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Invisibleteknix
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Why there is "Free Will"
    #18929276 - 10/04/13 01:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Check out Hameroff works on "Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman" :


And a long interview on yourtube if you want something with more substance:





This is evidence that there is free will, because the randomness allows for it. If our actions were predetermined there wouldn't be randomness, and the neuron firing can be determined as objectively random using the Poisson distribution with P < .05 .


If our consciousness is built within the quantum framework, and our choices depend on consciousness, then much like SchrΓΆdinger's cat, there is room for free will by allowing both options to exist simultaneously. I think that's why Dawkins said "Treating people as machines may be scientifically and philosophically accurate, but it's a cumbersome waste of time if you want to guess what this person is going to do next."

So if a persons actions can't be predetermined, then what we are left with is that they are deciding their future through their actions and choices which are being made by them.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix] * 3
    #18929555 - 10/04/13 03:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This has always been a moot subject to me.  Whether we have free will or not is unimportant imo. It feels like we do and that is what is important to the person.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18929659 - 10/04/13 04:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I agree that you agree.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18929683 - 10/04/13 04:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

with what exactly?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18929688 - 10/04/13 04:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18929694 - 10/04/13 04:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

At least you are consistent as a debater. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18929703 - 10/04/13 05:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, when you're right you're right.

At least you are right once in a while. (Usually when you're agreeing with me.)

:wink:


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OfflineMemories
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18929884 - 10/04/13 06:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Dude, I'm only 8:30 into the second video, but it is great so far!

Is the first of comparable quality to the second?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Memories]
    #18930058 - 10/04/13 08:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

yeah interesting stuff:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18932670 - 10/04/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

'Quantum Soul' :eek:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18933167 - 10/04/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Random brain activity doesn't seem very meaningful in the context of free will.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18933176 - 10/04/13 08:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It feels like we do and that is what is important to the person.




Isn't that just a subjective interpretation of what is happening? Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.


--------------------
rahz

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18933707 - 10/04/13 10:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Random brain activity doesn't seem very meaningful in the context of free will.




Sure it is, I mean I explained that if our conscious is dependent on your brain and our choices come from thought and the neurons firing are what give us thoughts, then our choices are manifest from the quantum process, in which there are existing multiple possibilities at the same time. Once we choose one through observation and action, which ever one was chosen prevails into actuality.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Memories]
    #18933713 - 10/04/13 10:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Memories said:
Dude, I'm only 8:30 into the second video, but it is great so far!

Is the first of comparable quality to the second?




Nah, the first one is just a summary.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18933866 - 10/04/13 11:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I agree and suspect all thought is affected by quantum processes but there's no contextual relevance. Should a guilty party be proclaimed innocent by virtue of acting with free will?


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18933887 - 10/04/13 11:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Rofl, that's backwards, for if the actions were predetermined they shouldn't be to blame because they were just doing what they were programmed to do. Accountability only works if there is free will.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18934073 - 10/05/13 12:17 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I agree about determinism, but I don't see any accountability anywhere, just things happening and people taking credit or making excuses. How do you account for the ins and outs of ethics with behavior based on fundamental randomness? That's what I was try to frame with my guilty party question.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18934090 - 10/05/13 12:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Because the organism makes the decision, out of many choices, which one they will act on.

All of the options are existing, like in SchrΓΆdinger's cat, but the difference is that we get choose which option will prevail, and that decision says a lot about us and who we are.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18934229 - 10/05/13 01:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I can't reconcile the concept of fundamental randomness forming a quality or personality.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18934273 - 10/05/13 01:26 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The randomness allows for choice, it isn't making the choice. (free will)

IE; Will is making the choice from a set of options through action and observation.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935017 - 10/05/13 07:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Because the organism makes the decision, out of many choices, which one they will act on.

All of the options are existing, like in SchrΓΆdinger's cat, but the difference is that we get choose which option will prevail, and that decision says a lot about us and who we are.




But might not our current choice be determined by all of our previous experience?  That's always where I get stuck on this issue.  Were my childhood different I would likely be a different personality now.  I really can't choose to be a totally different personality as far as I know.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18935026 - 10/05/13 07:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There would still have to be that initial choice that was made without experience that all the other choices came from. So how would that first choice have been made ?

