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Offlinelysergic
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Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media
    #1892577 - 09/08/03 01:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

What a shock, Micheal Moore lied and manipulated the people that watched this movie. If liberals are right, why do they have to lie all the time?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1892591 - 09/08/03 01:33 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I can't stand Moore. What a pompus jackass. Candadian Bacon was good though...


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1893169 - 09/08/03 06:46 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

MICHAEL MOORE IS A TWO BIT HACK LIBERAL PROPOGANDIST ASSHOLE.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1893171 - 09/08/03 06:51 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I never get tired of hearing how pathetic Michael Moore is, no matterhow many times it is repeated. LearyFan is in love with the man.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1893261 - 09/08/03 09:12 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

What a shock, Micheal Moore lied and manipulated the people that watched this movie. If liberals are right, why do they have to lie all the time?



That's the biggest sweeping statement I've ever heard. Just because one liberal lies that means ALL liberals are liars? I guess that means all Republican presidents are liars because Nixon was, then?
I liked Bowling for Columbine - it may be flawed, it may be sensationalist but the point behind it about the fear-mongering of the American media, and the fact that he didn't just settle for the banning guns rhetoric made it a worthwhile film as far as I'm concerned.
Just like most people with any agenda, they skewer the truth to fit what they expect or what they believe, just like many people do with statistics, often subconsciously. That's why it pays to skeptical. But don't say all liberals are liars just because Moore lied in Bowling for Columbine. That's a ridiculous generalisation.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlinest0nedphucker
Rogue State
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1893265 - 09/08/03 09:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It was a generalisation, but have you actually read the information. Bowling for Columbine was a complete fabrication, the part it describes was literally put together sentence by sentence it is completely misleading.


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The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1893290 - 09/08/03 09:35 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, well admittedly, there are alot more lies than I expected, I don't know who to trust to be honest because I haven't heard any defense of the accusations sot hey might be bollocks too. I still like Moore though, I think the Awful Truth is great. He has the difficult job of trying to make politics interesting and palatable for the masses. It's the same with Stupid White Men, I guess - it's a good book but I don't believe everything that's in it. I agree though that if he knowingly lies that is pretty fucking low considering what he preaches about.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1893307 - 09/08/03 09:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Knowingly lied would be an understatement, he has meticulously spliced sentences together from speeches made in different places a year apart. It would be like me taking segments from each of your posts, quoting it as an actual statement you made, then portraying you as a fanatical Nazi....

He is simply a hypocrite, that like the media distorts the truth for their own agenda.



--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #1893331 - 09/08/03 09:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Haha, like Chris Morris did with the Bush speeches? That's pretty fucking bad, actually if that's true.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleEdame
gone

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Loc: outta here
Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1893453 - 09/08/03 11:00 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Why are people getting so worked up over a movie anyways?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1893473 - 09/08/03 11:06 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe because Moore tries to portray lies, as fact in it?


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1893478 - 09/08/03 11:08 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

And for the simple fact that some people use his work to justify their arguments lol


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1893797 - 09/08/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Read this for a good laugh concerning Captain Fiction.

Moore Watch


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1893846 - 09/08/03 01:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
Read this for a good laugh concerning Captain Fiction.

Moore Watch



A priceless find.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1893922 - 09/08/03 01:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I usually take things I read on the internet as "fact" with a few grains of salt. Like the single link you posted above.

A world viewed movie would seem to be a better place to find facts. Especially as it was backed by millions of people.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: angryshroom]
    #1893934 - 09/08/03 01:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

How was it 'backed by millions of people'? Just because they watched it? I can probably convince a million dumbasses that dog turds taste good. That doesn't mean it is true.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: angryshroom]
    #1893942 - 09/08/03 01:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

A world viewed movie would seem to be a better place to find facts.



So the more people who view a movie the more truth there is in it?
I guess that means there really are wicked witches, cowardly lions, and walking tin men since the Wizard of Oz is one of the most viewed movies in history.


Quite a silly thing for you to say. There are many web sites which go through that lying fuckwads movie and show where all the bits and pieces that Moore pieced together actually came from.

Face it, the libbie darling Moore is a lying tub of shit. He's as worthless as his movie is.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1894217 - 09/08/03 02:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I think that Micheal Moore is a typical self-hating liberal. Years of "whitey is a bad man" TV has caught on, and now it's kinda chic to hate your own kind (as long as you are white, of course!). It's funny how people (and I mean everyone here) overlooks the fallacies of the parties/agendas that htey support, but jumps on others as soon as they make the mistake. Moore's books are as worthless and made-to-support-him as the movie was. If you have to lie or bend the truth to support your position, then you yourself can't believe your position. Moore has to understand that all of the stuff he put in the movie is incorrect, yet he still enjoys lying to himself. It would be as if I made a sound clip of singular words of Kofi Anan that said "The purpose of the UN is to commit genocide worldwide, gas Jews, and put weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Arab Extremists". I'd know that it wasn't true and that I fabricated it, so how could I have feelings about it? Micheal Moore is just another lying, media-controlling, liberal hebe.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: angryshroom]
    #1894274 - 09/08/03 03:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)



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Anonymous

Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: ]
    #1894360 - 09/08/03 03:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

go read his website www.michaelmoore.com

what a fucking douchebag, i'd like to piss right in his fucking mouth.


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OfflineClover
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1894373 - 09/08/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I thought Bowling for Columbine was hilarious. The whole walking into the bank to open an acccount and receiving a free shotgun was greatness. I knew it *had* to be a spoof. It was pure entertainment. Light-hearted family viewing.  :lol:

Seriously, though, I never thought twice about the fact that it was supposed to be a documentary. It never really occurred to me to view it for anything other than entertainment value. It is quite unfair that he wom an Oscar for it  - it is a slap in the face of authentic documentary artists and ethnographers. 


--------------------
"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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OfflineGus
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Clover]
    #1894426 - 09/08/03 03:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Why in the USA theres over 10 000 murders wich involved guns ?
Bunch of psyco ! :wink:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1894530 - 09/08/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

This is the same reason i just raise my hands and say "fuck it, what's the point?".

A lot on this site use internet sites and movies as sources when in fact any numbnut can make a movie (Roger and Me and Bowling for columbine) and a website. Just because it's written, doesn't make it so.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1894627 - 09/08/03 04:24 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I always thought Michael Moore was a fake dissident planted by the Illuminati and the KKK with the purpose of discrediting all serious criticism of the flaws of western civilization. Anyone who promotes a book with the title "Stupid White Men" automatically legitimizes other racist/collectivist labels like "Stupid Negro Women", "Stupid Japanese Children", "Stupid Jewish People", etc.


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1894809 - 09/08/03 05:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yea, micheal moore is either a jew, or the jew-media has implanted the bug of "white hate" in him. either way, he is a fuckwit. I think that someoen should lock him and Charleton Heston in a room together with one gun, and let them fight to the death.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1894815 - 09/08/03 05:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That would be a short fight. "Get your damn dirty paws off me you lying bastard!". Bam!


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1894821 - 09/08/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If all the criticisms of Bowling for Columbine are true why aren't they more well known and spoken about considering the fact that most people in the establishment probably hate his guts? That's the one thing I don't get. If any other documentary came out that was a smash hit world-wide based mostly on lies you'd think there'd be an uproar about it.
I'm not denying those things are ture but there is such thing as a smear campaign. If those criticisms are written down as fact how the fuck do i know that they aren't wrong either?

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894833 - 09/08/03 05:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You have to search out the facts for yourself and make your own decision.


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Anonymous

Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894839 - 09/08/03 05:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

they cite sources.

did you read any of it?


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Clover]
    #1894852 - 09/08/03 05:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, and Moore cited sources in Stupid White Men and I've heard that being panned too.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894861 - 09/08/03 05:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Just out of interest, how many of you on here posting this stuff about Moore support the NRA or are anti-gun control?

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894865 - 09/08/03 05:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I am. I hate Anne Coulter equally though. :rolleyes:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894867 - 09/08/03 05:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

See the link in my sig.

People can be anti-gun. I think that's foolish but I can respect it as their opinion. It's when people lie that I find them to be scumbags.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894900 - 09/08/03 05:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

uh..


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Anonymous

Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894946 - 09/08/03 05:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

A responsible, well-armed and trained citizenry is the best protection against domestic crime and the threat of foreign invasion. America's founders knew that. - www.lp.org

Quote:

Visitors to Switzerland are astonished to see guns and rifles being carried openly in public -- particularly when there is a "shooting festival" occurring nearby. In fact, Switzerland has more firepower per person than any other country in the world -- yet it is one of the safest places on Earth.




http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd061099b.html

stuff it.


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894966 - 09/08/03 05:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I just read the 'The Truth about Bowling' website and it is interesting. He has manipulated speeches etc. for his own agenda (as many do, unfortunately). I still think Bowling for Columbine makes some good points about the fear mongering of the American media and the fact that their are handguns in other countries but not nearly as many gun-related deaths - not even in proportion to the population sizes.
I also still think 'Stupid, White Men' is a good book for being well-sourced (despite what people say) and making politics palatable and interesting for most people. Anything that gets people interested in politics at the moment is a good thing in this day and age.
You're right though, the lying isn't excusable.

UH

P.S. No guns over in UK, thank god, I'd be scared to leave the fucking house if some of the nutters I know were allowed guns.


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894977 - 09/08/03 05:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Actually, with a little research you'll find that the states with the LEAST gun control laws, have the lowest crime rates.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: ]
    #1894981 - 09/08/03 05:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

immaculate said:
A responsible, well-armed and trained citizenry is the best protection against domestic crime and the threat of foreign invasion. America's founders knew that.



