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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1919017 -

Quote:
mushmaster said:
for something to be a lie, the liar has to know that what they're saying is untrue at the time they say it.

there's clearly a hell of alot of untruths in the film, but i'm not michael moore and i don't know what he knew when he made the false statements. i suppose i can't say for certain that he knowingly lied. perhaps he's just an complete moron who doesn't bother to check the facts while creating a documentary about something he cares about. or perhaps he's a liar. believe what you wish.



I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. :smile:  I posted mainly because I was taken back by the level of vitriol and invectives displayed towards Moore.  I posted a story a few pages back about FOX news making a court admission that it was ok for them to lie in the news. Only 2 or 3 people responded at all, despite the fact that FOX broadcasts to millions of people every day.
I felt things were being taken a bit out of perspective.


Quote:
fortunately, his movie is preaching to the gun-control choir, and i think the political impact of this peice of propaganda will be minimal. 



I don't know about that, we have 10 pages of discussion right here, and hundreds more all over the internet.  Regardles of how valid some of his arguements were, the film has certainly acheived at least one of it's aims, by provoking so much discussion on the subject of the US and guns

Edit: grammar. 


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (09/15/03 05:50 PM)

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1919051 -

Quote:
All kidding aside, I find your outlook on right and wrong to be reprehensible. 


One of the (many) good things about my worldview is that I don't have to care what you think, as long as you don't try and force your philosophy on me.

:grin:


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1919057 -

Regardles of how valid some of his arguements were, the film has certainly acheived at least one of it's aims, by invoking so much discussion on the subject of the US and guns

the discussion here being how deceptive and dishonest the film is. it's usually a bad sign for your argument if you can't make it without sinking to such tactics.

i typically try my best to respect others' opinions and acknowledge that there is subjectivity in many things... but i have not once met a single person who can justify their repressive position on gun-freedom.

if there is but one argument that a person can make and be quickly thrown into my idiot bin, it's a harcore gun control position.

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1919097 -

Like I've mentioned before, it can be subjective. I live in a country where handguns guns are pretty much abhorred across the board, and gun control is strictly enforced. To each of us, the other's society may seem 'backwards', as we're both likely to have had our opinions affirmed by society for most of our lives. I may find the US's apparent obsession with guns a tad disturbing, but then I haven't grown up with a 2nd amendment either.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1919111 -

Edame writes:

I posted mainly because I was taken back by the level of vitriol and invectives displayed towards Moore.

And I was taken aback by the unmitigated gall of the man who allowed his movie to be not only nominated for an Oscar in the documentary category, but to actually accept the Oscar under such blatantly false pretenses.

By his own public admission, even Moore doesn't categorize (any longer, now that he has been caught) the movie as a documentary, but as "entertainment". Yet he feels no shame at not only lying (and yes, what he does definitely fits the definition of lying), he feels no shame in stealing. He stole the Oscar from those who deserved it.

I can understand why, if you truly believe there is no objective right or wrong, you would choose to quibble over the definition of "lie", just as you quibble over theft of intellectual property by dismissing it as a mere "copyright infringement".

But why someone who professes not to characterize anything as "right" or "wrong" would feel surprise at displays of "vitriol" or "vindictiveness" is beyond me. After all, if there is no objective "right" or "wrong", how can a phrase be objectively described as "vitriolic" or "vindictive"? It's all subjective, right? One man's "vitriol" is another man's "praise".

pinky


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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Phred]
    #1919153 -

Bravo!


BRAVO!!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Phred]
    #1919200 -

I actually agree with you there, I've also been puzzled as to why Moore accepted so many awards.

I have to confess that I don't fully understand where you're going with this. I'm not saying that there's no objective right or wrong, just that they mean different things to different people, and I feel that it's futile to try and say that things just 'are' a particular way just because one group of people seem to think so. Like any ignorant person I'm asking a lot of questions so that I can continue to evolve my particular model of reality.

With hindsight, I should correct what I wrote to:
I posted mainly because I was taken back by the level of vitriol and invectives that seemed to be displayed towards Moore.
I do try and write in E-Prime when I can, but it's too easy to slip back into old habits. As you can (now) see from my correction, I was responding to what seemed like vitriolic comments to me ('me' being the only 'reality' I'm aware of).

