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krypto2000
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Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on.
#18931367 - 10/04/13 02:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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There seems to be a lot of information on the forums saying one thing or the other. If you have a quart of spawn, assuming all quarts of spawn being equal for the sake of discussion, and assuming optimal fruiting conditions in both cases, would you pull the same amount of fruit by weight from fruiting a jar in vitro as you would by casing the same jar into a larger fruiting chamber which has more surface area? Keep in mind this is under optimal conditions in all cases just for the sake of discussion/furthering understanding, in practice I'm sure a proper fruiting chamber would yield more because it's easier to attain optimal conditions, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm assuming it would based on what I've read and that the jar would either produce a lot more flushes, larger fruits, or otherwise make up the difference, it does have the same amount of total energy as a spawned and cased jar would, that seems the logical answer to me, but I can't find anything definitive to support it one way or the other.
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Sagescruffy
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: krypto2000]
#18931380 - 10/04/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're asking if in perfect conditions with two quart jars which are equal, if one quart jar left to fruit inside the jar and the other broken up and spread out onto a pan and cased, if in both instances they would produce the same yield?
So basically all variables are the same for both jars, except one jar has the colonized grains within it spread out onto a tray and cased while the other is left alone to fruit inside the jar.
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Edited by Sagescruffy (10/04/13 02:11 PM)
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rumfor69
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: krypto2000]
#18931384 - 10/04/13 02:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I used to wonder this myself and IMO they fruit better in a pan. Casing
layer is not necessary for cubes but you can. But better than using just
spawn and a casing. Pasteurize some coco coir and mix the spawn 50/50
with it you will get even better results.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: krypto2000]
#18931404 - 10/04/13 02:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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In vitro will not produce as much because the fruiting conditions suck. There's plenty of this out there you just need a search engine TEK... How do you assume optimal conditions in an in-vitro jar it's not optimal by default. If you assume optimal conditions it's not an in-vitro jar any more now is it? This question is so besides the point. Go grow some shit instead of asking stupid questions and getting your threads locked.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18930177
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krypto2000
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Sagescruffy]
#18931474 - 10/04/13 02:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sagescruffy said: You're asking if in perfect conditions with two quart jars which are equal, if one quart jar left to fruit inside the jar and the other broken up and spread out onto a pan and cased, if in both instances they would produce the same yield?
So basically all variables are the same for both jars, except one jar has the colonized grains within it spread out onto a tray and cased while the other is left alone to fruit inside the jar.
That's exactly what I'm asking, the other two responders seemed to have ignored the question. I do grow, I do bulk, I've done the pf cakes, horse manure, coir, etc. It's a theoretical question for learning purposes. As I've said I already am well aware... as was very clearly stated in the question, that spawning to a fruiting chamber yields more in practice because, again, as I clearly said, its easier to create optimal conditions. I'm not asking what to do in practice, I already know that, I'm trying to understand the nature of mushroom growing better and thus the answer to this question will help in that understanding.
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Dreaming Nomad
Psyborg



Registered: 01/15/13
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: bodhisatta]
#18931508 - 10/04/13 02:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: In vitro will not produce as much because the fruiting conditions suck. There's plenty of this out there you just need a search engine TEK... How do you assume optimal conditions in an in-vitro jar it's not optimal by default. If you assume optimal conditions it's not an in-vitro jar any more now is it? This question is so besides the point. Go grow some shit instead of asking stupid questions and getting your threads locked.]
It's ironic how your username refers to a buddhist of great compassion who strives to transcend ignorance and suffering, yet you yell at this guy for trying to understand and learn something. Take a chill pill man, lol. There is more to learning than simply following instructions (TEKs)... If you can comprehend how a process works, you won't need to follow instructions in order to accomplish something. OP is simply trying to learn how this organism works and to better himself and I see nothing wrong with that. Can't we all just hit a bong? /rant
Now for the OP....... Fruiting invitro will yield a lot less than cased grains or spawning to a substrate for several reasons. For one, there is a lot less surface area for the shrooms to grow from. Also, grains don't hold moisture very well, so the whole thing would probably dry out pretty quickly. Not to mention gas exchange and CO2 buildup.
To put it simply, the environment would suck. Cubensis, like any other life form, prefers a certain environment. Sure, you could live at high altitude or in the desert, but would you thrive there?
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They say curiosity killed the cat... Fortunately, I am not a cat.
