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Offlinekrypto2000
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What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure?
    #18920871 - 10/02/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Just wondering if anyone knows what mycilium's response is to essentially being pressure cooked, boiled, etc. Does it release any byproducts that may be beneficial to reproduction or adapting the environment for its own growth? Basically I'm wondering if there would be any benefit to say doing a g2g transfer before pressure cooking and then inoculating the jars. Would the spores grow faster, stronger, etc since the environment would be more adapted to it, assuming mycilium does release anything beneficial? What if the grains were soaked in psilocybin and such alkaloids for instance? Are these excreted as a defense of some sort?


Edited by krypto2000 (10/02/13 12:37 PM)


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Offlinehidyn
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18921884 - 10/02/13 03:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Like in the way certain plant roots will secrete enzymes that make it easier for its own species to colonize surrounding soil, or inhibiting the growth of others?

Good question! ...I have no idea. Also it would be interesting to know if the alkaloids produced with done so as a defense. I imagine your train of thought there is increasing the potency of the mushrooms by simulating an attack on the organism, much like administering larger doses of UV-B radiation to Cannabis plants to increase trichome production?

I love it! Definitely something to experiment with!! :laugh:


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? [Re: hidyn]
    #18922081 - 10/02/13 03:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Well I've been not cleaning my jars, the colonized grains that are stuck to the edges and any clumps formed in the bottom, and just reusing them as is with new grain prep. Hopefully it will have some sort of benefit. I figure if somehow any mycilium is still alive it will simply grow and anything else is either dead, eg composted/carbonized, or broken down into enzymes, maybe even alkaloids, which can then be used by any new cultures grown in the same jar. I haven't tried anything with a bunch of colonized grains yet as I don't want to waste any spawn, but maybe if I get some extra I'll try adding it in larger quantities.


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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18923006 - 10/02/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If I could move this post I would...certainly should not be in adv mycology. And you are lazy...fucking clean your jars dork.


(if you had the nerve to post this shit you should be ready to be called names worse than "dork")

Thanks have a nice day.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: krypto2000]
    #18923091 - 10/02/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Not advanced mycology


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18923405 - 10/02/13 09:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Lol gretchin.    Ya know I would however like to know how myc and fruitbodies behave when cultivated under pressure, say an extra atmosphere or two. Or possibly in a negative one.


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: maddchef]
    #18923675 - 10/02/13 10:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

maddchef said:
Lol gretchin.    Ya know I would however like to know how myc and fruitbodies behave when cultivated under pressure, say an extra atmosphere or two. Or possibly in a negative one.




I'm no mycologist, but I would assume that since the species developed and evolved under 1 atm, I would think that more pressure would be harmful, and less than 1 atm may either do nothing or provide some sort of benefit like increased colonization rate.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18924905 - 10/03/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would imagine there is an optimal atmospheric pressure for them, perhaps even if you started with a lot of pressure (spores can withstand more than mycilium I would imagine, allowed it to germinate and then slowly decreased the pressure that they would expand to fill it and possibly end up larger and more vigorous. Totally just a guess however. I still believe there may be a benefit to adding in some mycilium or spores to the jars before PCing, but it all depends upon what they do/break down into. For the former we could just look to people who've grown shrooms at high altitudes and see if there is any difference.


Edited by krypto2000 (10/03/13 08:15 AM)


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: krypto2000]
    #18924968 - 10/03/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I would imagine there is an optimal atmospheric pressure for them, perhaps even if you started with a lot of pressure (spores can withstand more than mycilium I would imagine, allowed it to germinate and then slowly decreased the pressure that they would expand to fill it and possibly end up larger and more vigorous. Totally just a guess however. I still believe there may be a benefit to adding in some mycilium or spores to the jars before PCing, but it all depends upon what they do/break down into. For the former we could just look to people who've grown shrooms at high altitudes and see if there is any difference.




As a general rule of thumb, this would only be a possible evolutionary trait over a long sequence of generations. I do not know how long mycelium cells or whatever they are called (some kind of eukaryote?)live, nor how fast they reproduce in proportion to their lifetimes.

To use an analogy, if you changed the pressure of Earth for Humans, we would grow up with some genetics that are meant to work for our 1 atm atmosphere, but we would grow through adaptation. If you were to revert the atmospheric pressure back to 1, we would at that instant still have the same properties as before, but over time we would re-adapt to always maintain homeostasis among other processes of equilibrium. I would suspect the same of mycelium.

In short, changing your pressure to something that isn't natural on Earth and then reverting it back during mycelial growth phase will do little in the long term unless you do this for successive generations and isolate strains that grow the best under the new pressures. And even after this, if you revert pressure back to normal, there's no telling how they would respond.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18924989 - 10/03/13 08:44 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I was thinking more so that in a MS grow a natural selection would occur as the spores most viable to grow under that atmosphere would also be the ones most likely to germinate and also grow, thus they'd spread most quickly. I'm not sure if there's any long term benefits to doing this, even if you did it over a few generations you'd have limited genetics and any spores produced would also have limited genetics (though obviously still a wider range than their original fruits), but what implications this has, if any, I can only guess. My original thought was based on the idea that mushrooms used to grow really big, some as large as trees (there was a time when mushrooms were the largest things growing) and over their natural life cycle they would experience a decrease in pressure as they grew up out of the ground (there's of course more pressure the more dirt you throw on top) and then as well the higher up into the atmosphere they reached the pressure would continue to drop.