I'm not very good at explaining my thoughts, so perhaps I'm missing something that I can't communicate. I'd hope that at least a few people who have dabbled in psychedelics would have an idea of where I'm coming from.

Edit: Maybe you were going for the terrorist/freedom fighter analogy, but I find it hard to see how the following vitriol could be someone else's praise?
I'd enjoy beating that doughboy fatass beefytits motherfucker around some. Stupid fat bastard. I can't stand slovenly, pissed off, liberal fatasses. What a shitty combination. I wish that he would have been in NYC on 9/11


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

Edited by Edame (09/15/03 07:11 PM)

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1920865 -

Still no one has given an example, I'm beginning to wonder whether you've all just jumped on the anti-Moore bandwagon and haven't even bothered reading that site. If Moore lied, then Heston would have every right to sue Moore and surely it would make a good example of Moore and put him to shame... why wouldn't he take him to court if it would mean rubbishing the validity of Bowling for Columbine? Wouldn't he want that? Wouldn't that do alot of good for the credibility of the NRA? Especially when you consider what a big hit Bowling for Columbine was.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1920870 -

we've already gone over that. BFC wasn't even a huge hit anyway. i know but one person who saw it other than me.

fortunately, gun-freedom is making steady advances across the nation. the tide is turning, and this stupid little film doesn't seem to be stemming it.

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1920885 -

BFC was a big hit - http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/business, especially when you consider it was a documentary (let's not get bogged down in semantics). Just because you don't know people who saw it, it doesn't mean that it wasn't huge - you can't always judge things from your own experiences.
You haven't answered my question. I find the belief that it was filled with lies a bit suspect when you consider the sueing history of the NRA -
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/3/27/135423.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/01/instant.gun.checks.02/
http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/2005
http://george.loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Sep/65.html
The last link shows the NRA sueing a school for not letting a boy wear an NRA t-shirt - that is a pretty small matter when you consider the grosses of Bowling for Columbine - especially if Moore was outright lying about much of what he said.

UH


--------------------
They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: unlikelyhero]
    #1920902 -

i think they should sue as well.

but... the fact that they have NOT sued isn't grounds for a case supporting BFC's accuracy.

the facts about the accuracy are pretty clear.

your reasoning (especially in the face of so much conflicting evidense) is a flaw of propositional logic, specifically, denying the antecedent.

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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1920939 -

generally,

people may dislike moore because he decieves.

people may hate moore because he is a lier

people may hate moore because he is a lier and because they disliked the way he portrayed america as a country full of paranoid lunatics.

people may not care

people may like moore because he is entertaining

people may like moore because he is entertaining and he portrayed america as a country full of paranoid lunatics.


These are all points on a continuim;

I personally enjoyed this movie when I first saw it, probably because I disliked america at that time, and BFC took the piss out of america. Since watching the film, I have come to realize that moore is not so credible, and america is not is as bad as i thought it was.

I think that is why the film was such a success. I don't know if you americans know this, but in the rest of the world (at least in this country anyway) a large proportion of people think america sucks. This is possibly because america has been blamed for the global imperialism which is occuring in our world, which is seen as a bad thing by most.

"Hiphop culture is now more than 25 years old. The term itself derives from two underlying words: 'hip' (trendy) and 'hop' (jump or dance). The hiphop lifestyle emerged in the Bronx, New York out of broader Aferican-american cultural roots." (Arnould et al, 2003)

this, amoungst other things, is one reason why I disliked america. I find hiphop to be disgusting. But of course, I am narrow minded and have since realized that america is responcible for many wonderful things, as well as bad.

I think america has a bad side and a good side, like most countries, and the bulk of people who dislike america are what made this film a success.

If you think moore is a fucking stupid fat wanker that should be beaten, then you are a patriot and should chill-out and think about how your wonderful government would react to your consumption and/or cultivation of illegal drugs.

If you think moore is factual, then you should read this post again.

P.S. sorry for rambling and the spelling mistakes, i enjoy talking about culture, it really gets my juices flowing.

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