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sansa
Registered: 11/17/09
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Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame?
#18922708 - 10/02/13 06:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Presto PCs can't be used with gas flames because the steel plate inside the bottom does not cover the entire area and the gas could end up melting the aluminum.
AA PCs do not have this problem because the internally sandwiched steel plate on the bottom covers the entire area meaning you can use them with propane or whatever you like.
The question is, what if you set a Presto PC on a steel plate and placed the gas burner under the plate? Would that be a way to protect the aluminum from melting?
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18922917 - 10/02/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Aluminum has a melting point of 1220F.
Caution: Do not use pressure canner on an outdoor LP gas burner or gas range over 12,000 BTU’s
I think LP gas burns at around 2000c in open air.
Based on the above, I think it would be a risky endeavor. Even if you didn't melt the aluminum, the high heat may warp it. This could cause the seal to break and your PC to pop like a balloon.
But the Presto warning indicates under 12,000 BTU's is safe.
If it does work OK, I think it would be inefficient because you would be diverting a lot of the heat away to protect the PC.
My opinion, don't do it. I'm no expert on these matters though. I'm speaking from pure conjecture. Maybe some one will come along with real world experience.
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sansa
Registered: 11/17/09
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18923821 - 10/02/13 10:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah I was hoping to hear from someone who had possibly tried something similar.
The fact that aluminum melts at 1220 doesn't seem to be important given the fact that AA PCs are mostly aluminum and yet are safe with gas flames.
I may look into using a copper plate instead of steel because it's much more thermally conductive although the cost of the copper may negate the price advantage of the cheap presto pc.
I'm not super worried about it being inefficient since gas is two to four times cheaper to boil water than electric and it's mainly speed I'm interested in rather than energy costs.
Edited by sansa (10/02/13 10:51 PM)
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SuperFly
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18923906 - 10/02/13 11:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I use a 23q Presto on a gas/flame stove with no problems and no warping of the canner. But I have seen somebody with a warped presto after almost 3 years of hellish abuse, looked as if they dunked it in cold water a few times after usage. I believe they posted the pic on the shroomery
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: SuperFly]
#18924210 - 10/03/13 01:27 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Any idea what the BTU output on your gas stove is?
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Fred Teddy
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18925278 - 10/03/13 10:32 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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3 questions:
Did Presto say this about usage on a gas range? Have you ever cooked anything over gas in an aluminum pot? Did it melt?
You should be heating up the contents slowly anyway. You would need a hell of a flame to blow through an aluminum pot with water in it. I say no worries. You wont melt aluminum with water in it. You can boil water on a fire in a paper cup. Really. As long as there is water in the pot you wont melt it. Put enough heat to a dry pot and you'll melt stuff. Gas or not.
If Presto says that, it sounds like lawyers talking. If you have flames coming up around the sides I can see problems. I have a 24000 btu blaster burner on my gas stove. I have had a cheapo Presto for 5 years with no problems. You're playing with fire, you just have to have some sense. If you are that worried about it, electric hot plates go for as little as 15 bucks.
Peace, FT
Edited by Fred Teddy (10/03/13 10:45 AM)
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SuperFly
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18925380 - 10/03/13 11:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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No I don't know the btu output on my stove. I will try to look it up when I get a chance!
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: SuperFly]
#18925576 - 10/03/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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This question is Moot. You cant have the burner up so high that the rocker would constantly be going any way. Whatever burner you have is going to have to be able to go low enough to not run the PC dry or make the weight seize to rest. If your gas flame can go low enough to run the PC then you'll be fine. Maybe you would have a problem using an oxy+gas flame but even still it's about the energy transfer so you'll just use way less of that.
I have boiled water in a paper cup and a plastic bottle over a camp fire and can vouch that it does work. Unless you run it dry you're not melting anything
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36fuckin5
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: bodhisatta]
#18925609 - 10/03/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I use my Presto PC on any stove I need to and it always works. The only issue I ever have is finding exactly the right setting to keep it stable.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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FooMan



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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18925804 - 10/03/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Unless you're using a really small presto the flames shouldn't go beyond the plate anyway. If the flames are coming up the sides, just lower the heat.
