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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
#18920220 - 10/02/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Vermiculite has plenty of nutrition, mushrooms can eat rocks.
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mpd
Lammen Gorthaur



Registered: 10/22/12
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
#18920248 - 10/02/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I beg to differ. Vermiculite is not nutritious. Mushrooms might attach themselves to vermiculite, but they aren't feeding on it IMVHO.
-------------------- There is no truer calling for mankind than that of true conservatism.
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: mpd]
#18920320 - 10/02/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I did say it has essentially zero nutritional value. Vermiculite is silica based which mushrooms could really care less about. There are a few trace minerals like magnesium and iron that may be beneficial to fungi though.
What would you rather eat... a loaf of bread, or a handful of rocks (pica sufferers need not answer this)? Most fungi need carbs or lignin of some sort to metabolize, not SiO2.
If you do find silicon based life please let me know. We will win a Nobel prize for sure.
-TM
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
#18920437 - 10/02/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mushrooms will eat literally anything ime, they just have preferences based on what you prepare the best, they're very similar to animals and humans. If you're locked in a room for 40 days and have nothing to eat but rocks and bread you're going to love the shit out of the bread. If you're in the room with nothing but rocks however, or you've finished the bread, you're very likely going to eat rocks, your body will adapt and begin to learn to metabolize the them (they are just minerals after all, even to humans silicon is a trace mineral), and some point you may well begin to even really enjoy the rocks, they're extremely dense in nutritional value, they're just hard for us to metabolize and thus we don't eat many of them.
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up



Registered: 01/24/13
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
#18920487 - 10/02/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: Mushrooms will eat literally anything ime, they just have preferences based on what you prepare the best, they're very similar to animals and humans. If you're locked in a room for 40 days and have nothing to eat but rocks and bread you're going to love the shit out of the bread. If you're in the room with nothing but rocks however, or you've finished the bread, you're very likely going to eat rocks, your body will adapt and begin to learn to metabolize the them (they are just minerals after all, even to humans silicon is a trace mineral), and some point you may well begin to even really enjoy the rocks, they're extremely dense in nutritional value, they're just hard for us to metabolize and thus we don't eat many of them.
seriously krypto, are you saying the human body can adapt to be feeding off rocks?!?
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tybojengles
Introspective Warrior



