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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918710 - 09/15/03 06:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Edame asks:

While we're at it, why do you think it is that Heston hasn't sued Moore for slander? If he blantantly lied about what Heston said, then Heston would have every right to sue surely?

Despite the popular perception in many parts of the world, not every American is litigious. Heston is old, sick, and frail. It is possible he simply doesn't want to spend the last years of his life tied up in a lawsuit.

There is no doubt Heston has the RIGHT to sue. Many lawyers would drool at the thought of taking this case -- it's as close to being a cast-iron win as you can get. But if he doesn't have the INCLINATION to sue, the suit won't be brought.

pinky


--------------------


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918721 - 09/15/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I already showed you that intentionally deceiving someone is the same as lying. Read the definition again.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: shakta]
    #1918726 - 09/15/03 06:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

No, you showed a definition, not necessarily the definition. There are volumes of text on medical ethics and philosophy that would disagree with your definition.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918734 - 09/15/03 06:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

While we're at it, why do you think it is that Heston hasn't sued Moore for slander?



I don't know him personally, but perhaps, despite what the papers would have you believe, not everyone is sue happy here.


Edit: Oops.... I see that one of the wisest minds here beat me to it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (09/15/03 06:15 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918738 - 09/15/03 06:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Are you fucking serious? I guess the dictionary is wrong and you are right.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918785 - 09/15/03 06:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
No, you showed a definition, not necessarily the definition. There are volumes of text on medical ethics and philosophy that would disagree with your definition.




This isn't directed only at you, take from it what applies (if anything)...

This is a good example of one of the things that have gone so horribly wrong with the world today. For some reason people seem to be afraid to say anything is wrong. Well bullshit, what Moore did was wrong, he's a lying sleazebag.

So many are willing to excuse others for this type of crap by saying things like... well his point is still valid, he was abused as a child, he didn't know it was wrong, I didn't want to get involved....

Bullshit, wrong is still wrong and despite the whining of sniveling little shits, it will remain wrong.

Until people are willing to say "that's wrong", things will continue on the same crappy path we're on now.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918803 - 09/15/03 06:31 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Right on. Ann Coulter is wrong.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918828 - 09/15/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

what do you think a good definition of the word "lie" is?

here, i'll give you mine...

to lie: to knowingly saying something that is untrue, presenting it as a true statement.

i could try to check, but i have a feeling that this one's consistant with every single english dictionary in existance. i'd even wager that it's even far more narrow than most.

what's yours?

completely unrelated question: do you think that george w. bush lied about iraq's weapons of mass destruction?


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918833 - 09/15/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

'Wrong' is a subjective term. Executing children is 'wrong' in my book, but evidently many Americans think it's ok. Doing drugs is 'wrong' to many people, but not to all of us here. Just because you see something as 'wrong', does not make it so, it's merely your own cultural bias showing through. Why is it that as a race, we're so hell-bent on proclaiming other people's behaviour as 'wrong'?

I think the reason that people like Shakta and yourself tend to disagree with a lot of my opinions, is because I see just about everything in subjective terms, that's my current reality tunnel. For me to claim that something 'is' right, or 'is' wrong, I would need some kind of all-knowing god-like view of 'reality' where everything is concrete and defined as absolute truth.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918836 - 09/15/03 06:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

we're not talking about "right" and "wrong".

we're talking about what it means to "lie".

what do you think it means?


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918850 - 09/15/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
'Wrong' is a subjective term. Executing children is 'wrong' in my book, but evidently many Americans think it's ok. Doing drugs is 'wrong' to many people, but not to all of us here. Just because you see something as 'wrong', does not make it so, it's merely your own cultural bias showing through. Why is it that as a race, we're so hell-bent on proclaiming other people's behaviour as 'wrong'?

I think the reason that people like Shakta and yourself tend to disagree with a lot of my opinions, is because I see just about everything in subjective terms, that's my current reality tunnel. For me to claim that something 'is' right, or 'is' wrong, I would need some kind of all-knowing god-like view of 'reality' where everything is concrete and defined as absolute truth.




I think that executing children is right and god-like! Thats the concrete absolute truth! - Edame

I just pulled a "moore" on you, I used your exact words, I just took some of them and rearranged them. Would you say that my quote is a lie? That perhaps your post wasn't encouraging the execution of children? If so, how did moore do differently, and why isn't that lying? you child killer!