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: FooMan]
#18926686 - 10/03/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Regarding having the heat low enough, I'm looking at a Bayou Classic SP1 Jet Cooker which does 185k BTU. Does anyone have experience with burners of that model or type or know if there's a problem with them not being able to go low enough once the PC is up to 15 psi?
Edit: Here's what one person said about it: "The real concern is the jet burner burns super hot which I thought would boil 5 gallons faster, but the jet is just that- a single hot flame that hits the bottom of the pot in one place and possibly burning the wort. It has a shield that slides over to diffuse, but that seriously slows boil time and uses much fuel."
Would using a blowtorch-like burner like that be a bad idea even for an AA PC?
Edited by sansa (10/03/13 04:49 PM)
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18926752 - 10/03/13 05:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I know it's not the answer to your question, and I apologize, but:
Like bodhisatta mentioned, you really don't want to heat your water too fast when trying to sterilize. A slower rise in temperature helps ensure a more even temperature through your grains.
If you bring the water to boil too fast, then you can get your PC up to pressure without the center of your grains being up to temperature. This is not an issue if you can adjust your PC time.
But, in some ways, I'm a sheep and prefer to do things the way people have already figured out.
And, of course, I'm only presuming your OP is about sterilizing grains.
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18926813 - 10/03/13 05:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I am 100% sure you're incorrect about that because the pressure distributes the heat everywhere it can as evenly as physically possible.
The only way the temperature would be unevenly distributed in the grains is if the water runs out and they're being heated by unpressurized dry air rather than pressurized steam.
I'm worried about burning a hole in the bottom of the PC. As long as that doesn't happen the grains will be fine.
Problems with uneven pressure come from releasing the pressure in a matter of seconds which can crack the jars. No burner is going to be able to deliver enough heat to bring the water to an instantaneous boil within a matter of seconds.
Edited by sansa (10/03/13 05:29 PM)
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: Fred Teddy]
#18926826 - 10/03/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fred Teddy said: 3 questions:
Did Presto say this about usage on a gas range? Have you ever cooked anything over gas in an aluminum pot? Did it melt?
You should be heating up the contents slowly anyway. You would need a hell of a flame to blow through an aluminum pot with water in it. I say no worries. You wont melt aluminum with water in it. You can boil water on a fire in a paper cup. Really. As long as there is water in the pot you wont melt it. Put enough heat to a dry pot and you'll melt stuff. Gas or not.
If Presto says that, it sounds like lawyers talking. If you have flames coming up around the sides I can see problems. I have a 24000 btu blaster burner on my gas stove. I have had a cheapo Presto for 5 years with no problems. You're playing with fire, you just have to have some sense. If you are that worried about it, electric hot plates go for as little as 15 bucks.
Peace, FT
Like the other poster said, the manual says not to use over 12,000 BTUs.
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18926889 - 10/03/13 05:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, if you have a PC at say 3psi, then the the water, steam, and grain jars will be the same temperature? Is that what you are suggesting?
This is your thread and not the topic of your OP, so I will not be offended if you want me to just drop it. I don't want to hijack
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18926950 - 10/03/13 05:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Everybody has missed the point of why you can't safely use a burner over 12K btu.
It isn't because the aluminum will melt. It won't melt unless or until the machine runs out of water.
The reason for staying under 12k btu is because if the burner should get placed on high and you fall asleep, that is the maximum btu that can be vented after the rocker, blowout plugs, relief valves, etc., have all blown and/or are blowing.
With a small burner, the pressure will immediately start to drop once the blowout plug opens. With a very large burner the pressure will continue to rise, creating an explosion hazard. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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SpitballJedi
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18927121 - 10/03/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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RR... bustin out the chron-diddly-onic
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18927578 - 10/03/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Everybody has missed the point of why you can't safely use a burner over 12K btu.
It isn't because the aluminum will melt. It won't melt unless or until the machine runs out of water.
The reason for staying under 12k btu is because if the burner should get placed on high and you fall asleep, that is the maximum btu that can be vented after the rocker, blowout plugs, relief valves, etc., have all blown and/or are blowing.
With a small burner, the pressure will immediately start to drop once the blowout plug opens. With a very large burner the pressure will continue to rise, creating an explosion hazard. RR
Do you have an actual link or the math that proves this?
I find it very hard to believe that any burner, propane or not, can put energy into the pot faster than the half inch circular hole in the top from the rubber blowout plug can vent it.