Surely it also gives the people who cause domestic crimes the ability to get a gun a lot more easily even if they have to go through the black market. Who the fuck is threatening to invade America enough that the general population will need to have guns? You have the most powerful country in the world and a massive military - surely you should cut down on your military funding if most people are so well-armed and well-trained?

UH


--------------------
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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1894996 - 09/08/03 05:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Actually, with a little research you'll find that the states with the LEAST gun control laws, have the lowest crime rates.



Yeah but that's in America, that's the way your society now works. In England where there are no guns... hmmm... 20 deaths per year from handguns. At least if you get stabbed there's a good chance you'll live.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1894997 - 09/08/03 05:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe that is what Clinton thought. Some of the problems we are having in Iraq would not be an issue possibly, had he not destroyed our military.


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Anonymous

Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1895266 - 09/08/03 07:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

did you over look my statement regarding switzerland?

its obvious that if everyone has a gun, people are less likely to use them.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: ]
    #1895292 - 09/08/03 07:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

As far as I understand it, the reason for the high gun ownership in Switzerland is due to their militia system. They may have lots of guns and rifles, but they are trained during their military service on how to use them responsibly. As far as I'm aware, no such system is widespread in the US.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
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In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1895324 - 09/08/03 07:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Also, considering the abuse that Moore seems to be getting on this thread, how does everyone feel about FOX news? In a recent lawsuit, FOX argued in their defence that it was not against the law to lie or distort the news. How's that for 'Fair and Balanced'?

Quote:


http://www.foxbghsuit.com/ja021903.htm

Accepting a defense rejected by three other Florida state judges in at least six separate motions, a Florida appeals court has reversed the $425,000 jury verdict in favor of journalist Jane Akre who charged she was pressured by Fox Television management and lawyers to air what she knew and documented to be false information.

In a six-page written decision released February 14, the court essentially ruled the journalist never stated a valid whistle-blower claim because, they ruled, it is technically not against any law, rule, or regulation to deliberately lie or distort the news on a television broadcast.

In the lawsuit filed in 1998, Akre claimed she was wrongfully terminated for threatening to blow the whistle to the FCC. After a five-week trial that ended August 18, 2000, a six-person jury was unanimous in its conclusion that she was indeed fired for threatening report the station?s pressure to broadcast what jurors decided was ?a false, distorted, or slanted? story about the widespread use of growth hormone in dairy cows.

In overturning the jury on what amounts to a legal technicality, the court did not dispute the heart of Akre?s claim, that Fox pressured her to broadcast a false story to protect the broadcaster from having to defend the truth in court, as well as suffer the ire of irate advertisers.




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1895383 - 09/08/03 07:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Technically correct.

Morally repugnant.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineClover
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Gus]
    #1895599 - 09/08/03 09:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Gus said:
Why in the USA theres over 10 000 murders wich involved guns ?
Bunch of psyco ! :wink: 




Are you ASKING a question or MAKING a statement? I cannot tell from what you posted.
All I know is that Michael Moore must be taken with about 10 million grains of salt and a sense of humor. 


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Clover]
    #1895735 - 09/08/03 09:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

think gus was being sarcastic.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1896299 - 09/09/03 12:30 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
Yea, micheal moore is either a jew, or the jew-media has implanted the bug of "white hate" in him.  either way, he is a fuckwit.  I think that someoen should lock him and Charleton Heston in a room together with one gun, and let them fight to the death. 




Thank you.

Thank you for strengthening the inherant notion I have.  Then notion that makes me fucking pro nuclear.  GODDAMMIT you people make me pro nuclear.  Viruses with shoes.  I swear to god.

Fucking moron.

Oooops.  I think that was a flame!

/e leaves this fucking board again after remembering why he left the first time. 


--------------------
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1896823 - 09/09/03 03:20 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Someone outta whip his fat doughy white wussy ass. Shakta and lyseric are right.


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OfflineDemiurge
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1896910 - 09/09/03 03:46 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I saw Moore speak at a Green Party Rally, and all I could think was "What a fucking prick!" I can't stand him and I consider myself to be pretty liberal.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Demiurge]
    #1896982 - 09/09/03 04:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It wouldn't be so bad if it hadn't won an award for best "documentary" and were instead sold as a work of fiction.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1897005 - 09/09/03 04:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

It wouldn't be bad if he wasn't simply whipping the liberal dogs into a little frenzy so he can soothe his own huge ego.
It wouldn't be so bad if he did a blaine-esque trick tying himself to a lampost for 10 days while people pistol-whip him....

All criticism/abuse constructive or not should be mailed too

mike@michaelmoore.com






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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1897833 - 09/09/03 01:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
It wouldn't be so bad if it hadn't won an award for best "documentary" and were instead sold as a work of fiction.




Precisely


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1897940 - 09/09/03 01:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks, you're the only person to respond to my question so far, unsurprisingly the Moore bashing continues.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1897969 - 09/09/03 01:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
Thanks, you're the only person to respond to my question so far, unsurprisingly the Moore bashing continues.


Hey no problem. You seem to be one of the few I haven't pissed off in the last few days.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1898314 - 09/09/03 03:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You haven't pissed me off. But then, nobody has.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Autonomous]
    #1898327 - 09/09/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

:lol: Give me time!

It's what happens when you say what you think and don't toe the PC line.

I've learned to live with it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1898794 - 09/09/03 05:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

man, I had serious problems with this movie.

especially that southpark style cartoon "History of America", which was so bigoted and one sided it prompted me to throw things at the television.

But on the other hand, it made some very good points apart from its bigoted, sensationalist side. I was very fascinated with the whole Canada thing... Seeing that movie really made me want to move there.

All in all, I say that as long as it is watched with the facts in mind and a keen eye for BS, Bowling for Columbine is at the leasty enetertaining and at the most slightly informative.

PS- my favorite part was the Marylin Manson interview- classic! Mr. Manson really showcased his intelligence on that one.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1898978 - 09/09/03 06:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I'd enjoy beating that doughboy fatass beefytits motherfucker around some. Stupid fat bastard. I can't stand slovenly, pissed off, liberal fatasses. What a shitty combination. I wish that he would have been in NYC on 9/11


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1899335 - 09/09/03 07:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I wish that he would have been in NYC on 9/11




Wow, that was a pretty fucking stupid thing to say. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1899837 - 09/09/03 09:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

innvertigo - You could either interpret that as me saying I wish he died, or as me saying that I wish he firsthand got to see what happened there so he might hate "white men" a little less.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1899850 - 09/09/03 09:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe he would have written "Stupid Brown Men" instead.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1899971 - 09/09/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Maybe he would have written "Stupid Brown Men" instead.




Or he could have called it "Stupid Human Kind".


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1900251 - 09/09/03 11:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Maybe he would have written "Stupid Brown Men" instead. 




Ouch. :smile:

I don't think there would have been enough money to be made from a movie with that title.  And after all, that is what Mooreon really is about.

12 sandwich eating bastard that he is. 


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1900363 - 09/09/03 11:57 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

And the real question begging to be asked is... why are they getting so worked up about a movie, yet could give a fuck less about the lies regurgitated nightly on their news?

How is Micheal Moore any different then a selected president's speeches linking Iraq to 9-11 with lies and forged documents? Come on folks, its entertainment.. yet your country goes down the tubes and it's patriotism.

What poppy cock.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1900575 - 09/10/03 12:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

When entertainment is passed off as non-fiction what blind fool wouldn't be bothered by that?


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1900652 - 09/10/03 01:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

A recent poll shows that 69% of Americans now think that Saddam Hussein was (directly) tied to 9/11 in some fashion.

Is this because there is any evidence to that end? Nope. It is because the Bush cabal has, time and time again, mentioned those two topics in the same sentence. Over and over... without ever clarifying that they were two different topics.

So, what y'all are saying is that it's okay for our fucking president to do this - to use this unchecked doublespeak to swing popular opinion in (a very very predetermined) direction, but if a filmmaker does something similar to prove a point, then he should be, and I quote:

"beating that doughboy fatass beefytits motherfucker around some. Stupid fat bastard. I can't stand slovenly, pissed off, liberal fatasses. What a shitty combination. I wish that he would have been in NYC on 9/11"

Who the fuck are you people, really?

No... really...


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1900687 - 09/10/03 01:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If someone lies to prove a point does that automatically make the point false?

Lying is lying no matter who does it. I don't see the point arguing "why argue about this and not about that". If you want to argue about something else, then start another thread.


Maybe Hussein was an immediate threat and maybe he wasn't. He probably wasn't, but to me that is a moot point. We got him out of power, and to me, if Iraq pulls out of this and becomes 90% less fucking insane then I am satisfied with the results.

If on the other hand this all blows up in our faces, the situation doesn't get any better, or gets even worse (for us, but especially for them) then I will be pissed. As it is right now, I'm wary.



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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: lysergic]
    #1901031 - 09/10/03 03:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Funny that I see this post, I am watching this movie as we speak. I don't agree with the movie entirely but find it interesting. I thought it was interesting when he mentioned the amount of gun murders in the US compared to other countries. I guess things just work differently out here. I guess murder is as American as apple pie IMO... haha. As a hardcore gun advocate I thought it would be interesting seeing this movie since I've always taken an interest in the columbine shootings. Yea... there is a lot of bullshit in this movie... but I liked certain parts of it.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: psilocybe cubensis]
    #1901048 - 09/10/03 03:58 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Ten million children under five die of gunshot in America every day.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1901342 - 09/10/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

edit: Moore is brilliant.


