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jbbishop
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Registered: 04/16/11
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Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub
#18929917 - 10/04/13 06:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I had not originally thought my passing comments might be received as merited in the creation of a new thread. Unfortunately, I see that few of those that I would wish to consider this approach might be likely to actually read it. So, thank you all for your indulgence in this matter.
I find factions here divided: Martha Versus Modular. Misting and Fanning Versus Automation. It would seem that Martha is the automation solution of choice for some proponents of the greenhouse approach. I suspect for others that the absence of a modular system makes the more cumbersome nature of it rather less appealing.
I believe there are sufficient references indicating a preference for some efficient way of automating these tedious tasks since I last attempted to solicit interest in the notion that any reasonable solutions should not be overlooked. Surely one would have believed that various suitable approaches would have been advanced by now offering plausible approaches to achieving said automation in the modular Shotgun Tub system in respect of various multiples of individual units to be automated.
Unfortunately, a cursory overview of more recent posts related to the proposition fails to present for me a clearly suitable solution. Perhaps others may be able to refer to earlier proposals I might have overlooked that seem adequately effective for this purpose. On the other hand, in taking a moment today to again address the question for myself, I find nothing more appropriate to my tastes and intended purpose than an approach that would combine a couple of simple and readily available devices. Surely this approach seems reasonable, provided that the theory does in practice meet the requirements of the intended purpose. My mod is twofold.
First, I would retain the aqua pump system used in the old Pods (a steady state system). I had originally proposed bubblier stones in my single cake prototype and others have suggested wands in the bulk casing version -- but this only seems to me an adaptation of the original design and which was almost at once deemed unnecessary in actual application. In truth, one but needs a t-valve and a circular length of tubing that encircles the tub with intermittently spaced holes to allow air to issue at intervals, as for humidification and air exchange, the fine bubbles of the diffusion wands were deemed unnecessary. I use the tip of a soldering iron. In respect of ventilation and convection current elements of the Shotgun Tub's design, the function of the aqua pump would be rendered intermittent by incorporating a standard timing mechanism for facilitating only the necessary exchange of air at periodic intervals, especially essential in the absence of artificial illumination where associated convection currents were originally envisioned as a significant factor to reduce the necessity of even more frequent manual fanning. This was always a downside for me, however. I suspect that many, like myself, do not require or employ artificial lighting.
Second, the remaining task of misting could, I think, be quite effectively undertaken by introducing yet another pet supply store related product; the MistKing, an adaptable automated misting system.
http://www.mistking.com/home.php?cat=249
On the face of it, this seems to me an obvious effective alternative solution to the downside of daily, periodic manual maintenance. Then, if you would consider what I propose to try and if any apparent flaws in this system as conceived present to you, or if you have comments or suggestions, please respond.
That's right. In spite of increased yields afforded by the Shotgun Tub over the earlier steady state system (and while I very much appreciate the keen understanding which provided these great design improvements), as I have said before: I WANT IT TO BE AUTOMATED!
Automation was the single most outstanding feature that made the original old Pod great! That is exactly what it was designed for!
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dark3st
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop] 1
#18929941 - 10/04/13 07:11 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Way to make a post go on forever. 1/2 of those words used are unnecessary. Its not like writing a college report and you need to make 1 paragraph into 4.
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: dark3st] 1
#18929980 - 10/04/13 07:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
dark3st said: Way to make a post go on forever. 1/2 of those words used are unnecessary. Its not like writing a college report and you need to make 1 paragraph into 4.
QFT
Like reading a book that the publisher needed to be 500 pages when it started out at 250.
IMO, if you want full automation don't bother with a SGFC you can skip the perlite all together but balancing FAE and RH in a small tub is not worth the trouble for how much it would cost in comparison to a proper SGFC with 5 inches of perlite. If you want automation and are going to spend the money to do it to a SGFC you might as well make a martha or GH setup anyway.
Most importantly a SGFC shouldn't be automatic any way. Most people with a SGFC are new any way so the fanning and misting is only helping them pay attention more, which is good. You only really have to mist 3-5 times a day. If you're not able to do that then you probably shouldn't grow them any way.
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (10/04/13 07:37 AM)
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dusttodust


Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 491
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: dark3st]
#18929983 - 10/04/13 07:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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from every now and than someone tries too automatize their grow operation and they always fail, i also tried. It isnt worth your time&money, use search engine and you will find many threads like yours. dont get me wrong, you can automatize everything but in the end it will cost you much more and the results will be "same". if you have 2 much money go for it.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: dusttodust]
#18930013 - 10/04/13 07:49 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
dusttodust said: from every now and than someone tries too automatize their grow operation and they always fail, i also tried. It isnt worth your time&money, use search engine and you will find many threads like yours. dont get me wrong, you can automatize everything but in the end it will cost you much more and the results will be "same". if you have 2 much money go for it.