You're saying that the PC will just continue to build pressure indefinitely until either the burner runs out of gas or the PC explodes. That sounds flat out impossible to me.
Even in the highly incredibly impossibly unlikely case that a burner can deliver more energy than the hole can vent, there is only so much liquid material in the PC to begin with. Once that's vented out it's just going to sit there and burn, not explode.
The burner can't add new mass to the contents of the PC.
If you've got the math, post it.
Edited by sansa (10/03/13 07:35 PM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18927619 - 10/03/13 07:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Therein lies the catch-22. If you were smart enough to know the math that he could possibly post you wouldn't need it because that good of a knowledge in physics and math would have left you not having wrote that reply in the first place. If he does post it you won't understand it.
You would be surprised at how much steam can be produced with a huge energy source. Water doesn't reach a temperature higher than it's boiling point according to the pressure. It will only boil faster. Steam boilers can continue to pressurize even with something drawing steam from the tank.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18927650 - 10/03/13 07:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you've got the math, post it.
No.
Search the ASTM database yourself. I gave you the answer but I won't do your damn research too if you don't want to hear it! What you said is exactly why they say to never use more than 12K btu and leave it at that. It's a safety issue. I have a 160,000 BTU propane burner I use on 55 gallon drums and a pressure cooker would fit on it perfectly. It would blow that cheap ass made in china PC all the way back to china in about 2 minutes with blowout plugs venting. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: SpitballJedi]
#18927653 - 10/03/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
SpitballJedi said: So, if you have a PC at say 3psi, then the the water, steam, and grain jars will be the same temperature? Is that what you are suggesting?
This is your thread and not the topic of your OP, so I will not be offended if you want me to just drop it. I don't want to hijack
I'm saying that worrying about whether the grains are heating up too fast is a waste of time because the PC acts as a double boiler. The time it takes the burner to overcome the heat of vaporization is more than enough time for the grains to raise in temperature.
The vertical lines on this chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heat_Content_of_Zn%28c,l,g%29.PNG represent period where the temperature is not rising even though energy is being added.
Because of that, there's absolutely no reason to worry about heating the grains too fast in a PC.
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18927832 - 10/03/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
If you've got the math, post it.
No.
Search the ASTM database yourself. I gave you the answer but I won't do your damn research too if you don't want to hear it! What you said is exactly why they say to never use more than 12K btu and leave it at that. It's a safety issue. I have a 160,000 BTU propane burner I use on 55 gallon drums and a pressure cooker would fit on it perfectly. It would blow that cheap ass made in china PC all the way back to china in about 2 minutes with blowout plugs venting. RR
Fair enough, here's some actual math for you, my blustery friend.
Using the "Air Flow Rate through an Orifice" calculator: http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/air-flow-rate-through-orifice.html
With values 120C, 50 psi, 14.7 psi, .250 in and .7 I get .38 cubic meters per minute.
Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.
Now, the question remains is can your 200k BTU burner deliver enough pressure to the pressure cooker within 1.49 seconds of the blowout valve tripping at 50 psi that it actually, as you put it, "explodes"?
I'm going to say "no" to that given that it probably took a minimum of 5 minutes for the PC to get up to 50 PSI and it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to actually explode aluminum.
Aluminum has a yield strength of 414 mega pascals which is 60045 PSI. While I'm not sure how to use this to calculate the exact point at which a solid sealed aluminum PC will explode, whatever it is it's probably two to three orders of magnitude greater than the piddly 50 psi needed to pop the blowout valve.
For one thing, it takes 100 PSI to blow up a plastic soda bottle, so your PC is going to blow up somewhere far beyond 100 PSI.
There's no way any propane burner that takes 5 minutes to get to 50 PSI can raise the PSI anywhere close to even 100 PSI in a second and a half.
And you're very welcome for me doing this research for you so that next time someone asks this question you can direct them to this post rather than posting the incorrect information you posted originally.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18927868 - 10/03/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.

Steam is not air, nor is water.
Water expands 1600 times when heated to steam. Thus your ten quarts of liquid are no longer ten quarts, but 16,000 quarts. Run that through your orifice calculator. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18927903 - 10/03/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.

Steam is not air, nor is water.