Edited by farfelu (09/10/03 10:07 AM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: farfelu]
    #1901360 - 09/10/03 09:31 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What the hell are you rambling about? The point of the thread is that Moore is a damn liar.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: farfelu]
    #1901485 - 09/10/03 10:19 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i liked your first post better.

indeed, shakta, he is a liar.

fucking propagandizing asshole, too.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: ]
    #1901548 - 09/10/03 11:03 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Who are you people?


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: farfelu]
    #1901567 - 09/10/03 11:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

farfelu said:
Who are you people?



People who don't like lying sacks of shit like Moore.

If he had done his movies without the lies, fabrication and bullshit, perhaps many would have a different opinion of him.

What I want to know is.... who are you people who still idolize him after seeing what a lying asshole he is? Does the truth mean nothing to you or are you just comfortable with lies?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1901978 - 09/10/03 01:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The same could be said for Bush. People believe what they want to believe.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1901987 - 09/10/03 01:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
The same could be said for Bush. People believe what they want to believe.


As shown by the contents of several recent threads... yes they do.

Often with no basis in fact.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1901989 - 09/10/03 01:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
The same could be said for Bush. People believe what they want to believe.




Somehow I knew this post was going to say the exact same thing it does Edame. There is a HUGE difference between the two. We have no proof Bush has lied about anything.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902045 - 09/10/03 01:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There's a huge difference alright. Michael Moore's making films, his decisions don't directly affect millions of lives all over the world.

Take a look at the quotes below. If MM had made a film with those claims, I'm sure some of you would be lining up to take a shot at him.


Emphasis mine:

Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.
George W. Bush, President
Speech to UN General Assembly
9/12/2002


Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons. We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have
George W. Bush, President
Radio Address
10/5/2002


After eleven years during which we have tried containment, sanctions, inspections, even selected military action, the end result is that Saddam Hussein still has chemical and biological weapons and is increasing his capabilities to make more. And he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon.
George W. Bush, President
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
10/7/2002


We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas
George W. Bush, President
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech
10/7/2002


Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.
George W. Bush, President
Address to the Nation
3/17/2003


But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them.
George W. Bush, President
Interview with TVP Poland
5/30/2003


You remember when [Secretary of State] Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons ...They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two...And we'll find more weapons as time goes on.
George W. Bush, President
Press Briefing
5/30/2003




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902060 - 09/10/03 01:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

My point is the jury is still out on his claims, while Moore has been proven a liar.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902075 - 09/10/03 02:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps you could point out some specific quotes from Moore that prove him to be a liar?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902101 - 09/10/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Just go to the first page in this thread and follow the link.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902103 - 09/10/03 02:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Look at the websites. I have no desire to rehash what has already been proven.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1902108 - 09/10/03 02:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I did, but I'd like someone to quote something specific that proves him to be a liar. Most of what I read there appears to be based on what the author thinks MM is trying to lead the viewer into thinking. I'm not denying that MM seemss to use deceptive techniques, but there is a difference between deception and outright lying, as evidenced by many of Bush's speeches.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902120 - 09/10/03 02:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Deception and lying are the same things. Throughing Bush in the argument does not change the fact that Moore is full of crap.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902213 - 09/10/03 02:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The point is, really, that this obese filthy blob won an Oscar for a "documentary". Maybe the Blair Witch Project should win one too, that seemed real to me! both of them! honest!


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902297 - 09/10/03 03:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think that they are quite the same thing. A lie is when you make a statement that you know to be false (which is why many people here don't think Bush lied about the war). To deceive is to communicate in a misleading manner to draw a false conclusion, or give a false impression.

For example, if I'm shilling weight-loss pills and I say "These pills will make you lose 10 pounds in one day" when I know they don't work, then that would be a lie. If I say, "I use these amazing pills, and check out how fabulous I look" then I'm not lying, I am using deception to convey the idea that the pills have made me lose weight. Advertisers do this all the time.

I've seen arguements on this forum where people have accused Bush of lying, and others have refuted that because of his use of language, or because there was no proof that he knew his information was false.

I don't see how it's any different with Moore. I haven't seen anything that proves he lied, just that he used deception in order to mislead. It even states at the bottom of the page:

Quote:

The point is not that Bowling is unfair, or lacking in objectivity. The point is far more fundamental: Bowling for Columbine is dishonest. It is fraudulent. To trash Heston, it even uses the audio/video editor to assemble a Heston speech that Heston did not give, and sequences images and carefully highlighted text to spin the viewer's mind to a wrong conclusion. If there is art in this movie, it is a dishonest art. Moore does not inform his readers: he plays them like a violin.




It doesn't say that he's a liar, which is what many people here are saying. So I was asking if anyone could point me to a quote or instance where Moore has actually lied. This is also why I drew the comparison to Bush, because it can be easily argued (by way of his many speeches) that he also uses deceptive techniques in order to mislead the American public.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902306 - 09/10/03 03:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Did you miss this?

"Moore's fabrication here cannot be described by any polite term. It is a lie, a fraud, and a few other things. Carrying it out required a LOT of editing to mislead the viewer, as I will show below. I transcribed Heston's speech as Moore has it, and compared it to a news agency's transcript, color coding the passages. CLICK HERE for the comparison, with links to the original transcript."

If you don't see Moore having deliberately lied, then I'm stunned.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902307 - 09/10/03 03:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Two things.

Dishonesty is the same as lying. If you take someones words and change them intentionally, Moore, that is lying. If you are not telling the truth, you are lying. You can sugar coat it however you like.

We have no proof that Bush misled the public or lied to them.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902372 - 09/10/03 04:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"The point is not that Bowling is biased. No, the point is that Bowling is deliberately, seriously, and consistently deceptive."

I still don't see where Moore lied. Sure, editing those speeches is deceptive, but how is it lying? If you think that editing speeches is lying, then why aren't you protesting just about every major news channel in the world? They all do it. I didn't see Moore claiming those speeches as 'truth'.

You may not think that Bush misled the public, but there are plently of people who do.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902382 - 09/10/03 04:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There are also plenty of people that think Israel planned 9-11. Just because people believe it does not mean it is true. If you want to claim that intentionally deceiving people is not lying that is fine.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902405 - 09/10/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't claim it was true, I said that there are plenty of people who would disagree with your assertion.

You can see from my example above why I don't think that deception is the same as lying. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/10/03 04:16 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902418 - 09/10/03 04:18 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yep. I agree to disagree on that one.

Here is the definition of the word lie BTW.

lie2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l)
n.
A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.


Edited by shakta (09/10/03 04:22 PM)


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1903307 - 09/11/03 12:03 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Amen, Edame. The link provided says in essence that MM's tactics are manipulative and present fiction as fact.

What the hell is new about that still floors me. Our media and government do it every day. Yet the right wing can bash the hell out of a movie maker.. but so what if the powers that be decide to do it. It's amazing. People will hold a film maker's feet more to the fire then their own govt.

Wow.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1904442 - 09/11/03 08:53 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I must agree with Edame at this point. There is a difference between deception and lying - advertisiments don't lie, but they certainly lead people to false assertions. And that's what it seems Moore has done, it is manipulative and it's still a very undesirable trait of someone who claims to be a political activist trying to expose corruption but can you give us an instance where he flat out lies about something? You seem very convinced about how much of a liar Moore is so if you are so sure you must at least have some example, right?

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1904795 - 09/11/03 11:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone who wants to convince others of their viewpoint will speak with a certain bias. I realise that Micheal Moore may be deceitful about some issues. For example, I happen to live in Canada, but I lock my door at night. Generally, however, Canadians are probably more leniant about locking their doors than Americans.

Anyone with any strong opinions (that differ from Micheal Moore's or not) will speak with the same level of bias. I have to say that I generally agree with Micheal Moore. The gun thing in the US is outragious. Like Homer Simpson said about beer, guns are both the problem and solution to all of life's problems.


--------------------
"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: clam_dude]
    #1904811 - 09/11/03 11:55 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There is a huge difference between bias and outright untruthfullness.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: clam_dude]
    #1904881 - 09/11/03 12:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry but when pieces of multiple speeches are pasted together to slant a story to your liking, you've gone beyond bias and into the realm of lying.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1904899 - 09/11/03 12:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i am really disturbed that you even have to say this. quite scary, isn't it?


--------------------

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1904933 - 09/11/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Scary isn't the word I would have chose.

I was thinking more along the lines of fucking pathetic.

Were it a conservative guilty of the same thing, I suspect the howls would wake the dead.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1905607 - 09/11/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Which parts exactly of which speaches did Michael Moore paste together to suit his liking? The Charlton Heston interview was shown in full, and Heston was the one who walked out on the interview. Besides, Michael Moore was not trying to imply that the NRA stands for anything other than what Charlton Heston would say that it stands for.

Please tell me, which parts of which speaches could Michael Moore have left in that would show that he is wrong?


--------------------
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: clam_dude]
    #1905624 - 09/11/03 03:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Read the link in the first post of this thread.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1905907 - 09/11/03 04:17 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I see how Moore has edited parts of the movie, and of Heston's speaches. I fail, however, to see that Moore has put a new spin on the overall set of morals and values that the NRA stands for. For example, the cartoon that compares the NRA to the KKK is historically flawed. The NRA is not a bluntly racist group like the KKK. However, in Moore's interview with Heston at the end of the film, Heston states that the number of deaths in the US is related to the ethnic diversity.

I personally agree with Moore that we need more gun control and i think that Heston is a sleezball. Too bad that Moore felt he had to be decietful to get his point across. He did not have to.


