly pasteurized substrate to go bad like this. Also the growing area could be a little cleaner (it is in an attic of a civil war era house) but there are air filters runing and plastic sheets surround the area somewhat like a dexter kill room. The room where all the sterile work is done is ousted vigorously and all sterile work is done in from of a flow hood (of course thats probably why the grain doesn't contam).
I really have no idea WTF is going on here... Any help from experienced growers who have resolved issues like this would be highly appreciated.
Thank you very much!

The last two may be hard to see the contams but they are there. Second to last is a very faint greyish mold on the uncolonized part of the coir, the last one is some yellow stuff.
Edited by mushK47 (10/05/13 05:16 PM)
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maddchef
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: mushK47]
#18937054 - 10/05/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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How much grain are you sterilizing in your bags at a time? I've found when approaching 4-5 quarts, shit takes forever to sterilized, especially if you're doing several bags at once and they're a bit crowded.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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Gretchenmeister
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: maddchef]
#18937107 - 10/05/13 05:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you gonna pastuerize for cube species, I suggest aiming for 170F for at least one hour.
Curious if you are allowing for an endospore hatch with your grain preparation? Full 24 hr soak?
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mushK47
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: maddchef]
#18937217 - 10/05/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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mad:
Its a large gusseted bag, I put right around 2.8 to 3 lb per bag... When they are full they will fit 4x into a 15qt PC with a little space to spare on top. I weigh them but I don't usually keep track of how many quarts I put in each bag. I guess I should do that... I use a 4.5 cup measureing cup to fill them, each bag takes a little more than 2 full scoops. I PC at 15psi (or higher) for 1:45
Are you implying that maybe the center of the bag may not be sterilized? I'm open to that possibility but I would point out that even after the first mixing of the colonized grains when the myc re-solidifies its hold on the grains there is no visible contams and no contam smell during the final mixing when spawning to bulk.
I have read posts about "dormant contams" in otherwise normal looking spawn, that lays dormant until you spawn to bulk then they wake up and wreck shit... But honestly I haven't found anything credible on that and it kinda sounds like a myth.
gretchen:
I have seen posts such as this (RR) that state that even lower temps (140) are better because they kill the bad stuff while allowing the good bacteria to survive. I have also read that allowing the temp to reach too high for more than a few minutes will kill some of the good bacteria and leave that part of the sub vulnerable.
I have done grows in the past with much higher temps and not got contams, but I have also done with higher temps recently and still had the same problem. I am trying to narrow down my technique and I was going off what RR said since he seems to know what hes doing, as well as this thread which states "If the temp goes over 165-170 for more than a few minutes, you will sterilize part of the substrate. It'd be best to toss it and try again. Since we spawn to bulk in open air, a partially sterilized substrate is often as shitty as an unpasteurized substrate."
When you do 170 how long do you cook for and what is your contam rate?
Also the soak is between 12-24 hours, done with hot water. Then I rinse with cold until the water runs clear, then again with hot, then boil, then drain and let air dry while the steam evaporates.
If I may ask, why is 170 preferable for cubes over other species and what is the significance of the endospore hatch in relation to my process?
Thank you both for your replies 
Edited by mushK47 (10/09/13 09:57 AM)
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maddchef
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: mushK47]
#18937367 - 10/05/13 06:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushK47 said: mad:
I have read posts about "dormant contams" in otherwise normal looking spawn, that lays dormant until you spawn to bulk then they wake up and wreck shit... But honestly I haven't found anything credible on that and it kinda sounds like a myth.
I can personally say this is true. Also if you're loading roughly 12lbs of grain in a 15qt pc and only cooking for 1:45, I can almost guarantee this is where your problem lies.
How long ago did you start using bags?
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: mushK47]
#18937776 - 10/05/13 08:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think you have more than one problem in your technique.
Problem 1) Your grain:
You can have a hidden contam, I call them "ninjas". The possibility is high because you are not PCing your grains long enough. That's a lot of grain and the center is not likely getting up to temperature long enough.
Possible resolution
a) find out how long you should be PCing that much grain. I don't know how long it should be, but I guarantee it's longer than 1:45. That's how long I do 7 quart jars that are 3/4 full.
b) My suggestion, stick with jars. I used to try bags and was very hit or miss. Yes, you can do more at once with bags, but jars are more simple to me. Here's how I do grains
The outside of bags and jars are not sterile and I find bags to be cumbersome. I have left sterilized bags sitting and not contam. I think I was contaminating them trying to dump grains in.
The soak allows endospores to become hydrated so they are easier to kill when PCing.
After the soak, there is no need to rinse again. Just put the pot on the stove and boil. The only rinse you need is when preparing for the soak.
Problem 2) The substrate
It sounds like the only similarity you have with Damian5050's is the fact that you mix in a bucket and use the same ingredients.
Correct pasteurization for mushroom substrate is 140F - 170F for 60 mins. If anyone says anything different, make sure they have the "Trusted Cultivator" tag. Otherwise, don't listen to anybody else about it.
That is what the core temperature should be, not just the water. The water can be hotter and so can the edges of the substrate.
Your substrate is likely too wet. For best results, get your substrate to field capacity and then divide in to smaller containers like quart jars. This allows for even temperature control and control of moisture. Here's a good tek
Putting it all in a pillow case may be keeping the core from getting up to temperature for the right time and then you have to drain and squeeze it and all that.
The average ~650g brick of coir holds 4 qts water. 1 qt vermiculite holds ~1/4 - 1/2 qts water, depending on how dry or wet you want it.
Taking your new prepped substrate and sticking it in a bag to sit is a bad idea. I would not let it sit for more than a day myself.
Problem 3) Your tub
Your liner should be trimmed down to substrate level before you put the lid on to colonize. Especially if your sub is too wet, the condensation just keeps rolling back down the side of your sub keeping it saturated.