I'm not saying that everyone has free will in every circumstance, but you do get to choose what you are going to eat if you had made the choices to have a decent job that allows you to choose, or if you made poor choices your probably going to be eating within limited choices of what food stamps can buy you. But you still get a choice, and I really don't see how it could be any other way.

Or how would a vegan who was raised eating meat ever have become a vegan, or a person who was raised to be a Christian ever become an atheist?

If you choose to follow it, then you probably don't have any reason to believe there is free will, because you would just be doing as you were told all along.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935095 - 10/05/13 08:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I really don't know but I do see how small daily choices could be informed by unconscious needs ect. informed by everything that came before.  Our first act/choice might be made by our caregivers as in the beginning we don't differentiate between ourselves and our mother or so they say. That could get the ball rolling.  As I say I really don't know and I've been over this idea 100 times with no conclusion.  In the end, imo, it really doesn't make much difference as we "feel" that we have free will. 

Can you think of a way that it makes much difference ultimately if it feels like free will?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18935215 - 10/05/13 08:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935217 - 10/05/13 08:57 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

so give it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18935227 - 10/05/13 08:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No, it doesn't really apply to you.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935234 - 10/05/13 09:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

would it apply to anyone but you?:lol:

IMO there's no important reason to care one way or another.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblelessismore
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18935264 - 10/05/13 09:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I like the matrix quote

"all choices you have already made, now you're here to understand why you made them" :wink:

the matrix is pretty deep, I don't believe in coincidences, I believe that we were programmed from birth, and that programming is taken with us into adulthood and decides much of everything we do

(I think Jung said something about this too... where does our birth programming come from...archetypes..?, is it just our parents/environment only that is programming us?)

if you know a person when he/she is 5, you know a person when he/she is 30 it seems, at least those that I know

or maybe that is just self-suggestion?:wink: , I'd love to hear someone agree/disagree on that

do you know your old friends that you have known for 20+ years ?
or have they changed suddenly unexpectedly into something else

(drug use/stress doesn't count, it can make us not ourselves)


Edited by lessismore (10/05/13 09:28 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
    #18935278 - 10/05/13 09:12 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:  It seems at least a very likely possibility.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
    #18937788 - 10/05/13 08:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
I like the matrix quote

"all choices you have already made, now you're here to understand why you made them" :wink:

the matrix is pretty deep, I don't believe in coincidences, I believe that we were programmed from birth, and that programming is taken with us into adulthood and decides much of everything we do

(I think Jung said something about this too... where does our birth programming come from...archetypes..?, is it just our parents/environment only that is programming us?)

if you know a person when he/she is 5, you know a person when he/she is 30 it seems, at least those that I know

or maybe that is just self-suggestion?:wink: , I'd love to hear someone agree/disagree on that

do you know your old friends that you have known for 20+ years ?
or have they changed suddenly unexpectedly into something else

(drug use/stress doesn't count, it can make us not ourselves)




I don't see how that can be accurate, when if it were true, there would be  a pattern to be able to determine when someone is going to be a Terrorists, like all of the atrocities that took place should have been predicted.

And why do you lock someone up for just doing what they were programmed to do, I mean it wouldn't be their fault right? Why would we kill a murderer for murdering if he was simply programmed to do that?

Jung worked from problem based psychology rather than solution based. Sure if you look at the chain of even that led to your current situation in hindsight, you can blame everything on your parents, which is what you will get for 5 years and $50,000 when you consider his methodology seriously. Pointing fingers doesn't really help your future, it only allows you to dwell in the past. But if you look into the future and decide something you want to be or do, you have to choose specific goals to accomplish to get to that place that you chose.

If you consider solution based psychology you realize that it is up to you to make your future, and you focus on the bright spots and do more of it, not just do what you are programmed to do, you have to make the change or nothing is going to change. To do more of something you have to choose it, it doesn't just happen, and to me it sounds absurd.