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918854 - 09/15/03 06:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Why is it that as a race, we're so hell-bent on proclaiming other people's behaviour as 'wrong'?



Because all too frequently, it is.


Quote:

For me to claim that something 'is' right, or 'is' wrong, I would need some kind of all-knowing god-like view of 'reality' where everything is concrete and defined as absolute truth.



Really? Pretty sad.

What can be right about rape?
Waht can be right about child abuse?
What can be right about gas chambers?
What can be right about killing to steal?
What can be right about genocide?

There is right, there is wrong. Subjective? Not in too many cases.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinelysergic
Mycophile!
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 691
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918862 - 09/15/03 06:49 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Psilocybingzzz - Can you finally answer my question as to why you dislike Charleton Heston?


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918863 - 09/15/03 06:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

you're only giving him a chance to keep running with that red herring.

edame...

what is a lie?


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1918916 - 09/15/03 07:07 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
what do you think a good definition of the word "lie" is?

here, i'll give you mine...

to lie: to knowingly saying something that is untrue, presenting it as a true statement.

i could try to check, but i have a feeling that this one's consistant with every single english dictionary in existance. i'd even wager that it's even far more narrow than most.

what's yours?

completely unrelated question: do you think that george w. bush lied about iraq's weapons of mass destruction?




I already gave my opinion on lies and deception a few pages back.

So going by your defintion, where did MM present his 'statement' as truth? How exactly was this edited speech stated as truth? It was as technically correct as any speech coverered by a news organisation, he didn't compile this speech as one long uncut take, he interspersed it with other footage. If you watch it with an open mind it's fairly obvious that it's not all from the same speech. To me it's subjective.

I don't think it can be proven that Bush lied, because we would have to be sure he knew his claims weren't true in the first place. I certainly think he used deception in order to manipulate public opinion though.

If you're interested, do a google search on "difference between lie deception", I found a number of articles on medical ethics and philosophy that show it not to be as clear cut as some would like. It can be subjective depending on any number of variables.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: ]
    #1918920 - 09/15/03 07:08 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
we're not talking about "right" and "wrong".

we're talking about what it means to "lie".

what do you think it means?




Check again, that post wasn't in response to you.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleEdame
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Posts: 1,270
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: lysergic]
    #1918933 - 09/15/03 07:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I think that executing children is right and god-like! Thats the concrete absolute truth! - Edame

I just pulled a "moore" on you, I used your exact words, I just took some of them and rearranged them. Would you say that my quote is a lie? That perhaps your post wasn't encouraging the execution of children? If so, how did moore do differently, and why isn't that lying? you child killer!




You're not paying attention, I already responded to your libellous method of 'quoting'. You would have to insert the correct gaps ("...") to be taken seriously. MM inserted these 'gaps' in the speech also, which you appear to be conveniently overlooking.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Anonymous

Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1918962 - 09/15/03 07:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

for something to be a lie, the liar has to know that what they're saying is untrue at the time they say it.

there's clearly a hell of alot of untruths in the film, but i'm not michael moore and i don't know what he knew when he made the false statements. i suppose i can't say for certain that he knowingly lied. perhaps he's just an complete moron who doesn't bother to check the facts while creating a documentary about something he cares about. or perhaps he's a liar. believe what you wish.

he was knowingly and abominally deceptive however, even if not a "liar" by the strictest definition.

fortunately, his movie is preaching to the gun-control choir, and i think the political impact of this peice of propaganda will be minimal.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1918968 - 09/15/03 07:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

What can be right about rape?
Waht can be right about child abuse?
What can be right about gas chambers?
What can be right about killing to steal?
What can be right about genocide?

There is right, there is wrong. Subjective? Not in too many cases.




Most of those I happen to find morally questionable myself, but you have gas chambers in the US do you not? Many people in the world think of the death penalty as barbaric (myself included), and many think that murder as revenge is justified, who is 'right'?
Not everything is as cut and dry as it seems. I have a different worldview from yours, does that make mine 'wrong' and yours 'right'? Who gets to judge?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Rhetorical double-speak and the hatemongers who use it. [Re: Edame]
    #1919014 - 09/15/03 07:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Who gets to judge?



Me.


All kidding aside, I find your outlook on right and wrong to be reprehensible.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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