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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars?
#18931010 - 10/04/13 12:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I tried searching for this answer and I only found results about reusing wet vermiculite from the rain so I thought I'd start my own thread.
I know a lot of people will just tell me to use new vermiculite since it's so inexpensive. For me, price isn't the issue. The reason why I'd like to efficiently use my current vermiculite is because I don't have a car and it takes me close to an hour and a half to go to the store that sells it.
If there are no visible contaminates on the dry vermiculite acting as a filter on top of the pf tek cakes can I reuse them as substrate by rinsing them with water and stick it in the oven to sterilize and dry? I'm thinking the pressure cooker should kill off any contaminates from the old vermiculite but I thought it would be a good precaution to bake it in the oven as well as to quickly dry them out.
Thank you for reading and taking the time to help
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krypto2000
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: nrgfx]
#18931040 - 10/04/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Most people are going to tell you to throw it, as you already seem to know. Personally I don't see why it would not work, the trace amount of mycilium present in the vermiculite might even help out future grows, that is currently a theory that I have which I'm trying to find out through testing. However for now I think the most honest answer you can get is that no one truly knows one way or the other, afaik it's simply untested, so while it might be fine, it might even help, it might also be harmful. So in the end, at least unless someone with this particular experience chimes in, it's simply up to you. What do you think will happen?
Edited by krypto2000 (10/04/13 12:35 PM)
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Rauhfasertapete
The Final Cauliflower of Doom!



Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 214
Loc: Upper Franconia
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: nrgfx]
#18931055 - 10/04/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I disagree with krypto. The verm from the top layer can contain traces of organic material, for examphle mycelium that had tried to reach for the air. you don´t want that in the verm layer, it should be absolutely nutrient-free in order to make it hard for contaminants to multiply there. Use only fresh verm for the top layer, but you can reuse the used verm for the substrate together with ground rice, or for the bottom of your glasses to avoid wet feet. Or think about some other air filtering method that works without verm. I tried it with a coir layer recently, that also worked out.
-------------------- Ich will Eins werden mit dem Gewürm auf dem Felde! if mutual gift exchange is desired, follow this link
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SupaThaRipper
Genetics Hoarder