Registered: 08/02/13
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
#18920509 - 10/02/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wow! This went from crumbling cakes to eating rocks pretty damn fast. LoL
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: spacechildo]
#18920546 - 10/02/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
krypto2000 said: Mushrooms will eat literally anything ime, they just have preferences based on what you prepare the best, they're very similar to animals and humans. If you're locked in a room for 40 days and have nothing to eat but rocks and bread you're going to love the shit out of the bread. If you're in the room with nothing but rocks however, or you've finished the bread, you're very likely going to eat rocks, your body will adapt and begin to learn to metabolize the them (they are just minerals after all, even to humans silicon is a trace mineral), and some point you may well begin to even really enjoy the rocks, they're extremely dense in nutritional value, they're just hard for us to metabolize and thus we don't eat many of them.
seriously krypto, are you saying the human body can adapt to be feeding off rocks?!?
If anyone ate only rocks for 40 days, they would 100% be dead.
It isn't that they are hard to metabolize, they don't metabolize. They are mostly insoluble and the tiny amount available to your metabolic pathways wouldn't do shit for your body as far as ATP is concerned. You need food to survive. It's not a matter of us or them not having elvolved or adapted to better process rocks.
Open a biology book and learn about how carbon based life works, because whats you are describing isn't it.
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: tybojengles]
#18920580 - 10/02/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
tybojengles said: Wow! This went from crumbling cakes to eating rocks pretty damn fast. LoL
Hahaha, to the OP, sorry, not trying to thread jack. I should probably stop replying but I hate it with a passion when bad information gets spread.
It's always good to keep an open mind, just not so open that your brain falls out.
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
#18920781 - 10/02/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheMaster said: Yes, verm straight out of the bag is pretty clean as is, has essentially zero nutrient value
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Mycelium will consume and digest verm, and even plants use vermiculite as 'fertilizer'. Verm is definitely not inert and is suitable for much more than holding water. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15641670#15641670
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RogerRabbit said: Verm does have nutrients. It's actually a pretty good bulk substrate material. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16794668#16794668
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RogerRabbit said: Actually, verm does have nutrients for contaminants as well as mushroom mycelium. Fungi digest minerals. RR
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13665989#13665989
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TheMaster said: Not saying baked is better, but it hurts nothing and I'd hate to see a noob toss all that work away because their batch of verm had enemy spores lurking in it "right out of the bag".
This is going to happen anyways, when you open your oven the verm instantly becomes unsterile, meaning you just wasted your time.
Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
#18923934 - 10/02/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.
I wonder if RR collects any royalties when people reference him. I guess I'll owe him a nickel or something. 
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Vermiculite feeds mycelium, both mold and mushroom mycelium, so it should be baked in an oven before use to ensure it's free of spores. Once used, the live mycelium will take hold before any stray spores have a chance to germinate, but remember for best results to always give it a good heat treatment first. RR
Why not make it a dime.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If it's a brand new bag, there may not be many contaminant spores on the vermiculite, since it's manufactured at very high temperature. However, when the bag has been open for awhile, I've had non-treated verm develop cobweb mold many times, so I always spread it out on a cookie sheet and bake at 350F to 450F for at least half an hour. Longer if it's a thicker layer. RR
I agree completely with RR on his point about baking verm, but not its nutritional value. Funny that second quote from RR you referenced had a different TC chime in ever so eloquently,
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tahoe said:
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Newgrass72 said: Can you spawn the brf cakes straight to verm?
Uh yeah, You could spawn them to anything. But why would you use straight verm?
As far as verm as a substrate is concerned I'm going to do a little experiement of my own to try and prove conclusively that there is very minimal digestion of vermiculite and it only provides trace amounts of nutrients as a substrate and is predominantly a water source. Because, well science is what I do.
As best I know fungi secrete exoenzymes to digest insoluble organic material and then absorb the nutrients that are solublized by said enzymes. First, SiO2 is sparingly soluble in anything other than hydrofluoric acid. Second, vermiculite is inorganic as evidenced by the high temp process to create it. Any change in mass off vermiculate after baking off carbon residue from spent brf cakes will be due to mycelial munchies.
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RogerRabbit said: Sorry, I seriously need to stop checking threads while my coffee is brewing in the morning, and wait until I've had a cup. 
I would love to be proved wrong. I'm no scientist, but an observer. Hopefully this will get some folks spawning grains right into verm to test the theory.
You could bake the verm to remove any moisture content, and then measure the two cups you'll need for five cakes and weigh it. After several flushes, break up and dry the cakes by baking, and I'll bet you the left over mycelium, rice flour and verm won't weigh as much as the verm did at the start. RR
This quote was taken from a thread started years ago.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9626715#9626715
"The vermiculite as a substrate issue" - started by someone other than RR who is also a TC. Clearly dissenting opinions here. I'll start a proper thread once underway so we can finally "squash the beef" as they say.
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
#18924032 - 10/03/13 12:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheMaster said:
Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.
I wonder if RR collects any royalties when people reference him. I guess I'll owe him a nickel or something. 
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Vermiculite feeds mycelium, both mold and mushroom mycelium, so it should be baked in an oven before use to ensure it's free of spores. Once used, the live mycelium will take hold before any stray spores have a chance to germinate, but remember for best results to always give it a good heat treatment first. RR
Why not make it a dime.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: If it's a brand new bag, there may not be many contaminant spores on the vermiculite, since it's manufactured at very high temperature. However, when the bag has been open for awhile, I've had non-treated verm develop cobweb mold many times, so I always spread it out on a cookie sheet and bake at 350F to 450F for at least half an hour. Longer if it's a thicker layer. RR
Fully colonized cakes are still contam resistant.
So you would be baking the verm to sterilize it, then opening the oven which will immediately make it unsterile, then roll fully colonized contam resistant cakes in it.
Yea I soo see the logic there.... 
No need to bake verm bro.....but it's your time wasted, not mine....
Quote RR all day if you like....I enjoy it actually....and I still say sterilizing verm is a waste of time and energy.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
#18924045 - 10/03/13 12:08 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheMaster said: As far as verm as a substrate is concerned I'm going to do a little experiement of my own to try and prove conclusively that there is very minimal digestion of vermiculite and it only provides trace amounts of nutrients as a substrate and is predominantly a water source. Because, well science is what I do.
As best I know fungi secrete exoenzymes to digest insoluble organic material and then absorb the nutrients that are solublized by said enzymes. First, SiO2 is sparingly soluble in anything other than hydrofluoric acid. Second, vermiculite is inorganic as evidenced by the high temp process to create it. Any change in mass off vermiculate after baking off carbon residue from spent brf cakes will be due to mycelial munchies.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Sorry, I seriously need to stop checking threads while my coffee is brewing in the morning, and wait until I've had a cup. 
I would love to be proved wrong. I'm no scientist, but an observer. Hopefully this will get some folks spawning grains right into verm to test the theory.
You could bake the verm to remove any moisture content, and then measure the two cups you'll need for five cakes and weigh it. After several flushes, break up and dry the cakes by baking, and I'll bet you the left over mycelium, rice flour and verm won't weigh as much as the verm did at the start. RR
This quote was taken from a thread started years ago.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9626715#9626715
"The vermiculite as a substrate issue" - started by someone other than RR who is also a TC. Clearly dissenting opinions here. I'll start a proper thread once underway so we can finally "squash the beef" as they say. 
Research "Rez Effect"
The trace minerals found in verm are enough.
Mycellium digests minerals....so yes it digests verm.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
#18924161 - 10/03/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, agreed verm acts as a reservoir of moisture for the fruit bodies, but tiny amounts of iron and magnesium does not a substrate make. You need carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous etc. If anything verm should be considered a multi-tasking substrate ammendment because it provides water, textured porosity and micronutrients.
I have been a "lurker" for a very long time here so I'm already well aware of most teks, and people's eagerness to go off quoting RR without ever really doing too much critical thinking for themselves. He's knows his stuff, but no one is infallible. I'd like to see the data, and if there isn't any yet, there will be once I'm done.
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
#18924173 - 10/03/13 01:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheMaster said: Yes, agreed verm acts as a reservoir of moisture for the fruit bodies, but tiny amounts of iron and magnesium does not a substrate make.
Tell that to all the paople that have tried it.
Like I said research Rez Effect and you will amaze yourself...and maybe learn something.
The data is all right there in the search function.
Many people have spawned cakes/grains to just verm and got great results.
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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TheMaster
PATIENCE