--------------------
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: clam_dude]
    #1905923 - 09/11/03 04:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Heston is such a 'sleezball', he marched side by side with the civil rights protestors during the movement. I wonder what Moore was doing then. Probably sucking on his mama's tit.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1906111 - 09/11/03 04:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Just because Heston did a good thing doesn't mean he's not a sleezball. He just wants to be seen diong good things for good publicity. It's kind of like business. They always use cute little kids in commercials. Many of these companies are exploiting kids on the other side of the globe)


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906150 - 09/11/03 04:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, OK. The fact that he marched with MLK before it was popular was for publicity. I am sure that helped him a lot with the '60s white audience going to the movies. :rolleyes:


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906151 - 09/11/03 04:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
The NRA is not a bluntly racist group like the KKK.



Are you implying that the NRA is secretly racist? If so, this is an incredibly ignorant assumption with absolutely no basis in fact.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1906176 - 09/11/03 05:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Yeah, OK. The fact that he marched with MLK before it was popular was for publicity. I am sure that helped him a lot with the '60s white audience going to the movies. :rolleyes: 


:lol: Very well said.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906182 - 09/11/03 05:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

clam_dude said:
Just because Heston did a good thing doesn't mean he's not a sleezball. He just wants to be seen diong good things for good publicity. It's kind of like business. They always use cute little kids in commercials. Many of these companies are exploiting kids on the other side of the globe)



Just like leftists in the U.S. exploit fear and disgust of racism. Lacking rational arguments to counter their political opponents, they accuse them of racism.


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Re: Moore sucks! [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906193 - 09/11/03 05:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Hey clam_dude, you don't need to type the nick into the subject line


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Autonomous]
    #1906209 - 09/11/03 05:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That happens every day. The Texas Democrats leaving the state is a current example. Instead of staying here and doing their fucking jobs, they run away, and claim the Repubblicans are racists and that they are trying to take away minorities right's to vote. It is a totally ridiculous statement of course, but that doesn't matter.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1906787 - 09/11/03 08:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

HEH. Hahahahahahahahahaha *ROFLMAO*

It's amazing how some people distort things and have no idea of the actual issues. Congrats if that is all you have gotten out of a pretty pivotal example of bravery in today's govt. Hopefully they will all go back and stick their thumbs up their asses like the rest of today's politicans.

For the people and by the people like you... wow, what a wonderful world.

Like Senator Byrd, I continue to cry for my country.


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: clam_dude]
    #1906823 - 09/11/03 08:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

why is heston a sleazeball?


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: ]
    #1907579 - 09/11/03 11:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I think anyone that would assuse Heston of being underhanded or a "sleazeball" is totally ignorant You might disagree with him, but he is an honest man. Ithink that liberals just don't like honest, straight shooting, white men, and they like to lamblast them as much as they can.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1907697 - 09/12/03 12:32 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Texas Democrats leaving the state is a current example. Instead of staying here and doing their fucking jobs, they run away, and claim the Repubblicans are racists and that they are trying to take away minorities right's to vote. It is a totally ridiculous statement of course, but that doesn't matter.




I've been following the Texas situation since the beginning and that is the most biased interpretation of what is going on that I have ever heard. Don't misrepresent the situation to those who don't know what's going on. At least provide a link to the Dallas Morning News or Austin Times or Houston Chronicle so people can read a fairly unbiased report of whats going on if you're gonna bring shit like that up.

the race card is far from the core of their position and you know it. As a matter of fact, I havent heard that they were saying that from anywhere else but YOU. Why not bring up the 10 year Federal Mandate, shakta? Why not admit to the blatant attempt at unconstitutional gerrymandering and "divide and conquer" district line strategies? Why not own up to the fact that the Republicans are pulling dirty tricks to get more "safe seats"?

Dont get me wrong, I think the yellow dogs are fucking chickenshits but at this point they dont really have any other options besides taking it up the ass from those cowboy thugs.

I would run away from a fight before it got to the point where I had to take something up the ass.


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Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1908108 - 09/12/03 02:42 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Well I live hear. You obviously need to do a bit more homework on the subject my friend. The race card is exactly what they are playing. They are trying to prove it in court as well.

Your assertions about the facts are not surprising. The state house and senate never got a chance to update the district lines. A court did it for them. The Dems have controlled the state government for over a 100 years, and the first time something happens they do not like, they run to New Mexico, and spew bullshit propoganda. There are no dirty tricks going on. The process thus far has been ruled perfectly legal. One interesting point is that each of the 11 cowards owes the state $57,000 a piece for diserting their posts. The fines were levied according to the State Constitution.

As far as educating everyone else here on the subject, that ain't my problem.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1908233 - 09/12/03 03:19 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I live "here" too, my friend, and Doctor J's post was dead on. You are missing the bigger picture, my "friend". And it is sad, so very sad. But in essence very telling and serves as a great reminder as I work with those that are quite well versed on this issue and very in touch with the dems involved that there are many that still choose to see it not even in black and white or grey, but in some murky shade of red blood clay spewed by Delay and friends.



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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1908840 - 09/12/03 09:16 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

That made no sense at all. What the hell are you talking about?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1908897 - 09/12/03 10:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

lol..


--------------------

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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1909749 - 09/12/03 03:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Clarification:

You choose to focus on something that isnt even paramount to this fight and focus on the issue designed by Delay and his ilk to pull the wool over the eyes of those who were waking up to the injustice. By engaging in the race debate in the old south, it becomes a murky mess. This was not a card played by the Tex Dems first and is not a key issue of theirs. Its a sparring inssue, of course. I moved back to this state, due in large part to this battle. I felt my activism needed to jump back into the belly of the beast. So, from the inside it's just appauling to me that this is what you are choosing to see and I find that telling of the public at large considering the tactics that are being used.

Of all the people Ive talked to, you are, just like DoctorJ said, the first to see things in that manner.

I dont understand why the last post was so difficult to get, but I hope this helped you.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1910693 - 09/12/03 08:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Big words do not an argument make.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1910770 - 09/12/03 09:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Big words? Must I write monosyllabically?

How bizarre.



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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1910780 - 09/12/03 09:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

In this case, maybe.  You're dealing with someone who thinks arabs are "crazy primates" and that blacks should go "back to Africa".  :nut:


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Edame]
    #1912215 - 09/13/03 11:26 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Top ten list of irritating Internet personalities : People that use the phrase "How bizzare". We aren't having a poetry contest, sweety, and we aren't exhuberating ourselves subhominesly into using grammaticals that are incorrectly juxtaposed. :-)


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1912334 - 09/13/03 12:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Heh.

Okey dokey.

I'd probably really be irritating to you if you knew the inflection I use when saying "How bizarre"-  Bisou Bisou Cherie.

And who told you that life in general was anything else then word (poetry) made flesh?  You should read "A Good Cuntboy is Hard to Find" by Doug Rice.. because you could definately play the protagonist.

In either case, we have strayed off the topic and I guess you are going to have to learn how to deal with my incorrect juxtoposition ( I mean, come on... read your post and realize how funny it is that you say that) or stop reading my posts. :smile:  I'm fine either way..







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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1912517 - 09/13/03 01:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I followed one of the links sourced for the criticism of Bowling for Columbine, the bit where Moore highlights a section of an article saying 48hours later and says that he's talking about an N.R.A response. The sourced website says it's actually a Clinton response, but furter down the article it actually says the N.R.A respond to what Clinton said about guns and the murder on the same day, so Moore was actually right!!!
Also the Heston quotes - you'd have to be supremely stupid to think that it was all one speech, it's got gaps BECAUSE it's a series of quotes from Heston, it's obvious it's a different place each time, I would have thought.

Nevermind, then...

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912557 - 09/13/03 02:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Next on the list - the georgetown Hoya interview, the point is not whether or not he responded to the fact of Kayla Rolland's death, but that he was made aware of it, the fact that he avoided that segment of the question merely shows that the N.R.A spin team hadn't had a chance to get an answer to that question yet! Moore is only showing that Heston must have been aware of it, the website completely sidesteps the point.

These things are open to interpretation a bit aren't they?

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912568 - 09/13/03 02:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, I keep finding new things - You know he quotes reviews? One review I couldn't find the quote he used, the second one was a review in 'your socialist home on the internet' so hardly someone impartial looking at the film, but someone who wants to put even more of a spin on it than moore does. And it's an amateur student website! One reviewer makes it sound like someone writing for the New York Times.

And furthermore, when he talks about the guy who killed Kayla being the class thug, and his uncle being a crack dealer, all well and good, Moore doesn't say anything about his uncle. The point was he had to stay there because his mother was forced to work out of town in malls in a local work scheme in order to have any money - he actually rams Moore's point home about how insane this scheme is that
it forced this boy to be at a drug-dealer's house where guns were easily available.

UH

P.S. FACT about the US govt and the Taliban... the Taliban were in Detroit SIX MONTHS before Sept 11 meeting with Oil and govt representatives to secure a pipeline through afghanistan from central asia in return for aid. Source - the Guardian. Oh, so the Americans did, after all, like Moore said, support the Taliban regime behind the scenes.


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912600 - 09/13/03 02:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

My final point is this is Moore's full response to the Lockheed allegations (which the guy only quotes for a few sentences and 'manipulates' to seem different than it actually is):
Well, first of all, the Lockheed PR people would disagree with your use of the term, "missile." They now call their Titan and Atlas missiles on which nuclear warheads were once (and still are but in less numbers) attached, "rockets." That?s because the Lockheed rockets now take satellites into outer space. Some of them are weather satellites, some are telecommunications satellites, and some are top secret Pentagon projects (like the ones that are launched as spy satellites and others which are used to direct the launching of the nuclear missiles should the USA ever decide to use them).
Lockheed Martin is the largest defense contractor in the United States. They gave us the MX missile and are now heavily involved in developing the nutty Star Wars missile defense shield. They have five facilities in and around the Littleton and Denver area and they are the #1 private employer in the school district that contains Columbine High School.