You can blame everything on your earliest ancestors or you can take responsibility for your actions. I generally prefer the latter.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18937795 - 10/05/13 08:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you didn't choose anything ever, you would most likely die. Or how would you get a drink or something to eat?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18937802 - 10/05/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

90% of all people adopt the religion of their parents and easily believe handed-down superstitious nonsense. This makes a poor case for free will.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix] * 1
    #18937808 - 10/05/13 08:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Do bacterium exhibit free will? They must else they would all be dead, right? RIGHT?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #18939315 - 10/06/13 09:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

90% of all people adopt the religion of their parents and easily believe handed-down superstitious nonsense. This makes a poor case for free will.

I've always found it kinda hilarious how black people in the US who descended from former slaves almost-universally embrace the standard vanilla Christian faith, praise Jesus, go to church, and cherish the bible as if it's the only way to god and always has been for them and their ancestors.

Nevermind that their original religion was nothing to do with Jesus or sacred texts of any kind and had no priesthood. Christianity was shoved up their slave grandparents' ass when they were abducted from Africa and forced to join a new religion or get the living shit beat out of them or worse if they refused to bow down before the cross.

But check out any southern black church and you'll see them singing and swaying and holding up their hands like rabbit-ears communicating with god oblivious to the irony. How about that. PRAISE the lord! :yesnod:

This is evidence that there is free will, because the randomness allows for it.

Oh, by the way, Hameroff work on micro-tubules and protein folding, brilliant though he may be, has been discredited. And free will does not follow from randomness. Only randomness follows from randomness. All that can be derived from randomness is that the universe is not deterministic. But that's not the same thing as free will.

BTW, check out this BBC thing on interesting experiments underway to try and pinpoint where exactly in the he brain is the "you".



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18941352 - 10/06/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No, predetermination abhors randomness.

With randomness there cannot be predetermination.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18941413 - 10/06/13 05:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Do bacterium exhibit free will? They must else they would all be dead, right? RIGHT?




That question carry's with it a composition fallacy, or an assumption that we are equivalent to a bacterium.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18942015 - 10/06/13 07:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No, predetermination abhors randomness.

With randomness there cannot be predetermination.


Bla blah blah. I speak English. If you want a response from me, you'll have to do it in English. :sorry:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18942275 - 10/06/13 08:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Determination and randomness together explain something each alone cannot.


--------------------
rahz

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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18942280 - 10/06/13 08:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
90% of all people adopt the religion of their parents and easily believe handed-down superstitious nonsense. This makes a poor case for free will.

I've always found it kinda hilarious how black people in the US who descended from former slaves almost-universally embrace the standard vanilla Christian faith, praise Jesus, go to church, and cherish the bible as if it's the only way to god and always has been for them and their ancestors.

Nevermind that their original religion was nothing to do with Jesus or sacred texts of any kind and had no priesthood. Christianity was shoved up their slave grandparents' ass when they were abducted from Africa and forced to join a new religion or get the living shit beat out of them or worse if they refused to bow down before the cross.

But check out any southern black church and you'll see them singing and swaying and holding up their hands like rabbit-ears communicating with god oblivious to the irony. How about that. PRAISE the lord! :yesnod:

This is evidence that there is free will, because the randomness allows for it.

Oh, by the way, Hameroff work on micro-tubules and protein folding, brilliant though he may be, has been discredited. And free will does not follow from randomness. Only randomness follows from randomness. All that can be derived from randomness is that the universe is not deterministic. But that's not the same thing as free will.

BTW, check out this BBC thing on interesting experiments underway to try and pinpoint where exactly in the he brain is the "you".






Seems fairly cunning for a slave master to turn his slaves on to Christianity if you think about it.  "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."  It encourages one not to rebel, after all they'll get their reward and the last laugh in the end.


--------------------
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18942807 - 10/06/13 11:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
No, predetermination abhors randomness.

With randomness there cannot be predetermination.