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: krypto2000]
    #18925028 - 10/03/13 08:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I would guess that because you would have such a tight genetic bottleneck, that this would only serve a purpose if you kept the same isolated strain going for yeeeeaaaaars to get mutations and genetic diversity back. And even if you manage to get diversity back, there's no telling how much of a change there would even be. Kind of a fruitless task, even if you can still get fruits from it ;P

I'm actually interested in what a change in atmospheric composition would do for the mushrooms. Like a decrease in CO2 and an increase in say, Argon.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18925033 - 10/03/13 09:00 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Why would you necessarily want to get genetic diversity back?


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Invisiblemaddchef
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: krypto2000]
    #18925085 - 10/03/13 09:22 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

While we're speculating, I'd like to see an isolate grow using grains that were hydrated is a 3 or 4% lc solution.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: maddchef]
    #18925123 - 10/03/13 09:39 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I have a bunch of interesting things I'd like to try when I get the materials. Hydrating grains in myco metabolites. Hydrating them in 'mushroom tea', dunk water, etc. Likewise for the substrate. I feel as though all of these would have some benefit towards the myciliums growth.

My thought in particular is this. Mushrooms are very quick and adaptable, they can and want to eat almost anything you give them, it's just a matter of staving off their competitors long enough so that they can. Any by products they make helps suit the environment for them and further helps them fight off competitors. I view giving them back their own metabolites or alkaloids similar to giving a human (or plant) a vitamin/fertilizer suppliment. They'll grow without it, but the less they have to produce on their own and can instead simply take out of the growth medium, provided it's easily extractable, the less work they have to do, the less resources they have to waste, and thus they can spend that energy on simply growing or producing other beneficial alkaloids/metabolites.

Likewise if you feed them dead bacteria, fungi, or spores (perhaps all of these should be at some stage of decomposition first, but hopefully that's what the soak and/or pressure cooking will accomplish) they will learn to fight against them and produce metabolites, alkaloids, or whatever else we currently don't know about to combat them. Ideally over doing this enough I'd think they could fight off living pathogens after they've become adapted enough at decomposing, perhaps even eating, the dead ones. Ultimately it'd be great to have a very virulent mushroom strain or colony that you could simply handle in the open air without worry of contamination. Wouldn't that be great to just have a jar of culture whom you can then just take a spoon full out of mix it with some other soaked grains, which don't need to be pressure cooked mind you, and have it fully colonize, and to keep that original culture going you simply add more grains right back in. Since they'd eat, or otherwise break down, any bacteria present you could even keep them in the open air, perhaps just leave the lids off the jars, and they'd effectively feed themselves through whatever lands in the jar and this would also clean your house and freshen the air. One day man, one day :smirk:


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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: krypto2000]
    #18925227 - 10/03/13 10:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You'd be better off growing mush myc and trich side by side until the competing mold wins over, assuming you could get fruitbodies. Then repeating the process until you're 100 years old and trying to force some type of evolutionary defense mechanism.

But again, not going to happen. Better to do a tiny grow, hydrating your sub with nothing but myc metabolites and not adding spawn. Document how long it takes for a competitor mold to gain a foothold.


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All mushrooms are edible, but some only once.....                     

                                        Easier than cakes

I do science and shit.

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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: krypto2000]
    #18926384 - 10/03/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Why would you necessarily want to get genetic diversity back?




Look at it this way. You start off with an entire selection of genetically SIMILAR spores/mycelium. Not every single one is the same as the next, but none are radically different. Growth occurs, whether by natural selection of the cells or generations of mushroom lifecycles, and some genetic variations develop. Mutants. One mutant variety may contain more mitochondria in its cell structure, thus allowing it to store more energy, and release more energy, allowing for more growth and division of cells, as well as defense capacity. However, the regular strain was the one that developed a different mutation, one that you have taken notice of and would like to isolate. You would isolate that particular strain, whether you know of the other strain that has more mitochondria or not, and you would use that strain in future grows.

Now you have a whole bunch of spores that are SIMILAR to one another. They all have the mutation you isolated, but every couple of them is a bit different with unnoticeable mutations. You have a genetic bottleneck now. There are very few mutants in here that can survive attack from something especially dangerous, as our extra-mitochondria strain may have, had we not disposed of it. You need to wait several generations before you'll get genetic diversity back, so that you may get better strains again after your first isolated strain.

