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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibleteknix
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Why there is "Free Will"
    #18929276 - 10/04/13 01:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Check out Hameroff works on "Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman" :


And a long interview on yourtube if you want something with more substance:





This is evidence that there is free will, because the randomness allows for it. If our actions were predetermined there wouldn't be randomness, and the neuron firing can be determined as objectively random using the Poisson distribution with P < .05 .


If our consciousness is built within the quantum framework, and our choices depend on consciousness, then much like SchrΓΆdinger's cat, there is room for free will by allowing both options to exist simultaneously. I think that's why Dawkins said "Treating people as machines may be scientifically and philosophically accurate, but it's a cumbersome waste of time if you want to guess what this person is going to do next."

So if a persons actions can't be predetermined, then what we are left with is that they are deciding their future through their actions and choices which are being made by them.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix] * 3
    #18929555 - 10/04/13 03:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

This has always been a moot subject to me.  Whether we have free will or not is unimportant imo. It feels like we do and that is what is important to the person.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18929659 - 10/04/13 04:35 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that you agree.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18929683 - 10/04/13 04:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

with what exactly?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18929688 - 10/04/13 04:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18929694 - 10/04/13 04:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

At least you are consistent as a debater. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18929703 - 10/04/13 05:00 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, when you're right you're right.

At least you are right once in a while. (Usually when you're agreeing with me.)

:wink:


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OfflineMemories
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18929884 - 10/04/13 06:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Dude, I'm only 8:30 into the second video, but it is great so far!

Is the first of comparable quality to the second?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Memories]
    #18930058 - 10/04/13 08:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

yeah interesting stuff:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18932670 - 10/04/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

'Quantum Soul' :eek:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18933167 - 10/04/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Random brain activity doesn't seem very meaningful in the context of free will.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18933176 - 10/04/13 08:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It feels like we do and that is what is important to the person.




Isn't that just a subjective interpretation of what is happening? Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18933707 - 10/04/13 10:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Random brain activity doesn't seem very meaningful in the context of free will.




Sure it is, I mean I explained that if our conscious is dependent on your brain and our choices come from thought and the neurons firing are what give us thoughts, then our choices are manifest from the quantum process, in which there are existing multiple possibilities at the same time. Once we choose one through observation and action, which ever one was chosen prevails into actuality.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Memories]
    #18933713 - 10/04/13 10:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Memories said:
Dude, I'm only 8:30 into the second video, but it is great so far!

Is the first of comparable quality to the second?




Nah, the first one is just a summary.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18933866 - 10/04/13 11:25 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I agree and suspect all thought is affected by quantum processes but there's no contextual relevance. Should a guilty party be proclaimed innocent by virtue of acting with free will?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18933887 - 10/04/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Rofl, that's backwards, for if the actions were predetermined they shouldn't be to blame because they were just doing what they were programmed to do. Accountability only works if there is free will.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18934073 - 10/05/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I agree about determinism, but I don't see any accountability anywhere, just things happening and people taking credit or making excuses. How do you account for the ins and outs of ethics with behavior based on fundamental randomness? That's what I was try to frame with my guilty party question.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18934090 - 10/05/13 12:21 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Because the organism makes the decision, out of many choices, which one they will act on.

All of the options are existing, like in SchrΓΆdinger's cat, but the difference is that we get choose which option will prevail, and that decision says a lot about us and who we are.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18934229 - 10/05/13 01:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I can't reconcile the concept of fundamental randomness forming a quality or personality.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18934273 - 10/05/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The randomness allows for choice, it isn't making the choice. (free will)

IE; Will is making the choice from a set of options through action and observation.


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