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Offlinesansa
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 647
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: SpitballJedi]
    #18927653 - 10/03/13 07:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
So, if you have a PC at say 3psi, then the the water, steam, and grain jars will be the same temperature? Is that what you are suggesting?

This is your thread and not the topic of your OP, so I will not be offended if you want me to just drop it. I don't want to hijack



I'm saying that worrying about whether the grains are heating up too fast is a waste of time because the PC acts as a double boiler. The time it takes the burner to overcome the heat of vaporization is more than enough time for the grains to raise in temperature.

The vertical lines on this chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heat_Content_of_Zn%28c,l,g%29.PNG represent period where the temperature is not rising even though energy is being added.

Because of that, there's absolutely no reason to worry about heating the grains too fast in a PC.


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Offlinesansa
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 647
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18927832 - 10/03/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

If you've got the math, post it.




No.

Search the ASTM database yourself. I gave you the answer but I won't do your damn research too if you don't want to hear it! What you said is exactly why they say to never use more than 12K btu and leave it at that. It's a safety issue.  I have a 160,000 BTU propane burner I use on 55 gallon drums and a pressure cooker would fit on it perfectly.  It would blow that cheap ass made in china PC all the way back to china in about 2 minutes with blowout plugs venting.
RR




Fair enough, here's some actual math for you, my blustery friend.

Using the "Air Flow Rate through an Orifice" calculator:
http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/air-flow-rate-through-orifice.html

With values 120C, 50 psi, 14.7 psi, .250 in and .7 I get .38 cubic meters per minute.

Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.

Now, the question remains is can your 200k BTU burner deliver enough pressure to the pressure cooker within 1.49 seconds of the blowout valve tripping at 50 psi that it actually, as you put it, "explodes"?

I'm going to say "no" to that given that it probably took a minimum of 5 minutes for the PC to get up to 50 PSI and it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to actually explode aluminum.

Aluminum has a yield strength of 414 mega pascals which is 60045 PSI. While I'm not sure how to use this to calculate the exact point at which a solid sealed aluminum PC will explode, whatever it is it's probably two to three orders of magnitude greater than the piddly 50 psi needed to pop the blowout valve.

For one thing, it takes 100 PSI to blow up a plastic soda bottle, so your PC is going to blow up somewhere far beyond 100 PSI.

There's no way any propane burner that takes 5 minutes to get to 50 PSI can raise the PSI anywhere close to even 100 PSI in a second and a half.

And you're very welcome for me doing this research for you so that next time someone asks this question you can direct them to this post rather than posting the incorrect information you posted originally.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
    #18927868 - 10/03/13 08:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.





:facepalm:

Steam is not air, nor is water. 

Water expands 1600 times when heated to steam.  Thus your ten quarts of liquid are no longer ten quarts, but 16,000 quarts.  Run that through your orifice calculator.
RR


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Offlinesansa
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 647
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18927903 - 10/03/13 08:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.





:facepalm:

Steam is not air, nor is water. 

Water expands 1600 times when heated to steam.  Thus your ten quarts of liquid are no longer ten quarts, but 16,000 quarts.  Run that through your orifice calculator.
RR




A very good point. That brings the time to 23.33 minutes EDIT: this is 37.33 not 23. Still no way you're getting into the hundreds of thousands of PSI in  minutes needed to explode aluminum given that the burner originally only put in something on the order of 50 PSI in 5 minutes, even for a superhuman burner.

EDIT: math was wrong, should be 37.33 minutes.


Edited by sansa (10/03/13 08:46 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
    #18927920 - 10/03/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quoted for posterity. There's just too much fail here.  You're going to have to stop pulling shit out of your ass such as it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to cause a pressure cooker to fail.  That's just stupid.  A pressure cooker is not solid aluminum, it's forged in the case of AA or stamped in the case of the cheap chinese ones.

Quote:

sansa said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

If you've got the math, post it.




No.