Registered: 09/02/13
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Loc: USA
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: krypto2000]
#18931061 - 10/04/13 12:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why would you even want to do that. I mean vermiculite is the most dirt cheap item in this hobby... yet, ALL THE TIME, people ask if they can reuse it... why? Just why?
Edited by SupaThaRipper (10/04/13 12:39 PM)
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,326
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: krypto2000]
#18931064 - 10/04/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think it is a grow is a lot of time and effort to risk something like reusing vermiculite
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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Re: Can I sterilize and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: krypto2000]
#18931075 - 10/04/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: So in the end it's simply up to you, do you think it will work?
Thank you for your open minded and honest answer. I'm really not sure either. I'm new to this but I'm thinking logically it may since sterilizing will destroy both contaminates and mycelium without altering the vermiculite's composition. I would think that the trace amounts of mycelium on the top layer of vermiculite will be inert. If vermiculite is used only for maintaining moisture and the brown rice flour is food for the mycelium, I conclude that it would theoretically work. But I'd love to get other people's opinion of my theory and challenge it since I'm very new to cultivation.
I might try it out in a few jars and see if the growth is affected differently compared to the fresh unused vermiculite for my next batch. I'm more interested in the journey rather than the destination of growing mushrooms so I'm up for experimenting
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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
#18931083 - 10/04/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rauhfasertapete said: Use only fresh verm for the top layer, but you can reuse the used verm for the substrate together with ground rice.
That's exactly my intention I'm thinking about reusing the top layer of verm for substrate, not reusing it as a filter. Since the filter is very important, I plan to use new verm for it each time.
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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: SupaThaRipper]
#18931088 - 10/04/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SupaThaRipper said: Why would you even want to do that. I mean vermiculite is the most dirt cheap item in this hobby... yet, ALL THE TIME, people ask if they can reuse it... why? Just why?
Because it takes me over an hour to get it, the store is out in the middle of nowhere, very out of the way. I guess I could buy it online but that also takes over a week to arrive. Next time I go buy some, I'll make sure to buy several bags and stock up.
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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
#18931095 - 10/04/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rauhfasertapete said: I disagree with krypto. The verm from the top layer can contain traces of organic material, for examphle mycelium that had tried to reach for the air. you don´t want that in the verm layer, it should be absolutely nutrient-free in order to make it hard for contaminants to multiply there. Use only fresh verm for the top layer, but you can reuse the used verm for the substrate together with ground rice, or for the bottom of your glasses to avoid wet feet. Or think about some other air filtering method that works without verm. I tried it with a coir layer recently, that also worked out.
There might be some pathways available which promotes contamination around or in the mycilia in the verm, but simple nutrition is not enough or we wouldn't use vermiculite at all, it's full of nutrition. RR has said so himself numerous times, and I've said it again and again as well. There is not a casing layer that I can think of that does not contain nutrients, there are simply those which are more or less contaminant resistant and thus hard to consume. Coir and vermiculite are more difficult to consume than say brf, but they can be consumed. Mushrooms can eat pure rocks, which are simply minerals after all, likewise vermiculite is just flakes from a silica based rock/mineral. A 'non nutritious casing layer' is truly an oxymoron as such a thing does not exist in nature. There are even plastic eating bacteria present in the open air it's simply how long it takes them to consume a material. Leave wet plastic sitting around long enough and it will eventually be broken down.
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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: krypto2000]
#18931110 - 10/04/13 12:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said:
Quote:
Rauhfasertapete said: I disagree with krypto. The verm from the top layer can contain traces of organic material, for examphle mycelium that had tried to reach for the air. you don´t want that in the verm layer, it should be absolutely nutrient-free in order to make it hard for contaminants to multiply there. Use only fresh verm for the top layer, but you can reuse the used verm for the substrate together with ground rice, or for the bottom of your glasses to avoid wet feet. Or think about some other air filtering method that works without verm. I tried it with a coir layer recently, that also worked out.
There might be some pathways available which promotes contamination around or in the mycilia in the verm, but simple nutrition is not enough or we wouldn't use vermiculite at all, it's full of nutrition. RR has said so himself numerous times, and I've said it again and again as well. There is not a casing layer that I can think of that does not contain nutrients, there are simply those which are more or less contaminant resistant and thus hard to consume. Coir and vermiculite are more difficult to consume than say brf, but they can be consumed. Mushrooms can eat pure rocks, which are simply minerals after all, likewise vermiculite is just flakes from a silica based rock/mineral. A 'non nutritious casing layer' is truly an oxymoron as such a thing does not exist in nature. There are even plastic eating bacteria present in the open air it's simply how long it takes them to consume a material. Leave wet plastic sitting around long enough and it will eventually be broken down.
So the mycelium may feed off of the vermiculite as well as the brown rice? It's used both as a food and a way to maintain moisture? If that's the case then reusing it as substrate maybe less effective than using new vermiculite. I guess no one can know until a thorough experiment is conducted.
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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Re: Can I sterilize and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: nrgfx]
#18931126 - 10/04/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've been using these Youtube help videos as a guide and he mentions that some people like to reuse the top layer but he doesn't recommend it since 'it's been exposed to elements'. So if he meant contaminates, I'm guessing that as long as you sterilize it, it can be reused as substrate.
Go to time 6:12
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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: nrgfx]
#18931147 - 10/04/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Basically, yes. It's not unlike humans or animals (mushrooms are actually in the same classification as animals now), we can eat rocks too, we just call them minerals, and we don't go munching on actual 'rocks', but it would be technically incorrect to say 'humans cannot digest rocks.' Whether vermiculite is *easily* digestible or not I really don't know, I'd imagine it has a lot do with how it's prepared, how broken down the cellular structure is, and likewise how much water is present within it. Likewise I'm sure there is *some* way in which you could prepare an actual rock so that a human could readily digest the entire thing, but it's probably very infeasible, hence you don't find too many rocks in prepared foods lol. Kinda related, but I actually did come across this just the other day which I did not read very thoroughly because it simply seemed dumb, but upon first glance it does seem like a group of people that solely survive by eating rocks. Their stated reason for doing so is that they don't want to harm life and plants are alive, wonder what they'll do when they find out the dirt, air, and rocks within them are alive? Stop eating? Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Maybe the sites just a joke .
Edited by krypto2000 (10/04/13 01:09 PM)
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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: krypto2000]
#18931163 - 10/04/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: Kinda related, but I actually did come across this just the other day which I did not read very thoroughly because it simply seemed dumb, but upon first glance it does seem like a group of people that solely survive by eating rocks. Their stated reason for doing so is that they don't want to harm life and plants are alive, wonder what they'll do when they find out the dirt, air, and rocks within them are alive? Stop eating? Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Maybe the sites just a joke .
Oh wow, that's really different, I've heard of breatharians but not mineralarians. I think they watched The Never Ending Story one too many times when they were little. Rock Biter did make those rocks look delicious
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Rauhfasertapete
The Final Cauliflower of Doom!



Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 214
Loc: Upper Franconia
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: krypto2000]
#18931167 - 10/04/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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vermiculite is a clay mineral, there is nothing in it out of which any organism could get energy. Nothing could live from vermiculite alone, and practically it is not consumed by the mushroom. organisms may take up some cations from the clay minerals, but I dont think that this is relevant for mushroom growing. In PF-Tek it only serves as a matrix for the actual nutrient-containing rice flour to stick on.
-------------------- Ich will Eins werden mit dem Gewürm auf dem Felde! if mutual gift exchange is desired, follow this link
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
#18931182 - 10/04/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rauhfasertapete said: vermiculite is a clay mineral, there is nothing in it out of which any organism could get energy. Nothing could live from vermiculite alone, and practically it is not consumed by the mushroom. organisms may take up some cations from the clay minerals, but I dont think that this is relevant for mushroom growing. In PF-Tek it only serves as a matrix for the actual nutrient-containing rice flour to stick on.
Hear we go again....
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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krypto2000
Unknown


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Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: nrgfx]
#18931188 - 10/04/13 01:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Haha, yeah. I'm pretty sure it is a joke though. I was just reading it a bit more, there's no links on that page but I went up a directory which links to it and it says something like 'do not take these too seriously' before linking to the page. Definitely makes more sense, I would hope someone is not that backwards in their logic. I cannot imagine someone wanting to minimize suffering of bacteria and fungi and yet somehow thinking that synthesizing or breaking down rocks into a digestible form would not cause bacteria and other lifeforms to at least be changed in the process if not directly killed.
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nrgfx
Enthusiastic Beginner


Registered: 09/19/13
Posts: 35
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
#18931210 - 10/04/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rauhfasertapete said: vermiculite is a clay mineral, there is nothing in it out of which any organism could get energy. Nothing could live from vermiculite alone, and practically it is not consumed by the mushroom. organisms may take up some cations from the clay minerals, but I dont think that this is relevant for mushroom growing. In PF-Tek it only serves as a matrix for the actual nutrient-containing rice flour to stick on.
I don't have any bases as an argument to your point since I don't know enough about vermiculite. But can't it possibly get certain minerals from the verm? We have to take in minerals to stay healthy such as zinc, copper, iron, salt etc so maybe mycelium absorbs some minerals from the verm too? Maybe the combination of the calories/energy from brown rice coupled with minerals from verm might be why they thrive so well in that combination?
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krypto2000
Unknown


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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
#18931211 - 10/04/13 01:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rauhfasertapete said: vermiculite is a clay mineral, there is nothing in it out of which any organism could get energy. Nothing could live from vermiculite alone, and practically it is not consumed by the mushroom. organisms may take up some cations from the clay minerals, but I dont think that this is relevant for mushroom growing. In PF-Tek it only serves as a matrix for the actual nutrient-containing rice flour to stick on.
You're probably right, but I'm sure something can evolve or adapt to survive primarily, if not solely, on rocks. They're literally packed full of energy so it's just a matter of producing the enzymes to help digest it. Earth used to be just a big hot rock after all and were here now, we must have come from something right?
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Rauhfasertapete
The Final Cauliflower of Doom!



Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 214
Loc: Upper Franconia
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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: nrgfx]
#18931386 - 10/04/13 02:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't have any bases as an argument to your point since I don't know enough about vermiculite. But can't it possibly get certain minerals from the verm? We have to take in minerals to stay healthy such as zinc, copper, iron, salt etc so maybe mycelium absorbs some minerals from the verm too? Maybe the combination of the calories/energy from brown rice coupled with minerals from verm might be why they thrive so well in that combination?
It may take up some minerals from the verm, but this is not relevant for growing. Cereals already contain all these minerals in abundance that could be taken up from the verm. Moreover, Vermiculite contains quite some Mg, which is actually harmful for most mushrooms. But it still works well, so I conclude that the Mg (as well as the other minerals in it) is not easily available (like it would be when you´d use dolomite (MgCO3) as a substitute for lime (CaCO3)). Actually Cubensis eats almost everything; nutrition is not the thing you´ve got to worry about. I once found a list of other substrate ingredients like fatty acids, thiamine and iodine-rich kelp meal that some people thought to be growth boosters. These may be actually more interesting to try out. However, on basic hobby growers level it is probably not possible to compare such fine differences in substrate mixture. Too many parameters and too much subjective judgement. Sorry, it gradually goes off topic.
-------------------- Ich will Eins werden mit dem Gewürm auf dem Felde! if mutual gift exchange is desired, follow this link
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eLeSDenes
Mycelium Expander




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Re: Can I sterilze and reuse the top layer of vermiculite from pf tek jars? [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
#18931414 - 10/04/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wouldn't it be easier to just try it?:p
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