This, and most of the time the people that are trying to automate things are the ones that really need the work on diagnosing/tweaking fruiting conditions and as such could stand to do some more interaction with their grow.
Or the SGFC failed for them the first time around because they couldn't build it right due to the need to add all the extra crap to it. If they couldn't follow directions on a box with holes in it how the hell is a amazing fully-automated setup going to come about. The SGFC routinely out performs any ideas the people who came up with the SGFC had in automation and other engineer's attempts to make automated fruiting chambers.
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (10/04/13 07:51 AM)
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jbbishop
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: dark3st]
#18930097 - 10/04/13 08:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I feel I must apologize for having recently read entirely too much literature written in the manner and style of Jane Austin. My intention to offer a "post" on an Internet forum has now been branded as a muddled dissertation. I see now that I should have stuck with smileys. Why don't you do me a solid and re write the thing as you think it might read best and PM me with that. Thanks again for your time and thoughtfulness!
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#18930121 - 10/04/13 08:30 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jbbishop said: Why don't you do me a solid and re write the thing as you think it might read best and PM me with that.
The problem is no matter how much Jane Austonian flattery you give an automated setup it's still a steaming pile of shit. You polished the turd and now you want me to get rid of the polish and just leave a turd? I'm not going to do that.
Posted 30 minutes ago here, where you tried to sell a inattentive approach to aid laziness: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18919232#18919232
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
jbbishop said: I believe there are sufficient references regarding the preference for a way of automating these tedious tasks.
There is nothing tedious about taking care of one's hobby. The fan/mist times are when we carefully inspect our project for molds, pins, insects, and everything else which can ruin our day.
For the record, you're at least the 100,000th member to propose 'automated' terrariums, and all 100,000 previous attempts has failed.
For the original poster working 12 hour days, I was gone 14 hours per day under similar circumstances when I designed the shotgun terrarium. It's as close to automated as you're going to get with today's technology. Transducers stop working when flooded with water, which happens within 24 hours after placing in a high humidity environment.
Also, it's best not to mist at night/dark period. The lights cause a slight increase in temperature, thus a decrease in humidity. Misting during the dark period causes the fruits to stay wet until the lights come on, a recipe for molds and bacteria blotch.
One more word for the thousandth time to careless people who think hiding a terrarium with air pumps, lights, fans, etc., in a closet is 'hiding' anything, you're playing games with your own safety. Putting something like that in a closet calls attention to it. You make your own worst fears come to life. A terrarium should be on a shelf or table in the middle of the room in plain sight. This way, the kit your grandma gave you for your birthday attracts no attention at all. RR
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (10/04/13 08:32 AM)
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jbbishop
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#18930522 - 10/04/13 10:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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So far, I gather that people have tried and failed to automate Shotguns. It's unclear to me whether they failed because their approach wasn't effective and in that case perhaps the reasons for this may be more clearly understood. Certainly I sense some inherent pessimism behind the skeptical responses.
I like the modular system. There may be a number of reasons why someone might prefer a modular system over that of a greenhouse. I've used a fully automated system for about a decade. While having great appeal for me personally, the Shotgun's appeal is entirely conditional on whether it might be effectively automated. Once I had to attend a funeral in another state and was gone for over 8 days. The interruption wasn't a problem as the system takes care of itself. So sure, it would be nice to have the same kind of functionality here. In this way, 20 totes wouldn't make the shotgun concept an all day sucker, and one could attend to the garden.
I don't think there's another product quite like the automatic mister which I've referred to. I don't know of any other device which might do the job, but it seems to me that this one might. I would be interested to know the opinions of others regarding the mister and whether they think it might work here, of if they think it would not. If not, why? For what it's worth, I do not think that the price is too enormously high, provided that it might effectively achieve the intended result.
Edited by jbbishop (10/04/13 10:25 AM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#18930538 - 10/04/13 10:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Automation will work when it's hooked up to a camera that can detect the same conditions that human interaction is needed for, and then appropriately perform the required task.
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jbbishop
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#18930822 - 10/04/13 11:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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In my own experience with the automated system I have always used, it was always sufficient to attend to the garden no more than once a day and then, merely to to pick the fruits. There are no insects, for they are preemptively barred from being able to infiltrate the growing environment. You would never need to vainly apply malathion, because you don't allow insects in. There's no mold to catch at every moment. There's never any mold until the green mold comes and this is inevitable. That's all, you see it and it's done. You discard that. This is one benefit of the modular system because there is no cross-contamination.
