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OfflineShroomburger
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Registered: 07/10/11
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The Hericium ID conundrum
    #18923062 - 10/02/13 07:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hello all,

I would like to improve my understanding of Hericium taxonomy; I'm having real trouble pinning it to the sp.  I used to think I understood it, but then I found a lot of ambiguous specimens and specimens of differing morphologies on the same logs, so I'm a bit confused. :confused:

Last year, I found the sporocarps in picture (1), and decided H. americanum was on the left because it has longer teeth, and coralloides on the right.  But I thought it was strange for two separate spp. that they were growing in the same woods, not far from each other, and they fruited right at the same time.  Then I found (2) and (3) on the same log so I started to get a bit more hesitant about my ID.  I figured that all of these were actually H. coralloides.  Then I found (4)(same woods) and (5)(new place) and at this point, I'm not sure which they are.

This year I found (6) thinking it was H. erinaceus but it was growing not far from (7) which looks unlike textbook H. erinaceus.  Plus, (6) appears to branch a bit and the Bessette field guide, Mushrooms of Northeastern North America, says that H. erinaceus is branchless (although in Mycelium Running, Stamets says it can branch).

At another location, I found (8), (9), (10), (11) & (12) - all on the same day on the same tree(which by this time had broken into about 3 or 4 logs, but I think it is safe to presume these sporocarps all belonged to the same organism).  (8) and (9) look like the fabled H. coralloides var rosea.

Today, I found (13) and (14), which was not far from where I found (17) a week ago, and in the same woods as (1), (2), (3), and (4).  Happily I was traveling via bike today so I was able to stand on it to reach (14) [(15)], which I could've sworn was H. erinaceus from a distance but then upon closer inspection I could see that it branched.  A cross section (18) revealed many branches.

The Bessette book puts the distinction like this:
When teeth are arranged in rows along the branch like a comb, that's coralloides.  It's teeth are 1/8 to 3/8 inches long.  One problem I have is that some of my specimens had teeth > 3/8" but arranged along then branch.

H. americanum
fruitbody is a cluster of compact, forking branches with spines arranged primarily in bundles at the tips of the branches, arising from a common base.

I wonder if "primarily" describes just "in bundles" or "at the tips" also.  If the H. americanum has teeth only at the tips, then I've never found it, but if it has teeth primarily at the tips, I think some of these are americanum, but which?

Of H. erinaceus, it says it is branchless, which is the only thing going against the sporocarps in (6) and (14)/(15)/(18).

Adding to the possible confusion is the fact that H. americanum used to be called H. coralloides and what is now called H. coralloides used to be called H. ramosum:boo: 

All of these mushrooms, with the possible exception of (4) [I think it was maple] were growing on dead or dying American beech, in upstate New York.  Can someone please help me resolve any of my confusion?

Also, out of curiosity, are there any genera other than Hericium within Hericiaceae?


1.


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


9.


10.


11.


12.


13.


14.


15.




17.


18.


So what do you make of these?

~SB


Edited by Shroomburger (10/02/13 09:57 PM)


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Invisibleparacelsus
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: Shroomburger]
    #18923120 - 10/02/13 07:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Cool finds :thumbup:


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Offlinexfsketch
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: paracelsus]
    #18923320 - 10/02/13 08:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Really nice! This is the mushroom of my dreams. Have yet to find one. Someday...


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Might Take Some Time, But I Will Find It! Whatever it is. Im a determined person!


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InvisibleRan-D
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: Shroomburger] * 2
    #18923343 - 10/02/13 08:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I agree Hericium are a confusing bunch. I have found lots of specimens like yours and been confused by them as well. I should get my act together and do some work on them this season.


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Offlinerev0kadavur
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: Ran-D]
    #18923365 - 10/02/13 08:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

oh man, at first I thought these were all found in one day... after gawking at your pics I finally read the post... lol.

I am still confused as well... speshully because a lot of my books seem to disagree with each other...

One thing I know for sure, they all taste amazing.


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- Question # Everything -



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Offlinerev0kadavur
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: rev0kadavur]
    #18923384 - 10/02/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

After checking out your Photos through photobucket, I now want to go to NY and hunt~


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- Question # Everything -



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Offlinemountainplayer
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: rev0kadavur] * 1
    #18923386 - 10/02/13 09:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Beautiful pictures and an outstanding post.

Wish I could help with your questions, but my only contribution is that this genus might be more prone to dramatic changes in appearance due to environmental differences than most others, just because of its rather fragile, ornate structure.

Oh, and I'd love to see the un-cropped pic of that Hericium with the Pluteus growing next to it!