Registered: 07/13/13
Posts: 705
Loc: Earth
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
#18924242 - 10/03/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said: Fully colonized cakes are still contam resistant.
So you would be baking the verm to sterilize it, then opening the oven which will immediately make it unsterile, then roll fully colonized contam resistant cakes in it.
Yea I soo see the logic there.... 
No need to bake verm bro.....but it's your time wasted, not mine....
Quote RR all day if you like....I enjoy it actually....and I still say sterilizing verm is a waste of time and energy.
I do my oven prep mostly to satisfy a need for clean, even though the cakes are less prone to contamination once colonized. Destroying spores I might have floating around later or in abundance pressed against my substrate makes me feel like I'm doing something at least... Haha
I'll have to give it a shot with some pf cakes and cased grain too "right out of the bag".
I know the rez effect and totally agree. Add water laden verm to sub and mushrooms that are 90% water have badass flushes, it makes sense. It is the idea of verm as food that I believe is wrong and have yet to see any conclusive data. RR believes that the end result is somehow greater than the sum of its parts. It just doesn't add up.
-------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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Stromrider
This must be the place



Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 7,338
Loc: Dept of know what I'm say...
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
#18924296 - 10/03/13 02:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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When I first started growing mushrooms I was doing cakes. I probably rolled a total of about 50 cakes in verm. I never once baked the verm and I never had any trouble with contams before the 3rd or 4th flush
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: mpd]
#18924834 - 10/03/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mpd said: I beg to differ. Vermiculite is not nutritious. Mushrooms might attach themselves to vermiculite, but they aren't feeding on it IMVHO.
This is flat-out wrong. Check your facts before posting opinion based on limited knowledge as fact.
Fungi evolved before plants. Exactly what do you think they were feeding on besides solid rock with energy supplied from the sun?
Every noob who has ever grown brf cakes through a few flushes has watched them shrink by 50% or more. Since they're 2/3 vermiculite, exactly what do you think is being consumed if it's not the minerals?
If as you(wrongly) assume that fungi isn't digesting rock, exactly why do growers report increased benefits such as vigor and harvest weight from using vermiculite, calcium carbonate, and gypsum? RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



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Posts: 42,214
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
#18924876 - 10/03/13 08:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Notahacker420 said:
This is going to happen anyways, when you open your oven the verm instantly becomes unsterile, meaning you just wasted your time.
Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.
No, not baking the verm before rolling cakes in it is just plain silly.
Vermiculite has food for fungi, whether you understand the process or not. Vermiculite also holds a ton of water, so the humidity in a room can partly hydrate it. I've seen damp bags of pure vermiculite with cobweb mold covering the entire surface.
By baking the verm before use, you kill off the billions of unwanted fungi and other contaminants which have settled on it since it left the furnaces at the manufacturing plant. Of course, whatever lands on the verm after baking and before harvest will have a chance to grow, but the idea is to reduce the spore load before using so the mushroom mycelium has a window of opportunity to fruit before trichoderma or other molds take hold of the damp verm and grow instead. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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HypnotoadCroaked
Retired, but will check MSGs

Registered: 01/05/13
Posts: 1,168
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
#18924903 - 10/03/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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There was a quote from RR floating around that basically states that using Verm as a 100% casing material can be done, but is not recommended.
Vermiculite is a rock. It is a stone that is heated to about 1200c, and it causes it to expand and fall apart into the form we get it. This is well over 2000f.
Per Vermiculite.org vermiculite is inert. They are experts on vermiculite, while we are just end users. Does mycelium dissolve vermiculite? It is possible. Mycelium dissolves aluminum also, but that does not mean that it there is a added benefit of adding empty cans.
The benefit of vermiculite is that it absorbs water AND any minerals absorbed into the water. Because of the way it is formed, it can hold quite a bit of material. It is a "filler" that we add to cakes and bulk that is not an immediate threat of contamination that holds quite a bit of fluid AND has a high CEC (cation exchange capacity).
Vermiculite is a rock. This is a fact. After that it is mostly speculation. Some users insist that because they see a smaller mass of verm after a grow, it obviously has been consumed. I think that it has more to do with the vermiculite being compressed by the hydraulic force of the mycelum. Mushrooms will push bricks out of the way outdoors, so why can't they squeeze water out of verm?
Pinch some verm in your fingers. Its soft. Dry wash it in-between your hands. It crumbles.
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