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Invisiblejpack666
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Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
not enough cakes to case
    #18916441 - 10/01/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

really simple newby question
my friend needed about 10 cakes for his casing, ends up with only 6...
they are brf he plans to crumble

which of the 2 would be the easiest:
1. crumble and use crumblings to re-inoculate 10 cakes (make more substrate)
2. spawn the 6 cakes to a casing mix, let full innoc occur, then recrumble the full casing, and then re-case (hoping that this increases the mycelium available to fruit)

thanks in advance


--------------------
"There's a negative and a positive to everything."  :mushroom2:

For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


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Invisiblejpack666
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Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18916518 - 10/01/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

i may have provided too few details...
so here...

my friend has a tub and because some of his brf cakes didnt spawn, he doesnt have enough collonized substrate to make a full layer at the bottom of his tub and he doesnt want to redo a smaller tub/casing chamber...

so he's wondering what is the best way to turn 6 half pint brf cakes to at least 10 of them... and have all of them full inoculates at the same time...

he also had the idea of casing/innoculating from one pan and always recrumbling the mixture once full innoc and then redoing a 50/50 mix in a pan twice as big and repeating the process untill he gets the amt of colonized substrate he wants to fruit... but he's a total newb and doesnt know if this is possible... but he thought this would be the only way since if he adds crumbles to sterilized substrate he is introducing contaminents to the jars... he doesnt know if this is still an issue if the mix is something like 50% sterilized brf and verm, then open jar in glove box and fill jar with colonized substrate crumblings and then reclose ans reinnoc... maybe if a jar is 50% fully colonized the contaminants won't have an impact.... but to him that feels more risky that just casing what he has and then crumbling the full casing once fully collonized and then recasing all the crumblings with new uncolonized casing mix.

along those lines, he thought of a third option..do  50/50 casing with the 6 cakes... make it really thin, wait for full innoc, then recase, wait for full innoc, then recase, in repetition until his casing would be at least 2-3 inches deep/thick...

thanks


--------------------
"There's a negative and a positive to everything."  :mushroom2:

For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


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Offlinespacechildo
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Registered: 01/24/13
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18916669 - 10/01/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

fruit cakes as cakes.
As far as all that casing talk goes, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Try to distinguish between the words substrate and casing.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18916805 - 10/01/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jpack666 said:
i may have provided too few details...
so here...

my friend has a tub and because some of his brf cakes didnt spawn, he doesnt have enough collonized substrate to make a full layer at the bottom of his tub and he doesnt want to redo a smaller tub/casing chamber...

so he's wondering what is the best way to turn 6 half pint brf cakes to at least 10 of them... and have all of them full inoculates at the same time...

he also had the idea of casing/innoculating from one pan and always recrumbling the mixture once full innoc and then redoing a 50/50 mix in a pan twice as big and repeating the process untill he gets the amt of colonized substrate he wants to fruit... but he's a total newb and doesnt know if this is possible... but he thought this would be the only way since if he adds crumbles to sterilized substrate he is introducing contaminents to the jars... he doesnt know if this is still an issue if the mix is something like 50% sterilized brf and verm, then open jar in glove box and fill jar with colonized substrate crumblings and then reclose ans reinnoc... maybe if a jar is 50% fully colonized the contaminants won't have an impact.... but to him that feels more risky that just casing what he has and then crumbling the full casing once fully collonized and then recasing all the crumblings with new uncolonized casing mix.

along those lines, he thought of a third option..do  50/50 casing with the 6 cakes... make it really thin, wait for full innoc, then recase, wait for full innoc, then recase, in repetition until his casing would be at least 2-3 inches deep/thick...

thanks





:wellthatsweird:


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: Stromrider]
    #18916817 - 10/01/13 03:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

www.mushroomvideos.com Best tip I can give you
Follow it word by word, to the T-E-K!


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: spacechildo]
    #18916821 - 10/01/13 03:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
www.mushroomvideos.com Best tip I can give you
Follow it word by word, to the T-E-K!




Very good advice indeed


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OfflineMosey3012
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: Stromrider]
    #18917143 - 10/01/13 04:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

As far as going from start to finish the video link above yes is the best route to take.

In an attempt to educate you some, and avoid copying someone elses info, so that your posts in the future make more sense to us here reading and potentially hoping to help out, lets clear up a few things terminology wise...

First off, your best bet as already stated considering the grow method being used would be to simply just fruit the cakes as cakes.

Next, lets say you where to crumble your cakes up so you could use them to spread the myc growth on them onto something else... This would be using your cakes as "spawn".