Bla blah blah. I speak English. If you want a response from me, you'll have to do it in English. :sorry:




Ok, I'll spoon feed it to you:

If predetermination implies predictability, and random event cannot be predicted then they are not predetermined. If there are events that aren't predetermined, and these events are a part of the universe then the universe cannot be said to be predetermined.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18942953 - 10/07/13 12:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There is no problem with determinism and randomness operating together. QM and relativity both predict outcomes despite the fact that there must be some interaction between them.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18942982 - 10/07/13 12:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

They predict outcomes within probability, not precise outcomes.

Like, you know it will occur somewhere with a specific range, like here, or here, or here, but not here or here.

It's not precise predication that would occur if the act was predetermined.

The literal and actual occurrence is unknown.

So you're wrong. But nice try.

Another example would be drawing a circle and saying the lightning will strike somewhere within the circle, but the exact location of the strike cannot be determined.

Look up probability wave, wave function and wave packet if you want to learn more.


Edited by teknix (10/07/13 12:26 AM)


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18943058 - 10/07/13 12:55 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There are no precise outcomes but that doesn't mean physical laws aren't deterministic. What you're suggesting is a unified theory.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944477 - 10/07/13 11:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If predetermination implies predictability, and random event cannot be predicted then they are not predetermined. If there are events that aren't predetermined, and these events are a part of the universe then the universe cannot be said to be predetermined.

Duh!

So it follows that at the end of the day, we are random entities, not self-willed ones.

Note to audience: I happen to believe in free will, but not for reasons that can be easily defended. I've posted on the topic extensively so I won't do it again here. Search if you're curious.


--------------------
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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18944491 - 10/07/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So then how is one option chosen over another?


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944531 - 10/07/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

So then how is one option chosen over another?

I don't know. Currently nobody does, but neuroscience is closing in on the answer. And I have speculated on this. Again, if you're curious, use the search engine.

In any case, conclusions do not follow from not knowing something. That's like concluding that an unidentified light in the sky is an alien from alpha centauri on an interstellar vacation with his wife and two kids.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18944534 - 10/07/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I'm sure we can think of something . . . that is most probable . . . Oh wait, people already have . . . IT's called free-will.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Diploid]
    #18944592 - 10/07/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Currently nobody does

This has been my position all along. :imspecial:  And since it feels like we have free will the question is moot imo.


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944646 - 10/07/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, there is a most probable answer, just as with anything else.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944690 - 10/07/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That's subjective still at this point. If not the issue would have been basically resolved before we were born.  I've sat through this discussion for eight years here and we are no closer to having it resolved.  That's why I'm not involving myself much until I hear something new.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944694 - 10/07/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well, if the universe isn't predetermined then what are you left with.

(Use deductive reasoning here)

A or B

Not A

Therefore . . . .


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944703 - 10/07/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It is just not possible for you to consider determinism and random factors working together?


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18944716 - 10/07/13 12:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Not if the universe is said to be predetermined.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18944732 - 10/07/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Predeterminism is an old paradigm that is slowly dying out, most people don't really believe that shit anymore, but there are those idiots who continue to carry on and pass the torch to the gullible and naΓ―ve youth, which is why is takes a long time for a paradigm shift to take effect.

But once most people gain the knowledge necessary, it is pretty easy to drop the whole silly idea imo.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944735 - 10/07/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Well, if the universe isn't predetermined then what are you left with.

(Use deductive reasoning here)

A or B

Not A

Therefore . . . .




No one knows.  Human ideas about this stuff are always changing.  In a few years we could be thinking something totally difference based on some new findings which are also temporary.

My guess is ultimately, for us, reality is unknowable.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944738 - 10/07/13 12:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i think most of your 'ideas' are silly

:ass:


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: foliocb]
    #18944749 - 10/07/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks, if only you had any profound ideas of your own.

Why don't you put your idea's out there to be critiqued?

:eek:


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944761 - 10/07/13 12:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Well, if the universe isn't predetermined then what are you left with.

(Use deductive reasoning here)

A or B

Not A

Therefore . . . .




No one knows.  Human ideas about this stuff are always changing.  In a few years we could be thinking something totally difference based on some new findings which are also temporary.

My guess is ultimately, for us, reality is unknowable.