Water expands 1600 times when heated to steam. Thus your ten quarts of liquid are no longer ten quarts, but 16,000 quarts. Run that through your orifice calculator. RR
A very good point. That brings the time to 23.33 minutes EDIT: this is 37.33 not 23. Still no way you're getting into the hundreds of thousands of PSI in minutes needed to explode aluminum given that the burner originally only put in something on the order of 50 PSI in 5 minutes, even for a superhuman burner.
EDIT: math was wrong, should be 37.33 minutes.
Edited by sansa (10/03/13 08:46 PM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18927920 - 10/03/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quoted for posterity. There's just too much fail here. You're going to have to stop pulling shit out of your ass such as it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to cause a pressure cooker to fail. That's just stupid. A pressure cooker is not solid aluminum, it's forged in the case of AA or stamped in the case of the cheap chinese ones.
Quote:
sansa said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
If you've got the math, post it.
No.
Search the ASTM database yourself. I gave you the answer but I won't do your damn research too if you don't want to hear it! What you said is exactly why they say to never use more than 12K btu and leave it at that. It's a safety issue. I have a 160,000 BTU propane burner I use on 55 gallon drums and a pressure cooker would fit on it perfectly. It would blow that cheap ass made in china PC all the way back to china in about 2 minutes with blowout plugs venting. RR
Fair enough, here's some actual math for you, my blustery friend.
Using the "Air Flow Rate through an Orifice" calculator: http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/air-flow-rate-through-orifice.html
With values 120C, 50 psi, 14.7 psi, .250 in and .7 I get .38 cubic meters per minute.
Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.
Now, the question remains is can your 200k BTU burner deliver enough pressure to the pressure cooker within 1.49 seconds of the blowout valve tripping at 50 psi that it actually, as you put it, "explodes"?
I'm going to say "no" to that given that it probably took a minimum of 5 minutes for the PC to get up to 50 PSI and it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to actually explode aluminum.
Aluminum has a yield strength of 414 mega pascals which is 60045 PSI. While I'm not sure how to use this to calculate the exact point at which a solid sealed aluminum PC will explode, whatever it is it's probably two to three orders of magnitude greater than the piddly 50 psi needed to pop the blowout valve.
For one thing, it takes 100 PSI to blow up a plastic soda bottle, so your PC is going to blow up somewhere far beyond 100 PSI.
There's no way any propane burner that takes 5 minutes to get to 50 PSI can raise the PSI anywhere close to even 100 PSI in a second and a half.
And you're very welcome for me doing this research for you so that next time someone asks this question you can direct them to this post rather than posting the incorrect information you posted originally.
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18927922 - 10/03/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Let's say your superhuman burner brings it to 50 PSI in 5 minutes. That's 10 PSI per minute going in. To blow up a very weak aluminum PC with no blowout valve at all, let's say it's only 1000 PSI which is only ten times stronger than a pop bottle. That means it will take your superhuman burner 100 minutes to blow up the PC, far longer than 37.33 minutes.
Edited by sansa (10/03/13 08:45 PM)
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#18927975 - 10/03/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Quoted for posterity. There's just too much fail here. You're going to have to stop pulling shit out of your ass such as it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to cause a pressure cooker to fail. That's just stupid. A pressure cooker is not solid aluminum, it's forged in the case of AA or stamped in the case of the cheap chinese ones.
By "solid aluminum" I of course do not think that PCs are solid chunks of metal. I was describing a hypothetical PC that has no blowout valve and is solid all the way around.
So far I'm the only one posting math and you are light on research so if you've got anything of substance to say go for it.
Edited by sansa (10/03/13 08:44 PM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18928036 - 10/03/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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A pressure vessel is required to hold 4 times its rated pressure without failing. That is all. If you had followed the link I gave you then you'd know that. If you take a 15 psi rated PC to 60 psi, your life is in grave danger as well as that of anyone in your building. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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sansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18928067 - 10/03/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well no kidding. If that's all you had to say why did you bring up that side tangent a burner being able to inject more pressure into a PC than the blowout valve can vent? I thought mods aren't suppose to troll and derail threads with misinfo.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
#18928096 - 10/03/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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This thread has been closed.
Reason: This a tough question. I'm not really sure if I'm locking this because you're trolling, or because you're not trolling, but are actually this stupid. 
I've decided to go with the former since nobody can be this stupid. I'm giving you 30 days off.
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