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krypto2000
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Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir.
#18926205 - 10/03/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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So pasteurized coir should be contaminant resistant for roughly 2 weeks. I have some coir in my cooler pasteurizer which I do not need and really have no place to store or dehydrate it, can I just keep it in the cooler and pasteurize it every week or two until I actually have spawn to use for it? Also, if I did do this, what actually happens on the microbial level? Would this ultimately increase the presence of beneficial organisms? If pasteurization limits the amount of harmful organisms then it would make sense that the beneficial ones would be stronger in number after the 2 week period is up, so if you pasteurize it again then it makes sense that the ratio of beneficial to harmful organisms is shifted even further towards the beneficial side, at least it seems to me that would be the case. At some point would the substrate even reach a max capacity of beneficial organisms, essentially being fully colonized, and thus *nothing* can grow on it? After that point it would seem mycilium could not grow on it either, yet if you then pasteurize it again it cuts back on the total amount of organisms present thus giving the mycilium a window to grow, yet the organisms already present have a strong foothold essentially ensuring nothing else but the mycilium could colonize it. Is this flawed thinking?
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budmanman
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18926231 - 10/03/13 02:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess you could call that fractional pasteurization? lol, well I am sure you would be the first person to try this and in theory it should work.
Every time you heat it and pasteurize it you should be bringing all beneficial and none beneficial bacteria down to about the same level each time.
Use this experience as a lesson on how to not make more substrate etc than you need in the future.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
Edited by budmanman (10/03/13 02:51 PM)
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krypto2000
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: budmanman]
#18926288 - 10/03/13 03:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Or as a lesson of how to make *really* proper substrate lol. Seriously though I didn't necessarily set out to make extra, but it's damn hard to divide a block of coir unless it's already hydrated and at that point you might as well pasteurize it. This seems like a good idea to me though, other than the shift towards more beneficial bacteria it would also, over time, shift the microorganisms to those that are actually in my environment as opposed to what is naturally present in the packaged coir which I would think would be a good thing for getting the mushrooms adapted to this specific environment. Ime, and from what I have read, mushrooms do get better over multiple successful grows for this very reason (assuming you pick strong fruits to clone from, make spore prints, etc) so perhaps this would just speed that adaptation process up even? Time will tell
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budmanman
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18926317 - 10/03/13 03:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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What you are stating about the microbes being from your environment probably will result in truth. Hopefully it goes well.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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krypto2000
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: budmanman]
#18926353 - 10/03/13 03:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm gonna go stick my hands in it right now
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budmanman
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18926408 - 10/03/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well lets not do that lol
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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Stromrider
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Registered: 06/02/13
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: budmanman]
#18926418 - 10/03/13 03:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Coir is really cheap and if I ever have any leftover I save it for use in the garden or my wifes flower bed. Or my flower bed
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krypto2000
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: Stromrider]
#18926447 - 10/03/13 03:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's cheap if you have any amount of money. I bought 6 bricks and cannot afford anymore so want to save it as best I can. Plus if this works out then it would actually be beneficial by increasing the amount of synergistic life within the substrate. If I see an improvement I may actually begin prepping all of my coir in advance since it's no extra work. Say you're in a schedule where you spawn a monotub every 2 weeks. Prep some substrate 2 weeks ahead of time. Then the day before spawning you prep another monotub worth and pasteurize it along with the previously pasteurized substrate. What this should do overtime is continually build up the beneficial organisms since when the original coir is being pasturized for the second time some of the organisms will be transferred over to the new brick of coir. Over time, I have no idea how long, your coir will essentially come out fully saturated with symbionts every single time. Just like aged wine except dirt, cow, and horse shit
I would think even that after a certain point of doing this you could even cut down your pasteurization time, maybe even eliminating it all together? Perhaps even you could just have a 'master' spawn 'culture' which is already colonized, take your new substrate and spawn some of the master to it which will then adjust the life within the substrate automatically, so long as you do it in advance at least. That would be awesome, wonder how difficult/how much time it would take to get there though. For that matter I wonder what a substrate fully colonized of only beneficial microorganisms would even look like? Would it look just like fresh poo, would it be full of fuzz? I have no idea.
Edited by krypto2000 (10/03/13 03:53 PM)
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Stromrider
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18926473 - 10/03/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I see what you're saying. If you try it let me know what happens
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retaardvark
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: budmanman]
#18926519 - 10/03/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
budmanman said: Every time you heat it and pasteurize it you should be bringing all beneficial and none beneficial bacteria down to about the same level each time.
I believe this not to be the case. I have read several times, and never heard anything contradictory to the idea, that the beneficial microbes are generally thermophilic or meso-thermophilic (they grow best in temperatures ranging from 90-160 F; I do not think we are cultivating any sort of extreme thermophiles that like 200+ F). This is in contrast to the ideal environment of the organisms we are trying to eliminate, which generally prefer around room temperature (mesophiles).
In my mind, the mechanism of pasteurization is allowing thermophilic organisms to spread throughout the substrate during and immediately after pasteurization, but which cease to be highly active after cooling; the organisms begin colonization of, but do not really actively digest, the substrate. This would prevent flourishing of competitor microbes while leaving much of the nutrition intact.
I would love to be corrected if this doesn't hold true.