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krypto2000
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Dreaming Nomad]
#18931560 - 10/04/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well by optimal conditions I meant that the environment could be maintained optimally, so FAE, moisture content, etc, are simply assumed to be optimal. So based on what you said though this leads to the question of why does surface area matter? View it like a pot of boiling water, from my perspective it would be like saying a wider pot will create more bubbles because there is more surface area. To me however this just doesn't seem true, the water may boil out faster, but if you apply the same amount of heat the water at a constant and steady rate it would stand to reason that in both cases all of the water would boil out of the pot and create the same amount of bubbles. I've read in another thread today that when cutting a mushroom at the base on a bulk substrate that the mycilium will grow around the base of the mushroom but no new mushrooms will grow from that spot. So that *implies* why surface area is important, but it still does not explain why, explain the mechanism behind it. Why will a mushroom not grow from the same place? To use the boiling water analogy again it's like saying a bubble will not form in the same place a previous bubble has, that may be true, it may not, I'm not sure if anyone has ever actually tested it, but logically it doesn't seem like it would make a difference. To use something more related it's like saying you cannot grow a cabbage in the same hole that you grew a cabbage in last year.
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hidyn
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Dreaming Nomad]
#18931613 - 10/04/13 02:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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There's also the physical constraints of a glass jar. I've never grown in vitro before, But I imagine that if, theoretically, gas exchange and moisture were ideal, growth would literally hit a wall when confined by the jar.
Keeping multiple flushes in mind, and assuming no contamination, ideal moisture and gas exchange, and the ability to harvest from the in vitro jar then re-fruit, until both nutrient sources are exhausted, you would probably get equal results.
The problem is that in the jar, the FAE and moisture won't be there, not to mention the pain of trying to harvest. Throw in the contamination timeline and you're looking at a losing battle.
All things being equal, the results would be equal. The only difference in your scenario is surface area, which would largely translate to time.
In the real world, however, your scenario consists almost entirely of assuming the negation of negative variables upon the jar.
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hidyn
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: krypto2000]
#18931625 - 10/04/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: Well by optimal conditions I meant that the environment could be maintained optimally, so FAE, moisture content, etc, are simply assumed to be optimal. So based on what you said though this leads to the question of why does surface area matter? View it like a pot of boiling water, from my perspective it would be like saying a wider pot will create more bubbles because there is more surface area. To me however this just doesn't seem true, the water may boil out faster, but if you apply the same amount of heat the water at a constant and steady rate it would stand to reason that in both cases all of the water would boil out of the pot and create the same amount of bubbles. I've read in another thread today that when cutting a mushroom at the base on a bulk substrate that the mycilium will grow around the base of the mushroom but no new mushrooms will grow from that spot. So that *implies* why surface area is important, but it still does not explain why, explain the mechanism behind it. Why will a mushroom not grow from the same place? To use the boiling water analogy again it's like saying a bubble will not form in the same place a previous bubble has, that may be true, it may not, I'm not sure if anyone has ever actually tested it, but logically it doesn't seem like it would make a difference. To use something more related it's like saying you cannot grow a cabbage in the same hole that you grew a cabbage in last year.
Your analogies here are flawed, as you're forgetting that there is still, in fact, part of a mushroom in place, where as in the bubbles and the cabbage scenario, the area has become empty, and free for reproduction.
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Mushouse
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: krypto2000]
#18931630 - 10/04/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Assuming optimum environmental conditions, the cased spawn would produce less because of the energy it must expend to recover from being transferred to the pan and to colonize the casing layer.
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krypto2000
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: hidyn]
#18931634 - 10/04/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Cool, that makes sense then. It's not too related to my original question, but do you happen to know about that last question I asked in regards to pinning from the same spot? Frank said he's never seen it happen, but I don't see any reason it couldn't. If you can grow out a whole monotub by simply cutting off a piece of the mushroom (and unless I'm wrong mycilium will literally grow out of *any* part of a mushroom) then it would only seem logical that there is nothing preventing it from pinning in that same spot again.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Mushouse]
#18931647 - 10/04/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushouse said: Assuming optimum environmental conditions, the cased spawn would produce less because of the energy it must expend to recover from being transferred to the pan and to colonize the casing layer.