Compare it to antibiotics and bacterial infections: We use antibiotics to treat bacterial infections. Each time you take antibiotics you wipe out a considerable amount of bacteria. By the time you're close to finishing your round of antibiotics, you have eliminated ~99% of all bacteria in the target areas. However, there is 1% left that has not been killed. It is most likely that this 1% has a mutation that allowed it to develop a resistance to your antibiotics. If you do not finish the round of antibiotics and kill off all the infectious bacteria, even the resistant (resistant does not mean immune) bacteria, the resistant bacteria will divide and multiply and pretty soon, you have a superbug that can no longer be treated by that specific antibiotic you have been taking. If you become contagious again, you now spread on a mutated bacteria that is resistant to a particular antibiotic.

Apply the same genetic factors and ideas into mushroom cultivation.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18926439 - 10/03/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
Now you have a whole bunch of spores that are SIMILAR to one another. They all have the mutation you isolated, but every couple of them is a bit different with unnoticeable mutations. You have a genetic bottleneck now. There are very few mutants in here that can survive attack from something especially dangerous, as our extra-mitochondria strain may have, had we not disposed of it. You need to wait several generations before you'll get genetic diversity back, so that you may get better strains again after your first isolated strain.





Can you expand on that a bit? I assume you're talking about when taking a spore print from the desirable mutant right? What are you referring to when you say 'as our extra-mitochondria strain may have, had we not disposed of it?' Why would we dispose of that strain? Also if you're losing a lot of mushies to a contamination that that one mutant/strain is resistant against and you are trying to isolate spores to be only of that mutation couldn't you purposefully infect your grow with something that it's grown a resistance to and thus anything that grows will probably, if not even have to be, from that same mutant otherwise it simply would not have grown?

To use an expanded example say you're trying to grow a cube resistant to trich, one that can metabolize trich even. So you find one, take a spore print, and load it up in your syringe. Now to further select for it could you not inoculate a jar with both trich and that spore syringe? If the mutation is present it should metabolize the trich present and thus end up fully colonizing the jar anyhow which you can then fruit and get a further isolated generation of spores, take a clone, etc. Am I understanding this correctly?


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: What does mycilium do when put under heat and pressure? (moved) [Re: krypto2000]
    #18929511 - 10/04/13 03:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
Now you have a whole bunch of spores that are SIMILAR to one another. They all have the mutation you isolated, but every couple of them is a bit different with unnoticeable mutations. You have a genetic bottleneck now. There are very few mutants in here that can survive attack from something especially dangerous, as our extra-mitochondria strain may have, had we not disposed of it. You need to wait several generations before you'll get genetic diversity back, so that you may get better strains again after your first isolated strain.





Can you expand on that a bit? I assume you're talking about when taking a spore print from the desirable mutant right? What are you referring to when you say 'as our extra-mitochondria strain may have, had we not disposed of it?' Why would we dispose of that strain? Also if you're losing a lot of mushies to a contamination that that one mutant/strain is resistant against and you are trying to isolate spores to be only of that mutation couldn't you purposefully infect your grow with something that it's grown a resistance to and thus anything that grows will probably, if not even have to be, from that same mutant otherwise it simply would not have grown?

To use an expanded example say you're trying to grow a cube resistant to trich, one that can metabolize trich even. So you find one, take a spore print, and load it up in your syringe. Now to further select for it could you not inoculate a jar with both trich and that spore syringe? If the mutation is present it should metabolize the trich present and thus end up fully colonizing the jar anyhow which you can then fruit and get a further isolated generation of spores, take a clone, etc. Am I understanding this correctly?




You may not notice that a particular strain has mutated because the mutation is subtle. We're not talking some extreme numbers like 5x the amount of mitochondria, we're talking about a mutation that causes each cell to have maybe a few more. A cultivator may never isolate that gene because the phenotype is almost undetectable. My point is that basically, when you isolate one strain, you are immediately removing it from the rest of the gene pool, and thus the rest of the gene pool from it unless you keep crossbreeding. If you isolate a strain with mutation A, and the rest of your supply has mutations B and C, the strain with isolation A will be bottlenecked because none of its members have mutation B or C. This is my understanding of genetics and biology, anyways. I am not an expert on this, though.

In regards to the trich + spore inoculation you speak of, the only danger towards the spores I see in that is if the trich is able to grow at a rate that actually takes up the nutrients and thus outlives the mycelium via withholding nutrients vital for survival. My guess is that with eukaryotes, since they can have multiple life cycles, you would need to know where the mutative gene expresses itself. For example, there may be a mutation that causes mycelium to literally eat trich, or there may be a mutation that allows for trich to grow on fruits through some sort of symbiotic relationship. It's a crapshoot unless you know exactly where this gene expresses as a phenotype.

This all sort of gets easier the more research we do on mushroom strains and mutations, but sadly, it appears as though mycology is an unpopular field in comparison to something such as say, pharmacology. If you had the genome for a particular mushroom strain mapped out and knew all the genetic markets (had them recorded somewhere), you would easily be able to compare the genetic make up of two different populations and check for mutations, which, if any show up, you will know what exactly they do because you'll have the knowledge of the unmutated genetic marker, and can thus deduce the difference. Some mutations do absolutely nothing in practical terms, though. For instance, think of every possible characteristic of humans you can come up with, and then compare that rough estimate to the estimated 20,000 genes we carry.


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