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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902101 -

Just go to the first page in this thread and follow the link.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902103 -

Look at the websites. I have no desire to rehash what has already been proven.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1902108 -

I did, but I'd like someone to quote something specific that proves him to be a liar. Most of what I read there appears to be based on what the author thinks MM is trying to lead the viewer into thinking. I'm not denying that MM seemss to use deceptive techniques, but there is a difference between deception and outright lying, as evidenced by many of Bush's speeches.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902120 -

Deception and lying are the same things. Throughing Bush in the argument does not change the fact that Moore is full of crap.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902213 -

The point is, really, that this obese filthy blob won an Oscar for a "documentary". Maybe the Blair Witch Project should win one too, that seemed real to me! both of them! honest!


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902297 -

I don't think that they are quite the same thing. A lie is when you make a statement that you know to be false (which is why many people here don't think Bush lied about the war). To deceive is to communicate in a misleading manner to draw a false conclusion, or give a false impression.

For example, if I'm shilling weight-loss pills and I say "These pills will make you lose 10 pounds in one day" when I know they don't work, then that would be a lie. If I say, "I use these amazing pills, and check out how fabulous I look" then I'm not lying, I am using deception to convey the idea that the pills have made me lose weight. Advertisers do this all the time.

I've seen arguements on this forum where people have accused Bush of lying, and others have refuted that because of his use of language, or because there was no proof that he knew his information was false.

I don't see how it's any different with Moore. I haven't seen anything that proves he lied, just that he used deception in order to mislead. It even states at the bottom of the page:

Quote:

The point is not that Bowling is unfair, or lacking in objectivity. The point is far more fundamental: Bowling for Columbine is dishonest. It is fraudulent. To trash Heston, it even uses the audio/video editor to assemble a Heston speech that Heston did not give, and sequences images and carefully highlighted text to spin the viewer's mind to a wrong conclusion. If there is art in this movie, it is a dishonest art. Moore does not inform his readers: he plays them like a violin.



It doesn't say that he's a liar, which is what many people here are saying. So I was asking if anyone could point me to a quote or instance where Moore has actually lied. This is also why I drew the comparison to Bush, because it can be easily argued (by way of his many speeches) that he also uses deceptive techniques in order to mislead the American public.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902306 -

Did you miss this?

"Moore's fabrication here cannot be described by any polite term. It is a lie, a fraud, and a few other things. Carrying it out required a LOT of editing to mislead the viewer, as I will show below. I transcribed Heston's speech as Moore has it, and compared it to a news agency's transcript, color coding the passages. CLICK HERE for the comparison, with links to the original transcript."

If you don't see Moore having deliberately lied, then I'm stunned.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902307 -

Two things.

Dishonesty is the same as lying. If you take someones words and change them intentionally, Moore, that is lying. If you are not telling the truth, you are lying. You can sugar coat it however you like.

We have no proof that Bush misled the public or lied to them.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902372 -

"The point is not that Bowling is biased. No, the point is that Bowling is deliberately, seriously, and consistently deceptive."

I still don't see where Moore lied. Sure, editing those speeches is deceptive, but how is it lying? If you think that editing speeches is lying, then why aren't you protesting just about every major news channel in the world? They all do it. I didn't see Moore claiming those speeches as 'truth'.

You may not think that Bush misled the public, but there are plently of people who do.


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The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902382 -

There are also plenty of people that think Israel planned 9-11. Just because people believe it does not mean it is true. If you want to claim that intentionally deceiving people is not lying that is fine.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: shakta]
    #1902405 -

I didn't claim it was true, I said that there are plenty of people who would disagree with your assertion.

You can see from my example above why I don't think that deception is the same as lying. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (09/10/03 02:16 PM)

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1902418 -

Yep. I agree to disagree on that one.

Here is the definition of the word lie BTW.

lie2 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l)
n.
A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

Edited by shakta (09/10/03 02:22 PM)

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Edame]
    #1903307 -

Amen, Edame. The link provided says in essence that MM's tactics are manipulative and present fiction as fact.

What the hell is new about that still floors me. Our media and government do it every day. Yet the right wing can bash the hell out of a movie maker.. but so what if the powers that be decide to do it. It's amazing. People will hold a film maker's feet more to the fire then their own govt.

Wow.


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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1904442 -

I must agree with Edame at this point. There is a difference between deception and lying - advertisiments don't lie, but they certainly lead people to false assertions. And that's what it seems Moore has done, it is manipulative and it's still a very undesirable trait of someone who claims to be a political activist trying to expose corruption but can you give us an instance where he flat out lies about something? You seem very convinced about how much of a liar Moore is so if you are so sure you must at least have some example, right?

UH


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They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1904795 -

Anyone who wants to convince others of their viewpoint will speak with a certain bias. I realise that Micheal Moore may be deceitful about some issues. For example, I happen to live in Canada, but I lock my door at night. Generally, however, Canadians are probably more leniant about locking their doors than Americans.

Anyone with any strong opinions (that differ from Micheal Moore's or not) will speak with the same level of bias. I have to say that I generally agree with Micheal Moore. The gun thing in the US is outragious. Like Homer Simpson said about beer, guns are both the problem and solution to all of life's problems.


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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: clam_dude]
    #1904811 -

There is a huge difference between bias and outright untruthfullness.

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: clam_dude]
    #1904881 -

Sorry but when pieces of multiple speeches are pasted together to slant a story to your liking, you've gone beyond bias and into the realm of lying.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1904899 -

i am really disturbed that you even have to say this. quite scary, isn't it?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Bowling For Columbine - Lying with the help of the Media [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1904933 -

Scary isn't the word I would have chose.

I was thinking more along the lines of fucking pathetic.

Were it a conservative guilty of the same thing, I suspect the howls would wake the dead.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: luvdemushrooms [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1905607 -

Which parts exactly of which speaches did Michael Moore paste together to suit his liking? The Charlton Heston interview was shown in full, and Heston was the one who walked out on the interview. Besides, Michael Moore was not trying to imply that the NRA stands for anything other than what Charlton Heston would say that it stands for.

Please tell me, which parts of which speaches could Michael Moore have left in that would show that he is wrong?


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"I would like to thank god for making me an atheist" - Ricky Gervais

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General Interest > Political Discussion
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