I smell a smear campaign. I also smell that the guy who wrote that website is using the exact same techniques that he accused Moore of.

Also about Heston appearing in Denver - if it was an annual meeting of the N.R.A then couldn't it have been held behind closed doors instead of Heston making a speech to the worlds press about gun ownership?

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912605 - 09/13/03 02:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

two things:

1. the sort of gun control moore espouses is totalitarian bullshit.

2. he's a liar.


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: ]
    #1912617 - 09/13/03 02:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Can you please dispute what I just said rather than just saying 'he's a liar'?
Two of the supposed key sources on that website don't even work so I'm starting to believe that the website is bullshit too.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912650 - 09/13/03 02:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

it'll take me a moment to get together a rebuttal to what you just said, but i can already tell you that even if what you said is true, there are many other instances in the "documentary" of clever deception and outright lies.


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912692 - 09/13/03 02:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I followed one of the links sourced for the criticism of Bowling for Columbine, the bit where Moore highlights a section of an article saying 48hours later and says that he's talking about an N.R.A response. The sourced website says it's actually a Clinton response, but furter down the article it actually says the N.R.A respond to what Clinton said about guns and the murder on the same day, so Moore was actually right!!!

you're going to have to explain that better. specifically, what part of the page are referring to, and which specific allegation of lying do you think is unfounded?

Also the Heston quotes - you'd have to be supremely stupid to think that it was all one speech, it's got gaps BECAUSE it's a series of quotes from Heston, it's obvious it's a different place each time, I would have thought.

if he wasn't trying to mislead, why would moore edit them to make them look continuous?


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912745 - 09/13/03 03:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

about lockheed martin. moore said that the factory was involved in making "weapons of mass destruction". in reality, the factory made rockets for launching satelites. an outright lie.

a smear campaign? what are you talking about?

using the same tactics? i don't see any evidence on the page of lying or deception, but complete scrutiny in the search for the truth.

there are literally dozens of lies in the film and so much cinematic slight-of-hand that moore probably spent hours and hours editting the film to get right. it's probably the most biased, deceptive media creation i've ever seen.


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1912769 - 09/13/03 03:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

of moore's deceptions, there is a spectrum of just how dishonest each one is. you've selected 3 or 4 of the more mild deceptions (which are still, in my opinion, great examples of outright dishonesty) out of dozens for dispute. perhaps you're right and a couple of his deceptions are "open to interpretation", but the fact still remains that there are many, many other instances of total dishonesty which are not. if you believe that this proves that michael moore is indeed being honest, your reasoning is fallacious, and certainly doesn't buy moore any credibility or excuse this film from criticism.

i say again: michael moore is a liar.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: ]
    #1913925 - 09/13/03 10:39 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

hmmmmmmm



Well I for one am glad charleton heston is dead, may he rot in the ground never to show his backwards face on earth again , that slimy cocksucker
hehehe

and as for Mike moore well I like ALOT of what he says, although I havent seen this movie, people that dont like him are raised on a diet of corporate media ,so anyone that says something outside of their little horrible twisted veiw of the world is lying!

as for guns............well I do think its ok to have them , but I cant help but notice , we up here have them and there arent really problems like you in the US have

hell my dad has 9 guns (maybe more I think) all regestered and he doenst feel like the government is going to take his freedom away etc etc , hell we dont have real freedom or democracy to begin with, but he doesnt know that cause hes not very smart , most people that love guns arent , hehehe



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Offlineshakta
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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1913956 - 09/13/03 10:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
Clarification:

You choose to focus on something that isnt even paramount to this fight and focus on the issue designed by Delay and his ilk to pull the wool over the eyes of those who were waking up to the injustice. By engaging in the race debate in the old south, it becomes a murky mess. This was not a card played by the Tex Dems first and is not a key issue of theirs. Its a sparring inssue, of course. I moved back to this state, due in large part to this battle. I felt my activism needed to jump back into the belly of the beast. So, from the inside it's just appauling to me that this is what you are choosing to see and I find that telling of the public at large considering the tactics that are being used.

Of all the people Ive talked to, you are, just like DoctorJ said, the first to see things in that manner.

I dont understand why the last post was so difficult to get, but I hope this helped you.




What is this great injustice? The state has not been redisctricted by it's legislature since the 90s. It needs to be done again, and it needs to be done so it represents our state. The part I find funny is that the additional seats could go either way, and that any map must be approved by the courts to make sure it doesn't violate anyones rights. The Dems left the state abandoning their jobs. They did not like the way it was going so they took their ball and left town. They did make it a racial issue. If I am the first person you have heard say this you have not even listened to both sides. The fact that you came here to protest it, makes that easy to believe.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1913965 - 09/13/03 10:58 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

What did Heston ever do to deserve such hatred from you? Are you just playing along or something, or do you have reasons?


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1914036 - 09/13/03 11:28 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"What did Heston ever do to deserve such hatred from you? "
although my words are strong I dont HATE him , I just think he is stupid and the human race is better off without him


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1914042 - 09/13/03 11:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

You have no reasons?


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: shakta]
    #1914053 - 09/13/03 11:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

the guys a fucking moron , he embodies whats wrong with the world, a stubern old man that cares only for himself , and his guns of course
hehehe


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1914079 - 09/13/03 11:48 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

hehehe. You have no reasons to hate him. That is what I figured.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1914150 - 09/14/03 12:13 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
hmmmmmmm



Well I for one am glad charleton heston is dead, may he rot in the ground never to show his backwards face on earth again , that slimy cocksucker
hehehe





He isn't dead, Einstein.
Quote:



as for guns............well I do think its ok to have them , but I cant help but notice , we up here have them and there arent really problems like you in the US have




then it seems the problem isn't the gun(s) per se, it's the people who are shooting each other with them

[quote[
hell my dad has 9 guns (maybe more I think) all regestered and he doenst feel like the government is going to take his freedom away etc etc , hell we dont have real freedom or democracy to begin with, but he doesnt know that cause hes not very smart , most people that love guns arent , hehehe





Brillant work, Newton.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1915145 - 09/14/03 01:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

:lol:

I guess I find it very informative when liberals get caught with their pants down and their cohorts will do and say ANYFUCKINGTHING in order to either defend them or change the subject.

How fucking pathetic.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: ]
    #1915182 - 09/14/03 01:19 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
:lol:

I guess I find it very informative when liberals get caught with their pants down and their cohorts will do and say ANYFUCKINGTHING in order to either defend them or change the subject.

How fucking pathetic. 



I'm not saying that what Moore did was right but the guy who wrote that site has compiled a great list of so-called 'wrongs' of Bowling for Columbine - when some of the criticisms levelled at Moore about what his intentions were are completely open to interpretation, on others the links didn't work for the sources.  All I'm saying is that you should apply skepticsim to everything.  It seems some of you have embraced the website wholeheartedly to fit your hatred for Moore and give you a reason to justify your belief in the hypocrisy of liberals.  That website has done the same thing that it criticises Moore of - using information to fit its own agenda and interpreting things in a way that suits it.  That is why I'm skeptical.  I still haven't found an incidence where he outright lied about something - can someone give me one?

UH


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1915197 - 09/14/03 01:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

people that dont like him are raised on a diet of corporate media ,so anyone that says something outside of their little horrible twisted veiw of the world is lying!

first, you're making a generalization. i don't read newspapers and i don't watch TV. my news comes from this forum. i don't like moore. your statement is false.

second... the corporate media is anti-gun.

third... did you read the website? "anyone that says something outside of their little horrible twisted veiw of the world is lying". absolutely not. read the website. it's extremely easy to see how intentionally misleading and deceptive bowling for columbine is.

as for guns............well I do think its ok to have them , but I cant help but notice , we up here have them and there arent really problems like you in the US have

which would seem to demonstrate that guns aren't the cause of the problem.

hes not very smart , most people that love guns arent

another faulty generalization. there are many people who like guns and value the freedom of self-defense who are quite smart.

on the other hand, i've yet to meet anyone who can make a solid anti-gun argument without straying into fallacious reasoning.


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1915201 - 09/14/03 01:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

define "lie".


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1915216 - 09/14/03 01:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

And you can't find where he lied?

Ok, we have nothing to talk about then.

Another perfect example of what I am talking about.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: ]
    #1915320 - 09/14/03 02:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I never said anything about you AT ALL


you just assumed that because you are in argue-mode

everything is left and right with you guys
sheesh!

try reading a book called


the unconcious civillization

I am sick of your left because I want good services, NON-corporate rule etc
well I still think rapists , and killers should go to jail etc
so I can be to far left..........maybe I am centered??

see what I mean !


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1915529 - 09/14/03 03:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Uh, I'd like a response from our resident genius that was glad that Heston was dead, when in fact he wasn't. If your knowledge of heston is so limited you can't even determine wether the subject of your hatred is alive or dead, perhaps you need to rethink it some.