Search the ASTM database yourself. I gave you the answer but I won't do your damn research too if you don't want to hear it! What you said is exactly why they say to never use more than 12K btu and leave it at that. It's a safety issue.  I have a 160,000 BTU propane burner I use on 55 gallon drums and a pressure cooker would fit on it perfectly.  It would blow that cheap ass made in china PC all the way back to china in about 2 minutes with blowout plugs venting.
RR




Fair enough, here's some actual math for you, my blustery friend.

Using the "Air Flow Rate through an Orifice" calculator:
http://www.tlv.com/global/TI/calculator/air-flow-rate-through-orifice.html

With values 120C, 50 psi, 14.7 psi, .250 in and .7 I get .38 cubic meters per minute.

Assume the PC starts out with 10 quarts of liquid, that's 0.00946353 cubic meters. That means the blowout value can empty the entire liquid contents in 0.00946353/.38=0.02490402631 minutes or 1.49424157 seconds.

Now, the question remains is can your 200k BTU burner deliver enough pressure to the pressure cooker within 1.49 seconds of the blowout valve tripping at 50 psi that it actually, as you put it, "explodes"?

I'm going to say "no" to that given that it probably took a minimum of 5 minutes for the PC to get up to 50 PSI and it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to actually explode aluminum.

Aluminum has a yield strength of 414 mega pascals which is 60045 PSI. While I'm not sure how to use this to calculate the exact point at which a solid sealed aluminum PC will explode, whatever it is it's probably two to three orders of magnitude greater than the piddly 50 psi needed to pop the blowout valve.

For one thing, it takes 100 PSI to blow up a plastic soda bottle, so your PC is going to blow up somewhere far beyond 100 PSI.

There's no way any propane burner that takes 5 minutes to get to 50 PSI can raise the PSI anywhere close to even 100 PSI in a second and a half.

And you're very welcome for me doing this research for you so that next time someone asks this question you can direct them to this post rather than posting the incorrect information you posted originally.




--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Offlinesansa
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 647
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
    #18927922 - 10/03/13 08:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Let's say your superhuman burner brings it to 50 PSI in 5 minutes. That's 10 PSI per minute going in. To blow up a very weak aluminum PC with no blowout valve at all, let's say it's only 1000 PSI which is only ten times stronger than a pop bottle. That means it will take your superhuman burner 100 minutes to blow up the PC, far longer than 37.33 minutes.


Edited by sansa (10/03/13 08:45 PM)


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Offlinesansa
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18927975 - 10/03/13 08:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quoted for posterity. There's just too much fail here.  You're going to have to stop pulling shit out of your ass such as it takes hundreds of thousands of PSI to cause a pressure cooker to fail.  That's just stupid.  A pressure cooker is not solid aluminum, it's forged in the case of AA or stamped in the case of the cheap chinese ones.





By "solid aluminum" I of course do not think that PCs are solid chunks of metal. I was describing a hypothetical PC that has no blowout valve and is solid all the way around.

So far I'm the only one posting math and you are light on research so if you've got anything of substance to say go for it.


Edited by sansa (10/03/13 08:44 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
    #18928036 - 10/03/13 08:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

A pressure vessel is required to hold 4 times its rated pressure without failing.  That is all.  If you had followed the link I gave you then you'd know that.  If you take a 15 psi rated PC to 60 psi, your life is in grave danger as well as that of anyone in your building.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison


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Offlinesansa
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 647
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
    #18928067 - 10/03/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well no kidding. If that's all you had to say why did you bring up that side tangent a burner being able to inject more pressure into a PC than the blowout valve can vent? I thought mods aren't suppose to troll and derail threads with misinfo.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Making adapter to use presto PC with gas flame? [Re: sansa]
    #18928096 - 10/03/13 08:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
This a tough question.  I'm not really sure if I'm locking this because you're trolling, or because you're not trolling, but are actually this stupid. :shrug:

I've decided to go with the former since nobody can be this stupid.  I'm giving you 30 days off.  :bye:


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