Being as you liner goes all the way up, I assume it laps over the top and forms a gasket when you put your lid on. If this is true, then you are preventing GE.
I don't think your tub is the main problem, but it needs to be examined.
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Edited by SpitballJedi (10/05/13 08:30 PM)
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Gretchenmeister
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18941531 - 10/06/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Regarding hidden contams in grains:
This shouldn't be a mystery for those who's mycology studies included TMC. I realize some info has been updated over the years throughout our own personal practices, but the basics and essential parameters found within TMC still apply.
The "hidden contams" in grains are called endospores. An endospore is a dormant, tough, and non-reproductive structure produced by certain bacteria from the Firmicute phylum. The name "endospore" is suggestive of a spore or seed-like form (endo means within), but it is not a true spore (i.e. not an offspring). It is a stripped-down, dormant form to which the bacterium can reduce itself. In endospore formation, the bacterium divides within its cell wall. One side then engulfs the other. Endospores enable bacteria to lie dormant for extended periods, even centuries. Revival of spores millions of years old has been claimed. When the environment becomes more favorable, the endospore can reactivate itself to the vegetative state. Most types of bacteria cannot change to the endospore form. Examples of bacteria that can form endospores include Bacillus and Clostridium.
The endospore consists of the bacterium's DNA and part of its cytoplasm, surrounded by a very tough outer coating.
Endospores can survive without nutrients. They are resistant to ultraviolet radiation, desiccation, high temperature, extreme freezing and chemical disinfectants. According to scientist Dr. Steinn Sigurdsson, "There are viable bacterial spores that have been found that are 40 million years old on Earth - and we know they're very hardened to radiation." Common anti-bacterial agents that work by destroying vegetative cell walls do not affect endospores. Endospores are commonly found in soil and water, where they may survive for long periods of time.
Some classes of bacteria can turn into exospores, also known as microbial cysts, instead of endospores. Exospores and endospores are two kinds of "hibernating" or dormant stages seen in some classes of microorganisms.
This is why grains are soaked 24 hours, otherwise we could just simmer to capacity without worrying about a soak. Grain quality will vary from bag to bag, and endospore content will depend on how old and how long the grain has been stored. -------------------------------------------------------
Pasteurization uses heat at a specified temperature to kill off “bad” micro life, and allow “good” or beneficial micro life to survive.
For cubensis species the specified pasteurization temperature is 170 F for at least one hour. (1-3 hours is preferred, temps above 180F for too long will cause partial sterilization.)
Cube substrate can be STEAM pasteurized at 150F for 2-3 hours. Obtaining uniform steaming on top of a heat source is tricky. If you are doing pasteurization in bags on the stove you are likely getting partial sterilization on the bottoms of the bags, and incomplete pasteurization in the center of your bag.
For Agaricus and other edible species the specified pasteurization temperature varies. Agaricus for instance, require more microlife in general to fruit, therefore bulk substrates and casings for this species are typically pasteurized at 150F for one hour. Utilizing lower temps allows more microlife to survive, however, about 170F is the temperature in which largest number of nastier or non beneficial bacteria and molds are killed, and the beneficial microlife is still able to survive. __________________________
I only have experience with growing cubes from grain in bulk substrate for about 10 years. I am only telling you what works for me 100% every time. Some may consider it overkill to soak your grains 24 hours, or to wet pasteurize your substrate. I don't mind because it ensures success every time.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: Gretchenmeister]
#18941614 - 10/06/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sometimes contams in grains are hidden in plain sight because they are misidentified as healthy cubensis mycelium and are not always from endospores.
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LaMedicina
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: SpitballJedi]
#26065163 - 06/21/19 07:22 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I really hope I'm not "breaking the law" by posting to this old thread but one of the pics in the start of the topic look very much like my monotub and I'm really curious to know what it is. I searched for a while and couldn't figure out how else to get my question answered.
The monotub has a very strong, sweet smell and this white circular stuff has populated the surface of the tub. It's been incubating 14 days at roughly 80deg but isn't anywhere near fully colonized and the surface has this white circular "foamy" stuff.
The tub contains 6 quarts of colonized wheat berries and the sub is 650g coir, 1 quart verm, 1 quart coffee grounds and some gypsum. I did not pasteurize the sub as I used the bucket method with 4.5 quarts of boiling water and the info I read suggested pasteurization wasn't necessary. I also did squeeze out excess water, bringing it to what I could tell as a good field capacity.
Anyway, can anyone tell me what this is and whether the tub is able to be used? Or is it toast?
Thanks so much!
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Professor X
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: LaMedicina]
#26065360 - 06/21/19 09:25 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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You should have sterilized because you used coffee. That's trichoderma and it's going to turn green. Get it outside now.
Holy shit, you used a quart coffee grounds? That's waaay too much. One cup is plenty for a brick of coir, I don't even use vermiculite any more.
Edited by Professor X (06/21/19 09:27 AM)
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TedsDead



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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: Professor X]
#26065395 - 06/21/19 09:50 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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soo, my first thought is that some bacteria is sneaking in with your spawn either via agar or surviving the PC cycle. but then you say your bags are old... like how old? lots of metbolite build-up? (which could point to bacteria as well) I've notived an increase in trich when spawning older bags with lots of yellow. I always thought it was that the trich favored the acidity of the myc piss but generally healthy bags look fine so bacteria my be the underlying cause. I would up your PC times/psi and see if that helps. I do 2 hrs @ 20psi @ sealevel for all grains
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bw86
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Re: Coir Bulk Tub Grow Contamination Problems (Pics) [Re: TedsDead]
#26065448 - 06/21/19 10:19 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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if you are using anything other than pure coir just pasteurize properly.
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