At least that is my experience. But I start with cultures having less than 3% contamination, equal to autoclave standards and I do not have mold going in. Certainly care can be addressed to a sterile surrounding environment but I suspect that more opportunity for contaminants to enter is occurring when you fail to attend to sterile technique in the area and particularly when the terrarium is exposed to the environment, such as when removing lids for harvesting. To this extent I have generally believed that where you have atmosphere exchange, it is preferable where possible that it be a one way outward flow from internal pressure of air flow introduced through an antiseptic water barrier.
I really don't see what you need to be looking at every 6 hours unless you've got different problems than me, unless it isn't possible to insure proper even and adequate moisture for all of the cakes without manually applying the spay of mist as you suggest, is that what the reference to a camera like the human eye is all about? I guess I don't follow. Perhaps an automated mist that is programmable in as little as 1 second intervals might even be preferable because it could be applied more times per day, this way there might not be excessive dryness between hydration as I imagine could possibly occur with an irregular spraying schedule or over-saturation from too much direct moisture in attempting re hydration.
I'll make you a deal. I'll make the shotgun as a necessary process of gaining personal experiential knowledge of the system and how it works. I won't ask any questions because I'll have all the information I need to know from personal experience. Then, I can decide for myself, without asking for anyone's opinion whether I wish to consider trying something more modern than this spraying technique which was admittedly the state of the art 25 years ago.
Certainly I'll look into automated misting systems if I am able to determine from personal experience that it could be an effective alternative. I'm certainly capable of making that judgement for myself once I've done it your way once. But I'll grant that you're probably going to be right about me not wanting to go that way as this seems to be your consensus of opinion and you should know as you have worked with that system and I have not. Therefore I won't mention the possibility of any alternative because I see no reason in bringing it up again under any circumstances.
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Kizzle
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#18931114 - 10/04/13 12:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Misting is tedious? It takes 5 seconds I mean yeah my finger gets sore, sometimes I have catch my breath after lifting the spray bottle.
Seriously though intuition can fail us with some of this stuff. For instance you might think allowing contaminants through by removing the lid could increase contamination rate but in practice the opposite is true. Leave a slice out of bread out the open and put a slice in a box with a filter completely isolated from contamination and see which one gets moldy first.
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dark3st
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: Kizzle]
#18931136 - 10/04/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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OP I could look at the same cake over and over and over and not till the 6th looking over I could notice a contamination on the same day that could have been there from the day before but if I didn't continue to look at it it could have been easily missed and turn the whole grow sour..
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: dark3st]
#18931358 - 10/04/13 02:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
dark3st said: OP I could look at the same cake over and over and over and not till the 6th looking over I could notice a contamination on the same day that could have been there from the day before but if I didn't continue to look at it it could have been easily missed and turn the whole grow sour..
Nah bro.. OP went modular. it's cool
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dark3st
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: bodhisatta]
#18931464 - 10/04/13 02:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Damn!
OP, u lift bro?
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
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dark3st
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: dark3st]
#18932196 - 10/04/13 05:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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got a bad rating for something I said on this thread "rude member" what a dumb ass mother fucken a.
^ only rude thing I said. What a dumb ass whoever rated me bad and
-------------------- Back.. I'm going to do it...I'm getting sober from opiates ... I got weed, gabapentin, propranolol, and GHB, I have 100mg tramadol left. I can do this. I can do this. OFINTQWGVGAKGCYKBUBX free dark P. Tampanensis prints to ODD members.
no stamps atm FREE SEEDS for ODD WCA members ONLY I have these seeds: Orange, red, and yellow sweet peppers, Purple poppies, White Habanero, Yellow Thai, Bolivian rainbow peppers, milk thistle, red chilly pepper, HBWR.
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jbbishop
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: dark3st]
#18935940 - 10/05/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Which gets moldy first? A pile of rotten fruit, or a 50 year old bottle of fine wine?
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Kizzle
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#18936464 - 10/05/13 03:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The alcohol produced by yeast limits even it's own growth. We're trying to grow a fungus not preserve the substrate. Mushroom mycelium is resistant to mold for sure but it doesn't make the substrate uninhabitable to molds. Mushrooms grow well with an abundance of fresh air and molds have a hard time getting established in those conditions it's win/win.
Edit: Or in other words, wine stays good because the yeast produces alcohol which limits the growth everything including itself. It's not because the wine is kept entirely sterile the entire time. Mushroom mycelium does produce chemicals to prevent competitors from growing but they're not that effective.
Just saying though one of the benefits of a SGFC is the large amount fresh air exchange. It can't be improved if that aspect is not maintained and filters limit fresh air significantly and in the experience countless cultivators have been shown be completely unbeneficial on a fruiting chamber. If you're willing to skimp on FAE in order do avoid misting you might as well just go with a monotub. That's not to say air filters on a different level couldn't help reduce contaminants without limiting FAE.