You would take this "spawn" and distribute it into a "substrate". A "substrate" is a nutritious mixture that the mycelium can further colonize as to provide it with more nutrients and such for when it comes fruiting time.

"Fruits" are the mushrooms you actually grow off whatever it is you're growing them off...

To establish something with regards to P. Cubensis. They do not need a "casing" layer to grow. They will fruit perfectly fine without one.

I cant honestly say whether or not rolling a cake in verm is considered a form of casing or not... I'm sure someone will jump to answer this soon enough though. I can however say that generally a casing layer is something that needs to be "pasteurized" to kill off any unwanted meanies living in it. Do not however get "pasteurized" confused with "sterilized" as they are 2 very different things.

Also, to my understanding vermiculite is pretty much sterile right out the bag.

You would pressure cook something to properly "sterilize" it, while "pasteurization" is a method used where you keep your mixture at 160 degree's F for at least an hour.

A "casing" layer is a non nutritious layer that is applied to the top, or areas of a substrate that you plan to fruit, to assist with moisture, relative humidity, and prob a mess of other things. I'm not going to go into detail nor am I very knowledgeable about casing so Id rather not misinform you here. Just imagine in nature, theres a fully colonized nutritious mixture that the muc has fully colonized that is covered up with some sort of dirt or hay that it fruits through, this layer covering it up is your "casing". If you look up what people on here use for casing layers its literally in some cases just filtered potting soil.

That being said, there are certain types of mushrooms that require a casing layer to grow. A lot of the time these same mushrooms also require zero misting after they've started growing unlike your Cubensis which can handle misting just fine...

I feel like this should be a good starting point for you, and as I said if anything mentioned here is not completely accurate it'll be quickly corrected as well many members here are quicker to jump on someone for that then to answer the OP's original question... and I love them for this lol. Best of luck!

Mosey


--------------------

"Each of these lives is the right one! Every path is the right path. Everything could have been anything else and it would have just as much meaning"



"All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost"



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Invisiblejpack666
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Posts: 484
Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: Mosey3012]
    #18917241 - 10/01/13 04:54 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
As far as going from start to finish the video link above yes is the best route to take.

In an attempt to educate you some, and avoid copying someone elses info, so that your posts in the future make more sense to us here reading and potentially hoping to help out, lets clear up a few things terminology wise...

First off, your best bet as already stated considering the grow method being used would be to simply just fruit the cakes as cakes.

Next, lets say you where to crumble your cakes up so you could use them to spread the myc growth on them onto something else... This would be using your cakes as "spawn".

You would take this "spawn" and distribute it into a "substrate". A "substrate" is a nutritious mixture that the mycelium can further colonize as to provide it with more nutrients and such for when it comes fruiting time.

"Fruits" are the mushrooms you actually grow off whatever it is you're growing them off...

To establish something with regards to P. Cubensis. They do not need a "casing" layer to grow. They will fruit perfectly fine without one.

I cant honestly say whether or not rolling a cake in verm is considered a form of casing or not... I'm sure someone will jump to answer this soon enough though. I can however say that generally a casing layer is something that needs to be "pasteurized" to kill off any unwanted meanies living in it. Do not however get "pasteurized" confused with "sterilized" as they are 2 very different things.

Also, to my understanding vermiculite is pretty much sterile right out the bag.

You would pressure cook something to properly "sterilize" it, while "pasteurization" is a method used where you keep your mixture at 160 degree's F for at least an hour.

A "casing" layer is a non nutritious layer that is applied to the top, or areas of a substrate that you plan to fruit, to assist with moisture, relative humidity, and prob a mess of other things. I'm not going to go into detail nor am I very knowledgeable about casing so Id rather not misinform you here. Just imagine in nature, theres a fully colonized nutritious mixture that the muc has fully colonized that is covered up with some sort of dirt or hay that it fruits through, this layer covering it up is your "casing". If you look up what people on here use for casing layers its literally in some cases just filtered potting soil.

That being said, there are certain types of mushrooms that require a casing layer to grow. A lot of the time these same mushrooms also require zero misting after they've started growing unlike your Cubensis which can handle misting just fine...

I feel like this should be a good starting point for you, and as I said if anything mentioned here is not completely accurate it'll be quickly corrected as well many members here are quicker to jump on someone for that then to answer the OP's original question... and I love them for this lol. Best of luck!

Mosey



Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
As far as going from start to finish the video link above yes is the best route to take.

In an attempt to educate you some, and avoid copying someone elses info, so that your posts in the future make more sense to us here reading and potentially hoping to help out, lets clear up a few things terminology wise...