Also, how could you be AGAINST heston? Do you dislike the constitution? If so, please leave. It's funny how you are against mainstream ideas and the "Corporate media", yet you don't see a need for firearms. Well, i'll tell you this, if we keep getting crooked politicians in office it just might come down to a point wer ethe ballot box isn't working, and we have to use "other means" of persuasion to get the evil people out of office. Peope that don't care about Americans rights, and don't hesitate to use guns against them. People like bill clinton... Abe LIncoln called this our "REvolutionary right", and I fully agree with him. WhileI 'm not supporting an armed overthrowing of the government, you can imagine how reserving that right is an ideal thing, rather than a bad thing. People like you remind me of sheep being led to the slaughter.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1915805 - 09/14/03 05:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"the subject of your hatred is alive or dead, perhaps you need to rethink it some. "

I have seen him say STUPID shit before !!!!!!!!!fuck !!!!!god I didnt know I was at the heston fan club


anyway moving on to one of my actual HERO's abe lincon

IF YOU LOVE him then YOU TO , would get some of what I am saying

"Do you dislike the constitution? If so, please leave."

like 4 out 5 of the ACTS THAT CAUSE THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!
HAVE BEEN REPEATED!!!!!!!!!!through free trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really want to see what you have to say about that , and maybe you could enlighten me about how Abe favoured corporations and banks and thought we should let them runs things

cause he said , I have 2 great enemys the southern army in front of me
and the bankers in the rear , of the 2 the latter is my greatest foe"

"It's funny how you are against mainstream ideas and the "Corporate media", yet you don't see a need for firearms. Well, i'll tell you this, if we keep getting crooked politicians in office it just might come down to a point wer ethe ballot box isn't working, and we have to use "other means" of persuasion to get the evil people out of office."

when did I say that I thought you couldnt have guns?????????
I even said that my DAD has 9!!!!!, I dont hate him!

and when I said most people with a BUNCH of guns are not that smart, well have you ever lived in a small hicj town, its true , IME!!!

people that collect anything , to excess seem foolish to me


"People like you remind me of sheep being led to the slaughter"
no way, I am kicking and screaming the whole way, wanna shoot the guy holdong me if you are such a hero??

"Do you dislike the constitution? If so, please leave."
I love it and so does abe, it seems your ashcroft doesnt however, and I would love to see a bullet enter his brain, and I mean watch it enter mmmmmmmm hat a sweet image!

4 out of 5 of the "intolerable acts" have been repeated,

what are we to do about this, you have the guns and history has repeatd itself??????





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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1916421 - 09/14/03 09:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I have absolutly no idea what you are trying to say. Try to organize your thoughts, spell them correctly (we can't all be 100% correct all the time, so I'm not flaming ya for it), and use grammatical practises that are accepted by the whole of the English speaking populace. Thanks.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1916460 - 09/14/03 09:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psilocybeingzz said:
"the subject of your hatred is alive or dead, perhaps you need to rethink it some. "

I have seen him say STUPID shit before !!!!!!!!!fuck !!!!!god I didnt know I was at the heston fan club





My point with that statement is that you were so ignorant of Charleton Heston, that you didn't realize he was alive.

Quote:


anyway moving on to one of my actual HERO's abe lincon

IF YOU LOVE him then YOU TO , would get some of what I am saying




Abe Lincoln was very pro-Gun. He specifically stated that our right to own arms was part of our "Revolutionary right", so if a tyrannical leader takes over, we can revolt. Also, your "hero"s name is speled "Lincoln". I'm assume that you you mean.

Quote:


like 4 out 5 of the ACTS THAT CAUSE THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!
HAVE BEEN REPEATED!!!!!!!!!!through free trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Uh, what?
Quote:


I really want to see what you have to say about that , and maybe you could enlighten me about how Abe favoured corporations and banks and thought we should let them runs things

cause he said , I have 2 great enemys the southern army in front of me and the bankers in the rear , of the 2 the latter is my greatest foe"




I'm sure this won't make me any friends, so let me clarify, I am only showing Abe's REAL quote, not my personal feelings. But, his statement was " . . .and the INTERNATIONAL JEW bankers ... " in the rear. Do you think that is what you want to stick with?
[qoute]
when did I say that I thought you couldnt have guns?????????
I even said that my DAD has 9!!!!!, I dont hate him!

and when I said most people with a BUNCH of guns are not that smart, well have you ever lived in a small hicj town, its true , IME!!!

people that collect anything , to excess seem foolish to me




So, because Heston collects guns to excess, you are glad he's dead? I seem to think that other people asked for why you "Hated HEston", and you couldn't reply. Also, excess is subjective. I own a large number of firearms, yet I hunt with them and enjoy them. Perhaps I think owning more than one white t-shirt is excessive, or more than one pair of shoes?
Quote:



"People like you remind me of sheep being led to the slaughter"
no way, I am kicking and screaming the whole way, wanna shoot the guy holdong me if you are such a hero??




The Jews in Germany didn't have guns, and they kicked and screamed some, but none of the kicking and/or screaming did any good. Firearms is what helped some jews evade the gas chambers
Quote:


"Do you dislike the constitution? If so, please leave."
I love it and so does abe, it seems your ashcroft doesnt however, and I would love to see a bullet enter his brain, and I mean watch it enter mmmmmmmm hat a sweet image!





"your"? I remember applauding Heston, not Ashcroft. can you have an argument without bringing your ignorant, media-implatend stereotypes into play?
Quote:


4 out of 5 of the "intolerable acts" have been repeated,
what are we to do about this, you have the guns and history has repeatd itself??????





Again, no idea what you are babbling about

Depending on your response to this, I will soon cease to speak with you. You are a complete utter moron, are you SURE you are of age to use the shroomery?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1916515 - 09/14/03 10:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I am 25 first off all , and like I have said before you mock because you are wrong

what about this do you not understand

"like 4 out 5 of the ACTS THAT CAUSE THE REVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!
HAVE BEEN REPEATED!!!!!!!!!!through free trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

put everything else aside , for a moment, and tell me what you cant understand about this, you CLAIM you love abe lincon
so...........?


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1916558 - 09/14/03 10:15 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

let's get (somewhat) back on topic.

what's your beef with charlton heston?


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: ]
    #1916603 - 09/14/03 10:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

My only real beef with Charlton Heston is that he is quoted as saying, "Damn Dirty Apes!"


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Enlil]
    #1916632 - 09/14/03 10:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

L I N C O L N - Jesus fucking Christ, I try not to be a prick about spelling because I'm not so good myself, but TWICE you misspelled your "heros" name, a "hero" that was also one of the more famous US presidents. L I N C O L N for future reference.


Perhaps if you'd list the five things that have been done, that'd save me some time, and give me something to reply to. If I'd have posted "Bowling... has some mistruths in it, what do you think abou them" with no link showing what they were, it'd be rather weak. Learn to debate


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Enlil]
    #1916645 - 09/14/03 11:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
My only real beef with Charlton Heston is that he is quoted as saying, "Damn Dirty Apes!" 



Ya.  That damn bigot was prejudiced towards apes! :mad: Of course, he was enslaved by them, so I can understand why.  He also killed a bunch of Egyptians. :smirk:


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916670 - 09/14/03 11:09 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Is it possible for you to actually answer why you dislike Heston, using, perhaps, some historical occurance that involved him acting in a way you deem less-than-moral, or saying something you dislike? I realize that blind hatred can be lots of fun but it's just kinda neat to have reasons for things.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1916676 - 09/14/03 11:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I don't hate Heston. I actually kinda like the guy. I was being sarcastic.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: lysergic]
    #1916685 - 09/14/03 11:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I don't have anything against Heston either. When I saw BFC, I wanted to punch Moore in the face for ambushing the poor guy.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Enlil]
    #1916710 - 09/14/03 11:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Same here. I agree with some of the points Moore was making, but he was being really unfair to Heston.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916839 - 09/15/03 12:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Why does this thread say regarding luvdemshrooms?


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: sirreal]
    #1916843 - 09/15/03 12:18 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Some guy changed the title a while back and everyone's too lazy to fix it.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Enlil]
    #1917136 - 09/15/03 02:02 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"I don't have anything against Heston either. When I saw BFC, I wanted to punch Moore in the face for ambushing the poor guy."

oh fuck that


what did he do walk in front of him and talk


sheeesh


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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1917199 - 09/15/03 02:22 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

There.  Just had to change the title of the 'Re:' part of the thread. :smile:

Oh, and while we're on rhetoric...

Heston = Fucktard.

The End.
By Gern Blanston
Copyright 2003
All Rights Reserved.


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: sirreal]
    #1917406 - 09/15/03 05:27 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Why does this thread say regarding luvdemshrooms?



Actually it says.... luvdemushrooms, not luvdemshrooms.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1917408 - 09/15/03 05:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I did that once already. As soon as someone came along and responded to a poster that had the re:luvdemushrooms, it went back. See the above post for an example.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1917480 - 09/15/03 07:27 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

so what's your problem with heston?

what did he do walk in front of him and talk

yes, and when he was finished with him, he used some camera trickery to make it look like heston stormed out of the interview, ignoring moore, which didn't happen.

piece of shit that moore is.


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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1917482 - 09/15/03 07:28 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Heston = Fucktard.

why?


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1917633 - 09/15/03 10:09 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

No one's posted an outright lie by Moore yet. If you give me one, then I'll be a lot more prepared to believe you. If it's just what COULD be interpreted then I'm sorry but everyone interprets things differently - it's totally subjective.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1917665 - 09/15/03 10:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

LMAO, I can't believe this is still going on....
Some people are far worse off than I initially thought...


--------------------
The punishment which the wise suffer, who refuse to take part in government, is to live under the government of worse men.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1917934 - 09/15/03 01:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i'm still waiting on a definition of the word "lie" from you.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1918175 - 09/15/03 03:00 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I already posted the definition that showed deceiving someone is a lie. He was deceitful, so he lied. Simple, eh?


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1918394 - 09/15/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

unlikelyhero said:
No one's posted an outright lie by Moore yet. If you give me one, then I'll be a lot more prepared to believe you. If it's just what COULD be interpreted then I'm sorry but everyone interprets things differently - it's totally subjective.

UH





Everyone believes Moore lies! - unlikelyhero

What I just did was took your own words, cut and pasted them ,much like moore does, and got a different meaning. Now, you DID say "everyone believes moore lies", just not in that order. Am I telling the truth attributing that quote to you? If not, is it a lie that I am saying that?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1918510 - 09/15/03 04:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

unlikelyhero said:
No one's posted an outright lie by Moore yet. If you give me one, then I'll be a lot more prepared to believe you. If it's just what COULD be interpreted then I'm sorry but everyone interprets things differently - it's totally subjective.