Quote:
Perhaps an automated mist that is programmable in as little as 1 second intervals might even be preferable because it could be applied more times per day, this way there might not be excessive dryness between hydration as I imagine could possibly occur with an irregular spraying schedule or over-saturation from too much direct moisture in attempting re hydration.
A cycle of drying and rehydrating is actually beneficial, especially for inducing pinning but also for preventing things like bacterial blotching. If the goal is removing the need to manually mist it should maintain some of that aspect as well, constant rehydration wouldn't be good.
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Edited by Kizzle (10/05/13 03:40 PM)
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jbbishop
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#19002519 - 10/20/13 02:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for pointing out that alcohol inhibits contamination, even in an anaerobic environment. Like other inhibitors: such as Lysol and Hydrogen Peroxide. That being said, you have hit upon the fact that mycelium has only moderate resistance to contamination. Surely, the use of sterile technique involving anti-bactericides and anti-fungicides that do not directly come into contact with the mycelium is the direction to go -- in addition to using sterilized media.
In an Aeroponic/Geoponic hybrid automated system as proposed, I have stated that air exchange would not be limited by standard filtration; rather the air exchange would be accomplished through passing the air through an antiseptic water barrier. An example of this would be to pass the air through distilled water treated with Hydrogen Peroxide in a closed plastic jug before it is introduced into the fruiting chamber. A constant air pressure to maintain one-way air exchange, if not restricted by choking filtration systems, would inhibit the unintended introduction of exterior contaminants into the sterile environment of the fruiting chamber.
It is indeed to be determined then, what is the appropriate misting frequency to maintain adequate hydration without undue dessication. It had not been my intention lead others astray into over saturating.
Well reasoned comments.
Edited by jbbishop (10/20/13 02:33 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#19003314 - 10/20/13 10:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You mist as needed. There is no schedule and this is why so-called automated chambers always fail. Always.
You need an ebb and flow of substrate moisture content along with constant air circulation. You need fresh air, not sterile air and a varying humidity, not a steady-state humidity or steady-state temperature. New growers always confuse the difference between sterile procedure when inoculating, and non-sterile procedure when fruiting, thus try to filter air entering a chamber.
If you want to do this, just do it and then post the results here. You're not going to get much encouragement from those of us who have grown before because we realize this isn't something to automate. I even manually control conditions in my mushroom farm.
You won't be able to use transducers because they either short out or their capacitance changes at high humidity, rendering them useless. It takes eyeballs to know when to mist, not a timer. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Kizzle
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19004115 - 10/20/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, the mycelium actually has a high resistance to mold. It's the uncolonized substrate that doesn't, meaning most contamination happens before the mycelium has colonized the substrate, not during the fruiting process even though the contamination may not be seen until that point.
Obviously it's possible for even a fully colonized substrate to become contaminated but that's rare unless there's a very large source of mold nearby, which is why we toss contaminated substrates instead leaving them around to release spores. Just doing that will keep your contamination rate very low assuming you're also using good techniques for all the previous stages as well.
So often people are looking for the solution to their contamination problems in the wrong place. It's not about keeping your fully colonized healthy substrate isolated from all airborne contaminants, that's just not possible nor is it necessary.
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abltsandwich
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#19004214 - 10/20/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
jbbishop said: Thank you for pointing out that alcohol inhibits contamination, even in an anaerobic environment. Like other inhibitors: such as Lysol and Hydrogen Peroxide. That being said, you have hit upon the fact that mycelium has only moderate resistance to contamination. Surely, the use of sterile technique involving anti-bactericides and anti-fungicides that do not directly come into contact with the mycelium is the direction to go -- in addition to using sterilized media.
Why would you want anti-bactericides and anti-fungicides? We're trying to inhibit bacteria and fungus, not promote their growth. (Except the fungus we want )
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jbbishop
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: Kizzle]
#28540693 - 11/12/23 05:29 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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Look you A-holes I invented the goddamed Mono-Tub. If I chose to share my prototype only with forum administrators rather than publicly doesn't matter. How are you fools doing in reducing contamination and facilitating automation?
-------------------- How "Reverse Hydroponics" (The Monotub) originated from my original designs and Improvements to the Method -- Please read my Journal Entry. Hopefully this will clear up any questions or misunderstandings. Thank you Moderator for your assistance. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14476036
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Screwup
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#28540698 - 11/12/23 05:34 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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You really needed to necro with your own thread lol
-------------------- 🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼 🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿 Help US help YOU TEK 2023 Dehydrator TEK
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RockinRobot
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Re: Full Automation of Aeration and Humidification for the Shotgun Tub [Re: jbbishop]
#28540700 - 11/12/23 05:35 PM (2 months, 15 days ago) |
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Thread was BS 10 years ago and still is today
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