As far as re-pasteurizing, I think it would work just fine. I've never heard anything about pasteurizing lessening the nutritional profile of a substrate; and if the texture remains acceptable, I don't see how any other problem could arise.
Edited by retaardvark (10/03/13 04:06 PM)
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krypto2000
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: retaardvark]
#18926550 - 10/03/13 04:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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So perhaps it would then be better, in my case, to pasteurize and then leave the cooler/steam box closed until next time? If pasteurization works as you're suggesting then the only life left would be thermophilic and thus since the cooler/pasteurizer is no exposed to open air those same organisms would have nothing to compete with in colonization of the substrate since the entire environment surrounding them has also been pasteurized? Do you know what would happen if it was, for discussions sake, a completely closed environment and you pasteurized the substrate and then left it for an extended period of time? In particular I wonder what the substrate itself would look like once fully colonized by thermophiles, would it look any different on the macro scale or would it just look like it did before pasteurization?
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18926839 - 10/03/13 05:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would think you would be better off letting it dry out as much as possible and then rehydrate/re pasteurize again later.
Leaving it in the cooler is not going to prevent contams from getting in and moisture accelerates the growth of most pathogens.
If left wet, I would imagine SOMETHING would want to colonize it. My first bet would be on cobweb mold.
Although coir is contam resistant, it is not contam proof.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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krypto2000
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18926885 - 10/03/13 05:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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But wouldn't the majority of things present after pasteurization be beneficial organisms and thus they would be most likely to colonize it? Say it's pasteurized and the beneficial life is knocked down to 1% of what it was, but now has a stronger foothold then what we're trying to eliminate. If you then left it a week both would grow (as I assume there are still harmful organisms present), but now you have a greater ratio of beneficial organisms. Lets say you wait until the beneficial organisms are now five times as prevalent within the substrate as they were before pasteurization so then you pasteurize it yet again at this point. Now after pasteurization whatever the number of bacteria present you should, if I'm understanding this right, have an even greater ratio of beneficial organisms to the harmful ones. You can repeat this process ad infinum and get a greater and greater presence of beneficial microorganisms (theoretically you could never reach 100%, but you can reach 99% and extend the decimals out to any number of significant digits with repeat cycles).
Is this not how pasteurization works? Do the beneficial microorganisms not grow in lower temperatures or are they outpaced by the harmful ones, and would the harmful ones still be present in significant number to matter post pasteurization? The cooler is not truly closed, but close to it, so it doesn't matter if harmful organisms seep in because I would think that one, beneficial ones also come in which will at least offset it somewhat, and two is that if you just keep cycling it the beneficial ones will grow anyway.
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Stromrider
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18926942 - 10/03/13 05:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am going to have to go with SpitballJedi on this one. I think you're best bet is to let it dry back out and then re-hydrate it and re-pasteurize it when you're ready for it
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krypto2000
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: Stromrider]
#18926989 - 10/03/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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What's your reason for thinking so though? I'd agree that's likely safer since what I'm thinking is simply unknown, at least to anyone so far in this thread I would assume, and we do know drying it out is safe. However might what I'm thinking be beneficial? Does my logic at least seem sound enough to warrant an experiment you think?
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Stromrider
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18927033 - 10/03/13 06:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah if you don't mind the possible risk and loss of good spawn then go for it. It might work but like you said we have no way of knowing for sure. I just figured after 2 weeks sitting in the cooler you'd have a lot of nasties beginning to grow but I guess with proper pasteurization technique there is no reason to think you couldn't kill them off
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: krypto2000]
#18927069 - 10/03/13 06:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Part of the problem with both of our arguments is that neither of us really know what exactly happens on the microbial level after pasteurization. We may have some sense of it at best. But I can't name a beneficial microbe if you put a gun to my head, much less how fast it colonizes and how well it defends it's territory.
Even a beneficial organism can become destructive in large quantities.
Some pathogens are more aggressive than others.
Even a perfectly pasteurized coir substrate will lose to contamination if you add contaminated spawn...even coir.
If you do as you propose and it turns out that the beneficial microbes have gotten a serious foothold on your substrate, then it is still possible for a stronger, more aggressive, albeit smaller amount, of another pathogen to take over.
I'm certainly not saying you are wrong. But I'll just save up 4 bucks and buy another brick.
My money is still on letting it dry if you're trying to save it. Regardless of logic and conjecture, my life experience has taught me that dry generally keeps longer than wet. 
I would be interested to see the results of some experiments though. When in doubt, whip it out. The proof is in the pudding. Insert another cheesy "just do it" cliche" here.
-------------------- The Basics A little civility goes a long way The Noob Forum The Hammock Hangers' Forum
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Sockadin



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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: Stromrider]
#18927075 - 10/03/13 06:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have pasteurized coir/verm in jars sitting in my cabnet for 2 weeks. Nothing going on in there. I don't see why this couldn't work.
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Skinty
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: Sockadin]
#18927112 - 10/03/13 06:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I always find it confusing to know how to respond to someone who has been registered here 7 years but comes across as an autistic 10 year old
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krypto2000
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Re: Couple atypical questions on hydrated coir. [Re: Skinty]
#18927221 - 10/03/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Haha, the mushrooms keep me young, and keep me asking questions/weeking knowledge.
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