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Offlinethetonebone72
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: mountainplayer]
    #18924110 - 10/03/13 12:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You sir, are a lucky man. I hope you are eating all of those!


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Hunt On, Good Fellow



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Offlinekotter
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: thetonebone72] * 1
    #18935147 - 10/05/13 08:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My suspicion is that those are all americanum (formerly corolloides) although some of the more branching ones do look like corolloides (formerly ramosum). (Aren't those sorts of name changes to be avoided?)
The pinkish coloration is common for americanum
There is that extremely dense one with short teeth (on the left in #9) that raises some questions for me but so far (at least here) spores have not shown any difference from the ones with longer more open branches. I see this sometimes also occurring with corolloides (formerly ramosum) here in the west coast so its likely just a potential form growth can take.
We sometimes get another very dense small one that typically gets no larger than a half dollar and has a mildly bitter taste.
Overall they cause me to have a lot of unresolved questions.

From what I can tell americanum and corolloides are both highly variable.

I've grown obsessed with Hericiums in recent years but sure do not believe I understand them yet.


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InvisibleRan-D
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: kotter]
    #18935548 - 10/05/13 10:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I have seen the pinkish color in multiple species, that's just an aging thing.


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InvisibleJoust
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: Ran-D]
    #18935630 - 10/05/13 10:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Wonderful pics, ive never found any species in the genus out here, maybe that will change, probably not.


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~~~~~~***Psilocybin Mushrooms***~~~~~~
_________A Practical Guide To Psilocybin Mushrooms_________

:sporedrop:                      "Think about the species, not your scale". -NeoSporen                      :sporedrop:

"Mr. Joust, I see you don't actually partake in the psilocin, but it looks like it may partake in you!" -Gojira


       


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InvisibleBobzimmer
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: Ran-D]
    #18935682 - 10/05/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe not. I've seen very young ones that were pink. Maybe they were old Hericiums trapped in a young Hericium's body?:shrug:


--------------------
Mr. Mushrooms said:
I will confess something that should be quite obvious, CC.  I love mushrooms, i.e. fungi.  I really do.  I am talking about a strong feeling, i.e. emotion, for them.  I think they are beautiful.  I even dream of them.


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Offlinekotter
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: Bobzimmer]
    #18935727 - 10/05/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Erinaceous, corolloides and americanum all age to a sort of pinkish or tannish-salmon and they eventually turn orange and then brown.

Americanum often starts out pink or salmon tinted. Its the only Hericium that I've seen do that at the beginning.  (As an example see the images in post #18933327)
I'm still learning though -- my experiences with the americanum are entirely via cultivation as I live on the left coast.


Edited by kotter (10/05/13 11:38 AM)


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InvisibleRan-D
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: Bobzimmer]
    #18935757 - 10/05/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bobzimmer said:
Maybe they were old Hericiums trapped in a young Hericium's body?:shrug:




:ohyou:


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Offlinekotter
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: kotter]
    #18935803 - 10/05/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hericiums are more common than many people believe.
I believe that there are several reasons people do not find them more often:
1) They are most often in trees not near the ground
2) They can be secretive and like to hide in, under and behind logs.
3) They fruit best when temps are mild and rain is light or not occurring. ie the ideal oyster weather. By the time enough rain occurs to get the bulk of the edibles going well, the Hericiums have typically already turned to mush. The times when I do the best hunting Hericiums I often find nothing else is fruiting except for oysters and during December "prime" condition #1 matsutakes.
4) Hericiums devastate dead trees and can cause the dropping of large sections so many people aggresively remove Hericium trees as fast as they can. In a city fallen limbs forming fruit may be the only sign that a Hericium tree was once there.

I can offer some suggestions and thoughts based on what I've experienced with corolloides (formerly ramosum). I am assuming that they will overlap with americanum but fine tuning may be needed?
Study that tree with a bicycle leaning against it. Keep an eye open for more trees that look like that (at least basally invaginated or even beyond) and the odds are really high you will find Hericiums on them at some point.  Especially if one of those trees has dropped its top and that fallen part is situated where air can get under at least part of it.
I've learned to watch for those sorts of trees any time of year and then revisit all of them I possibly can whenever the weather is right (Which I think is when daytime highs are between 40-65 degrees F, but the best fruitings come after we've had some freezing weather, accompanying foggy or misty weather or intermittent light rains. Starting as early as October with May being the latest I've collected.) I typically harvest at least 20 lbs. of nice fruiting bodies from this species most winters.


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Offlinexfsketch
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Re: The Hericium ID conundrum [Re: kotter]
    #18936213 - 10/05/13 01:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Sweet mountain bike!:mushroom2:


--------------------
Might Take Some Time, But I Will Find It! Whatever it is. Im a determined person!


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