That is absolutely false. A cased tray of grains will vastly outperform that same amount of grains fruited invitro in the jars. That was the question. Invitro is easy, but doesn't yield even a fraction as much product. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Stromrider
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: hidyn]
#18931651 - 10/04/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Even if you could maintain optimal conditions in the jar the cased grains would still perform better because they have a larger water reservoir because of the casing. Grains don't really hold enough water for fruiting to be very efficient without a casing
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Stromrider
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Mushouse]
#18931654 - 10/04/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushouse said: Assuming optimum environmental conditions, the cased spawn would produce less because of the energy it must expend to recover from being transferred to the pan and to colonize the casing layer.
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Dreaming Nomad
Psyborg



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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: krypto2000]
#18931662 - 10/04/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hmm, well, if you have the right conditions yeah you can definitely grow mushrooms invitro. There are even TEKs out there that show you how to do it. I recently grew invitro purely by accident/laziness by leaving some colonized jars in my aquarium for weeks after colonization (Hippie's Neglect TEK, I found out it's called). But since I load my spawn jars nearly all the way full, each jar only grew 3-4 fat and stumpy pins mashed up against the lid. But anyways.
The way I see it is, if you fruit out of jar you can get maybe.. half a dozen or so decent size shrooms growing out of the top? I guess theoretically you could harvest the same amount over time as an equal tray of cased grains because they contain the same amount of nutrients like you said. But since the tray of cased grains has more surface area, it can produce more fruits at one time while the jar would have to flush way more times to exhaust the same amount of substrate. It would probably contaminate well before then... From what I understand, fruiting invitro always yields a lot less than any other spawning method. I guess it's easier though. Hell, I did it by accident.
Take my words with a grain of salt though, I'm still learning too heh heh heh. This is just how I picture it going on in my head.
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Mushouse
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18931796 - 10/04/13 03:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Mushouse said: Assuming optimum environmental conditions, the cased spawn would produce less because of the energy it must expend to recover from being transferred to the pan and to colonize the casing layer.
That is absolutely false. A cased tray of grains will vastly outperform that same amount of grains fruited invitro in the jars. That was the question. Invitro is easy, but doesn't yield even a fraction as much product. RR
If I'm reading the OP correctly, then this is a theoretical question regarding total energy. Being that a 'casing layer' (a non-nutritive, protective, moisture-providing top layer for substrates) provides no nutrients by definition, then energy is only lost by colonizing it.
I feel like the question, according to the original post, is assuming unreal circumstances to begin with.
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Stromrider
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Mushouse]
#18931804 - 10/04/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The casing layer doesn't really colonize like the substrate and your thinking is wrong anyway. Myclelium doesn't "waste" energy when colonizing
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Stromrider
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Stromrider]
#18931819 - 10/04/13 03:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Also casing layers are not non nutritious they are semi nutritious
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krypto2000
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Stromrider]
#18931868 - 10/04/13 03:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, I think the question may not actually make sense in retrospect, it's like asking what 5 divided by 0 is. You just cant do it. I do feel that potentially they would yield the exact same however since we cannot create a closed system it's impossible to test in practice. When spawning mushrooms they are given fresh air, more water, etc, and we do know they can at least utilize the extra water, they can utilize oxygen from the air, and for all we know (I don't know anyway) they can fixate nitrogen and other trace gases from the air so the question can't even be answer as you can't spawn something to a fruiting chamber without adding outside resources to it.
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Dreaming Nomad
Psyborg



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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Mushouse]
#18931889 - 10/04/13 04:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mushouse said: If I'm reading the OP correctly, then this is a theoretical question regarding total energy. Being that a 'casing layer' (a non-nutritive, protective, moisture-providing top layer for substrates) provides no nutrients by definition, then energy is only lost by colonizing it.
I feel like the question, according to the original post, is assuming unreal circumstances to begin with.
Agreed. I took this as a hypothetical situation more than anything.
In a perfect world, it seems like the invitro jar and the cased tray would produce equal yields from equal nutrients, but the tray would accomplish the task much faster. It's a matter of efficiency.
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They say curiosity killed the cat... Fortunately, I am not a cat.
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SupaThaRipper
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: Dreaming Nomad]
#18931928 - 10/04/13 04:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You ask the weirdest shit lmao. Im sure spawning to tray out perform the hellout of a jar
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Stromrider
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Re: Rather basic question on fruiting spawn which I cannot get a clear answer on. [Re: SupaThaRipper]
#18932539 - 10/04/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SupaThaRipper said: You ask the weirdest shit lmao. Im sure spawning to tray out perform the hellout of a jar
Qft
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