UH




Houston, we have a problem.


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OfflineBhairabas
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1918548 - 09/15/03 05:02 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If anyone for one second thought that this movie was real your an idiot.. It baffles me how anyone could take it seriously..


Edited by Bhairabas (09/15/03 05:04 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: lysergic]
    #1918607 - 09/15/03 05:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
Quote:

unlikelyhero said:
No one's posted an outright lie by Moore yet. If you give me one, then I'll be a lot more prepared to believe you. If it's just what COULD be interpreted then I'm sorry but everyone interprets things differently - it's totally subjective.

UH





Everyone believes Moore lies! - unlikelyhero

What I just did was took your own words, cut and pasted them ,much like moore does, and got a different meaning. Now, you DID say "everyone believes moore lies", just not in that order. Am I telling the truth attributing that quote to you? If not, is it a lie that I am saying that?




haha, good one.

edit; oops, im an idiot.


Edited by immaculate (09/15/03 05:31 PM)


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: lysergic]
    #1918620 - 09/15/03 05:32 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
Quote:

unlikelyhero said:
No one's posted an outright lie by Moore yet. If you give me one, then I'll be a lot more prepared to believe you. If it's just what COULD be interpreted then I'm sorry but everyone interprets things differently - it's totally subjective.

UH





Everyone believes Moore lies! - unlikelyhero

What I just did was took your own words, cut and pasted them ,much like moore does, and got a different meaning. Now, you DID say "everyone believes moore lies", just not in that order. Am I telling the truth attributing that quote to you? If not, is it a lie that I am saying that?




Thing is, you're doing it incorrectly, and outside of a messageboard it could get you sued for libel. As far as I understand it when you quote someone in writing, and are splicing bits together, you have to add "..." in between the bit's you've missed. So your mis-quote might go something like "Everyone believes...Moore lies!". That way it is known that the quote has been abbreviated from it's original form. Moore did the same thing with the speeches, he intersected them with other footage so it can be seen that he's not making those statements in the same structure, this is done on the news also (or at the very least with a 'blurring' effect). I think the author of the original article gives the viewer too little credit.

Edit: Notice how Heston hasn't tried to sue Moore for slander?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/15/03 05:34 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918656 - 09/15/03 05:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Keep on defending him Edame. We all know it was dishonest and wrong.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: shakta]
    #1918684 - 09/15/03 05:55 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I'm not defending him, I think he was misleading (and now not very credible), but I don't think he lied. I think that lysergic's logic was flawed in this instance, and was adding my opinion.

While we're at it, why do you think it is that Heston hasn't sued Moore for slander? If he blantantly lied about what Heston said, then Heston would have every right to sue surely?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/15/03 05:57 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918710 - 09/15/03 06:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Edame asks:

While we're at it, why do you think it is that Heston hasn't sued Moore for slander? If he blantantly lied about what Heston said, then Heston would have every right to sue surely?

Despite the popular perception in many parts of the world, not every American is litigious. Heston is old, sick, and frail. It is possible he simply doesn't want to spend the last years of his life tied up in a lawsuit.

There is no doubt Heston has the RIGHT to sue. Many lawyers would drool at the thought of taking this case -- it's as close to being a cast-iron win as you can get. But if he doesn't have the INCLINATION to sue, the suit won't be brought.

pinky


--------------------


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918721 - 09/15/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I already showed you that intentionally deceiving someone is the same as lying. Read the definition again.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: shakta]
    #1918726 - 09/15/03 06:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

No, you showed a definition, not necessarily the definition. There are volumes of text on medical ethics and philosophy that would disagree with your definition.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918734 - 09/15/03 06:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

While we're at it, why do you think it is that Heston hasn't sued Moore for slander?



I don't know him personally, but perhaps, despite what the papers would have you believe, not everyone is sue happy here.


Edit: Oops.... I see that one of the wisest minds here beat me to it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (09/15/03 06:15 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918738 - 09/15/03 06:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Are you fucking serious? I guess the dictionary is wrong and you are right.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918785 - 09/15/03 06:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
No, you showed a definition, not necessarily the definition. There are volumes of text on medical ethics and philosophy that would disagree with your definition.




This isn't directed only at you, take from it what applies (if anything)...

This is a good example of one of the things that have gone so horribly wrong with the world today. For some reason people seem to be afraid to say anything is wrong. Well bullshit, what Moore did was wrong, he's a lying sleazebag.

So many are willing to excuse others for this type of crap by saying things like... well his point is still valid, he was abused as a child, he didn't know it was wrong, I didn't want to get involved....

Bullshit, wrong is still wrong and despite the whining of sniveling little shits, it will remain wrong.

Until people are willing to say "that's wrong", things will continue on the same crappy path we're on now.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918803 - 09/15/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Right on. Ann Coulter is wrong.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918828 - 09/15/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

what do you think a good definition of the word "lie" is?

here, i'll give you mine...

to lie: to knowingly saying something that is untrue, presenting it as a true statement.

i could try to check, but i have a feeling that this one's consistant with every single english dictionary in existance. i'd even wager that it's even far more narrow than most.

what's yours?

completely unrelated question: do you think that george w. bush lied about iraq's weapons of mass destruction?


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918833 - 09/15/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

'Wrong' is a subjective term. Executing children is 'wrong' in my book, but evidently many Americans think it's ok. Doing drugs is 'wrong' to many people, but not to all of us here. Just because you see something as 'wrong', does not make it so, it's merely your own cultural bias showing through. Why is it that as a race, we're so hell-bent on proclaiming other people's behaviour as 'wrong'?

I think the reason that people like Shakta and yourself tend to disagree with a lot of my opinions, is because I see just about everything in subjective terms, that's my current reality tunnel. For me to claim that something 'is' right, or 'is' wrong, I would need some kind of all-knowing god-like view of 'reality' where everything is concrete and defined as absolute truth.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918836 - 09/15/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

we're not talking about "right" and "wrong".

we're talking about what it means to "lie".

what do you think it means?


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918850 - 09/15/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
'Wrong' is a subjective term. Executing children is 'wrong' in my book, but evidently many Americans think it's ok. Doing drugs is 'wrong' to many people, but not to all of us here. Just because you see something as 'wrong', does not make it so, it's merely your own cultural bias showing through. Why is it that as a race, we're so hell-bent on proclaiming other people's behaviour as 'wrong'?

I think the reason that people like Shakta and yourself tend to disagree with a lot of my opinions, is because I see just about everything in subjective terms, that's my current reality tunnel. For me to claim that something 'is' right, or 'is' wrong, I would need some kind of all-knowing god-like view of 'reality' where everything is concrete and defined as absolute truth.




I think that executing children is right and god-like! Thats the concrete absolute truth! - Edame

I just pulled a "moore" on you, I used your exact words, I just took some of them and rearranged them. Would you say that my quote is a lie? That perhaps your post wasn't encouraging the execution of children? If so, how did moore do differently, and why isn't that lying? you child killer!


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918854 - 09/15/03 06:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Why is it that as a race, we're so hell-bent on proclaiming other people's behaviour as 'wrong'?



Because all too frequently, it is.


Quote:

For me to claim that something 'is' right, or 'is' wrong, I would need some kind of all-knowing god-like view of 'reality' where everything is concrete and defined as absolute truth.



Really? Pretty sad.

What can be right about rape?
Waht can be right about child abuse?
What can be right about gas chambers?
What can be right about killing to steal?
What can be right about genocide?

There is right, there is wrong. Subjective? Not in too many cases.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918862 - 09/15/03 06:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Psilocybingzzz - Can you finally answer my question as to why you dislike Charleton Heston?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918863 - 09/15/03 06:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you're only giving him a chance to keep running with that red herring.

edame...

what is a lie?


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1918916 - 09/15/03 07:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
what do you think a good definition of the word "lie" is?

here, i'll give you mine...

to lie: to knowingly saying something that is untrue, presenting it as a true statement.

i could try to check, but i have a feeling that this one's consistant with every single english dictionary in existance. i'd even wager that it's even far more narrow than most.

what's yours?

completely unrelated question: do you think that george w. bush lied about iraq's weapons of mass destruction?




I already gave my opinion on lies and deception a few pages back.

So going by your defintion, where did MM present his 'statement' as truth? How exactly was this edited speech stated as truth? It was as technically correct as any speech coverered by a news organisation, he didn't compile this speech as one long uncut take, he interspersed it with other footage. If you watch it with an open mind it's fairly obvious that it's not all from the same speech. To me it's subjective.

I don't think it can be proven that Bush lied, because we would have to be sure he knew his claims weren't true in the first place. I certainly think he used deception in order to manipulate public opinion though.

If you're interested, do a google search on "difference between lie deception", I found a number of articles on medical ethics and philosophy that show it not to be as clear cut as some would like. It can be subjective depending on any number of variables.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1918920 - 09/15/03 07:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
we're not talking about "right" and "wrong".

we're talking about what it means to "lie".

what do you think it means?




Check again, that post wasn't in response to you.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: lysergic]
    #1918933 - 09/15/03 07:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think that executing children is right and god-like! Thats the concrete absolute truth! - Edame

I just pulled a "moore" on you, I used your exact words, I just took some of them and rearranged them. Would you say that my quote is a lie? That perhaps your post wasn't encouraging the execution of children? If so, how did moore do differently, and why isn't that lying? you child killer!