Sure it's unknowable, but that doesn't mean we can't consider what is most probable.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944770 - 10/07/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Of course. Have at it.  I'll go along with the general consensus, (for today). 

I'm too stoned to care in other words. :laugh:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944776 - 10/07/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Must be nice.

:tongue:


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18944803 - 10/07/13 01:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes indeed.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Icelander]
    #18944941 - 10/07/13 01:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would argue that most people do believe determinism has an effect on reality... not that the majority opinion is going to win me an argument.

Anyway, consider a game piece on a board. There are two rules. 1- the piece must move 1 step forward each turn. 2- There's a random chance the piece will move back 1 step.

From this you can see randomness and determinism operating on the same object. We can conclude via determinism that the piece will eventually reach the end of the board. We can conclude via randomness that it's not possible to determine when the piece will reach the edge.

Neither one on it's own can produce the reality we experience. If one of them could we would call it a unified theory.


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rahz

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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18947574 - 10/07/13 11:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The model you describe is just that, a model, it doesn't necessarily reflect the universe. Nor does it give evidence that the universe is predetermined, it is only assuming it before hand, and modeled in the same manner.

So of course a program that is never truly random is going to be predictable, all you need to do is reverse engineer the random number generator. Which may appear to be random, but it isn't really.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18947697 - 10/08/13 12:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's a model but it shows both can work together in a system. The universe is neither predetermined nor random. It assumes functions of both and this has been proven out in theory by a number of people but none of them have described a unified model. You seem to be suggesting you have.


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." β€”Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18962840 - 10/11/13 07:20 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's modeled in a computer which is predetermined and only emulating randomness, rather than being random.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18963224 - 10/11/13 10:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Your replies are the best evidence for determinism.


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rahz

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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18963322 - 10/11/13 10:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

How?

I just repeated the same thing I already said, which had already defeated the argument you posted after what I had said. So I repeat the same thing in a different way in hopes that you will understand the second time around.

Because to post a previously defeated argument only shows your lack of understanding.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18963381 - 10/11/13 10:51 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It was a joke made half seriously. You haven't defeated any arguments except in your own mind. You reply selectively and ignore information you cannot refute. Not worth the correspondence. You're like a broken record dude.

See you on the other side.


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rahz

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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: Rahz]
    #18963394 - 10/11/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

No, I defeated your analogy and showed how it is false. So as for your analogy, that you tried to rinse and repeat, is shown to be false and defeated.

Your position may remain intact, but that's likely because you like to keep it as yours and consider it as yours, rather than just a position.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18964326 - 10/11/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You already know what you're going to do, subconsciously, for you have been the same inside all your life

but sometimes you change what you do although it is hard

I think much is predetermined, but it might not be everything
seems possible to change temporarily/permanently, but maybe you didn't really change if you were able to do that

maybe you had just forgotten yourself and therefore lived differently temporarily

I like the 'God doesn't play dice' einstein quote, fits my experience
not much of a believer in QM/chaos ruling the universe (everything being a probability)
I think much happens for a reason, there is a reason for everything, no coincidences in the universe I see

In the end it is just personal belief :-) noone can say if free will is an illusion
I like jungs Archetypes discussion.... how did we get programmed early in our lives... have we changed during our lives?


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
    #18964444 - 10/11/13 03:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Einstein was obviously wrong about that. I prefer what Bohr said which is "Stop telling god what to do."  Because if there is a god, he is obviously playing dice.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: teknix]
    #18964481 - 10/11/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:-)

I like QM, it's quite beautiful and quite accurate for a statistical model....

but I just can't help thinking newtonian :wink:
don't see any coincidences... all choices we have already made

I think QM describes reality more than just what the "copenhagen interpretation" says (applied only on small scales)
everything is connected, everything is created by observing, you are everywhere/everything

but with that... still don't believe in coincidences


Edited by lessismore (10/11/13 03:23 PM)


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: lessismore]
    #18965531 - 10/11/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Example of free will:

Punch someone in face for no reason.


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Re: Why there is "Free Will" [Re: hTx]
    #18966678 - 10/12/13 01:23 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:curbyourenthusiasm::braindamage:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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