You're not paying attention, I already responded to your libellous method of 'quoting'. You would have to insert the correct gaps ("...") to be taken seriously. MM inserted these 'gaps' in the speech also, which you appear to be conveniently overlooking.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918962 - 09/15/03 07:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

for something to be a lie, the liar has to know that what they're saying is untrue at the time they say it.

there's clearly a hell of alot of untruths in the film, but i'm not michael moore and i don't know what he knew when he made the false statements. i suppose i can't say for certain that he knowingly lied. perhaps he's just an complete moron who doesn't bother to check the facts while creating a documentary about something he cares about. or perhaps he's a liar. believe what you wish.

he was knowingly and abominally deceptive however, even if not a "liar" by the strictest definition.

fortunately, his movie is preaching to the gun-control choir, and i think the political impact of this peice of propaganda will be minimal.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918968 - 09/15/03 07:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What can be right about rape?
Waht can be right about child abuse?
What can be right about gas chambers?
What can be right about killing to steal?
What can be right about genocide?

There is right, there is wrong. Subjective? Not in too many cases.




Most of those I happen to find morally questionable myself, but you have gas chambers in the US do you not? Many people in the world think of the death penalty as barbaric (myself included), and many think that murder as revenge is justified, who is 'right'?
Not everything is as cut and dry as it seems. I have a different worldview from yours, does that make mine 'wrong' and yours 'right'? Who gets to judge?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1919014 - 09/15/03 07:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Who gets to judge?



Me.


All kidding aside, I find your outlook on right and wrong to be reprehensible.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1919017 - 09/15/03 07:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
for something to be a lie, the liar has to know that what they're saying is untrue at the time they say it.

there's clearly a hell of alot of untruths in the film, but i'm not michael moore and i don't know what he knew when he made the false statements. i suppose i can't say for certain that he knowingly lied. perhaps he's just an complete moron who doesn't bother to check the facts while creating a documentary about something he cares about. or perhaps he's a liar. believe what you wish.




I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. :smile:  I posted mainly because I was taken back by the level of vitriol and invectives displayed towards Moore.  I posted a story a few pages back about FOX news making a court admission that it was ok for them to lie in the news. Only 2 or 3 people responded at all, despite the fact that FOX broadcasts to millions of people every day.
I felt things were being taken a bit out of perspective.


Quote:

fortunately, his movie is preaching to the gun-control choir, and i think the political impact of this peice of propaganda will be minimal. 




I don't know about that, we have 10 pages of discussion right here, and hundreds more all over the internet.  Regardles of how valid some of his arguements were, the film has certainly acheived at least one of it's aims, by provoking so much discussion on the subject of the US and guns

Edit: grammar. 


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/15/03 07:50 PM)


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1919051 - 09/15/03 07:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


All kidding aside, I find your outlook on right and wrong to be reprehensible. 




One of the (many) good things about my worldview is that I don't have to care what you think, as long as you don't try and force your philosophy on me.

:grin:


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1919057 - 09/15/03 07:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Regardles of how valid some of his arguements were, the film has certainly acheived at least one of it's aims, by invoking so much discussion on the subject of the US and guns

the discussion here being how deceptive and dishonest the film is. it's usually a bad sign for your argument if you can't make it without sinking to such tactics.

i typically try my best to respect others' opinions and acknowledge that there is subjectivity in many things... but i have not once met a single person who can justify their repressive position on gun-freedom.

if there is but one argument that a person can make and be quickly thrown into my idiot bin, it's a harcore gun control position.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1919097 - 09/15/03 08:04 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Like I've mentioned before, it can be subjective. I live in a country where handguns guns are pretty much abhorred across the board, and gun control is strictly enforced. To each of us, the other's society may seem 'backwards', as we're both likely to have had our opinions affirmed by society for most of our lives. I may find the US's apparent obsession with guns a tad disturbing, but then I haven't grown up with a 2nd amendment either.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1919111 - 09/15/03 08:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Edame writes:

I posted mainly because I was taken back by the level of vitriol and invectives displayed towards Moore.

And I was taken aback by the unmitigated gall of the man who allowed his movie to be not only nominated for an Oscar in the documentary category, but to actually accept the Oscar under such blatantly false pretenses.

By his own public admission, even Moore doesn't categorize (any longer, now that he has been caught) the movie as a documentary, but as "entertainment". Yet he feels no shame at not only lying (and yes, what he does definitely fits the definition of lying), he feels no shame in stealing. He stole the Oscar from those who deserved it.

I can understand why, if you truly believe there is no objective right or wrong, you would choose to quibble over the definition of "lie", just as you quibble over theft of intellectual property by dismissing it as a mere "copyright infringement".

But why someone who professes not to characterize anything as "right" or "wrong" would feel surprise at displays of "vitriol" or "vindictiveness" is beyond me. After all, if there is no objective "right" or "wrong", how can a phrase be objectively described as "vitriolic" or "vindictive"? It's all subjective, right? One man's "vitriol" is another man's "praise".

pinky


--------------------


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Phred]
    #1919153 - 09/15/03 08:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Bravo!


BRAVO!!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Phred]
    #1919200 - 09/15/03 08:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I actually agree with you there, I've also been puzzled as to why Moore accepted so many awards.

I have to confess that I don't fully understand where you're going with this. I'm not saying that there's no objective right or wrong, just that they mean different things to different people, and I feel that it's futile to try and say that things just 'are' a particular way just because one group of people seem to think so. Like any ignorant person I'm asking a lot of questions so that I can continue to evolve my particular model of reality.

With hindsight, I should correct what I wrote to:
I posted mainly because I was taken back by the level of vitriol and invectives that seemed to be displayed towards Moore.
I do try and write in E-Prime when I can, but it's too easy to slip back into old habits. As you can (now) see from my correction, I was responding to what seemed like vitriolic comments to me ('me' being the only 'reality' I'm aware of).

I'm not very good at explaining my thoughts, so perhaps I'm missing something that I can't communicate. I'd hope that at least a few people who have dabbled in psychedelics would have an idea of where I'm coming from.

Edit: Maybe you were going for the terrorist/freedom fighter analogy, but I find it hard to see how the following vitriol could be someone else's praise?
I'd enjoy beating that doughboy fatass beefytits motherfucker around some. Stupid fat bastard. I can't stand slovenly, pissed off, liberal fatasses. What a shitty combination. I wish that he would have been in NYC on 9/11


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (09/15/03 09:11 PM)


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1920865 - 09/16/03 10:03 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Still no one has given an example, I'm beginning to wonder whether you've all just jumped on the anti-Moore bandwagon and haven't even bothered reading that site. If Moore lied, then Heston would have every right to sue Moore and surely it would make a good example of Moore and put him to shame... why wouldn't he take him to court if it would mean rubbishing the validity of Bowling for Columbine? Wouldn't he want that? Wouldn't that do alot of good for the credibility of the NRA? Especially when you consider what a big hit Bowling for Columbine was.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1920870 - 09/16/03 10:08 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

we've already gone over that. BFC wasn't even a huge hit anyway. i know but one person who saw it other than me.

fortunately, gun-freedom is making steady advances across the nation. the tide is turning, and this stupid little film doesn't seem to be stemming it.


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1920885 - 09/16/03 10:16 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

BFC was a big hit - http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/business, especially when you consider it was a documentary (let's not get bogged down in semantics). Just because you don't know people who saw it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't huge - you can't always judge things from your own experiences.
You haven't answered my question. I find the belief that it was filled with lies a bit suspect when you consider the sueing history of the NRA -
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/3/27/135423.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/01/instant.gun.checks.02/
http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/2005
http://george.loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Sep/65.html
The last link shows the NRA sueing a school for not letting a boy wear an NRA t-shirt - that is a pretty small matter when you consider the grosses of Bowling for Columbine - especially if Moore was outright lying about much of what he said.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1920902 - 09/16/03 10:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

i think they should sue as well.

but... the fact that they have NOT sued isn't grounds for a case supporting BFC's accuracy.

the facts about the accuracy are pretty clear.

your reasoning (especially in the face of so much conflicting evidense) is a flaw of propositional logic, specifically, denying the antecedent.


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InvisibleZildjian
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1920939 - 09/16/03 11:01 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

generally,

people may dislike moore because he decieves.

people may hate moore because he is a lier

people may hate moore because he is a lier and because they disliked the way he portrayed america as a country full of paranoid lunatics.

people may not care

people may like moore because he is entertaining

people may like moore because he is entertaining and he portrayed america as a country full of paranoid lunatics.


These are all points on a continuim;

I personally enjoyed this movie when I first saw it, probably because I disliked america at that time, and BFC took the piss out of america. Since watching the film, I have come to realize that moore is not so credible, and america is not is as bad as i thought it was.

I think that is why the film was such a success. I don't know if you americans know this, but in the rest of the world (at least in this country anyway) a large proportion of people think america sucks. This is possibly because america has been blamed for the global imperialism which is occuring in our world, which is seen as a bad thing by most.

"Hiphop culture is now more than 25 years old. The term itself derives from two underlying words: 'hip' (trendy) and 'hop' (jump or dance). The hiphop lifestyle emerged in the Bronx, New York out of broader Aferican-american cultural roots." (Arnould et al, 2003)

this, amoungst other things, is one reason why I disliked america. I find hiphop to be disgusting. But of course, I am narrow minded and have since realized that america is responcible for many wonderful things, as well as bad.

I think america has a bad side and a good side, like most countries, and the bulk of people who dislike america are what made this film a success.

If you think moore is a fucking stupid fat wanker that should be beaten, then you are a patriot and should chill-out and think about how your wonderful government would react to your consumption and/or cultivation of illegal drugs.

If you think moore is factual, then you should read this post again.

P.S. sorry for rambling and the spelling mistakes, i enjoy talking about culture, it really gets my juices flowing.


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