First off, your best bet as already stated considering the grow method being used would be to simply just fruit the cakes as cakes.

Next, lets say you where to crumble your cakes up so you could use them to spread the myc growth on them onto something else... This would be using your cakes as "spawn".

You would take this "spawn" and distribute it into a "substrate". A "substrate" is a nutritious mixture that the mycelium can further colonize as to provide it with more nutrients and such for when it comes fruiting time.

"Fruits" are the mushrooms you actually grow off whatever it is you're growing them off...

To establish something with regards to P. Cubensis. They do not need a "casing" layer to grow. They will fruit perfectly fine without one.

I cant honestly say whether or not rolling a cake in verm is considered a form of casing or not... I'm sure someone will jump to answer this soon enough though. I can however say that generally a casing layer is something that needs to be "pasteurized" to kill off any unwanted meanies living in it. Do not however get "pasteurized" confused with "sterilized" as they are 2 very different things.

Also, to my understanding vermiculite is pretty much sterile right out the bag.

You would pressure cook something to properly "sterilize" it, while "pasteurization" is a method used where you keep your mixture at 160 degree's F for at least an hour.

A "casing" layer is a non nutritious layer that is applied to the top, or areas of a substrate that you plan to fruit, to assist with moisture, relative humidity, and prob a mess of other things. I'm not going to go into detail nor am I very knowledgeable about casing so Id rather not misinform you here. Just imagine in nature, theres a fully colonized nutritious mixture that the muc has fully colonized that is covered up with some sort of dirt or hay that it fruits through, this layer covering it up is your "casing". If you look up what people on here use for casing layers its literally in some cases just filtered potting soil.

That being said, there are certain types of mushrooms that require a casing layer to grow. A lot of the time these same mushrooms also require zero misting after they've started growing unlike your Cubensis which can handle misting just fine...

I feel like this should be a good starting point for you, and as I said if anything mentioned here is not completely accurate it'll be quickly corrected as well many members here are quicker to jump on someone for that then to answer the OP's original question... and I love them for this lol. Best of luck!

Mosey




thanks. i really
Quote:

Mosey3012 said:
As far as going from start to finish the video link above yes is the best route to take.

In an attempt to educate you some, and avoid copying someone elses info, so that your posts in the future make more sense to us here reading and potentially hoping to help out, lets clear up a few things terminology wise...

First off, your best bet as already stated considering the grow method being used would be to simply just fruit the cakes as cakes.

Next, lets say you where to crumble your cakes up so you could use them to spread the myc growth on them onto something else... This would be using your cakes as "spawn".

You would take this "spawn" and distribute it into a "substrate". A "substrate" is a nutritious mixture that the mycelium can further colonize as to provide it with more nutrients and such for when it comes fruiting time.

"Fruits" are the mushrooms you actually grow off whatever it is you're growing them off...

To establish something with regards to P. Cubensis. They do not need a "casing" layer to grow. They will fruit perfectly fine without one.

I cant honestly say whether or not rolling a cake in verm is considered a form of casing or not... I'm sure someone will jump to answer this soon enough though. I can however say that generally a casing layer is something that needs to be "pasteurized" to kill off any unwanted meanies living in it. Do not however get "pasteurized" confused with "sterilized" as they are 2 very different things.

Also, to my understanding vermiculite is pretty much sterile right out the bag.

You would pressure cook something to properly "sterilize" it, while "pasteurization" is a method used where you keep your mixture at 160 degree's F for at least an hour.

A "casing" layer is a non nutritious layer that is applied to the top, or areas of a substrate that you plan to fruit, to assist with moisture, relative humidity, and prob a mess of other things. I'm not going to go into detail nor am I very knowledgeable about casing so Id rather not misinform you here. Just imagine in nature, theres a fully colonized nutritious mixture that the muc has fully colonized that is covered up with some sort of dirt or hay that it fruits through, this layer covering it up is your "casing". If you look up what people on here use for casing layers its literally in some cases just filtered potting soil.

That being said, there are certain types of mushrooms that require a casing layer to grow. A lot of the time these same mushrooms also require zero misting after they've started growing unlike your Cubensis which can handle misting just fine...

I feel like this should be a good starting point for you, and as I said if anything mentioned here is not completely accurate it'll be quickly corrected as well many members here are quicker to jump on someone for that then to answer the OP's original question... and I love them for this lol. Best of luck!

Mosey




thanks. i now see how without exact terminology it is difficult to understand me

so my friend... will crumble brf cakes and use them as spawn to spread myc growth to a substrate. probably 50/50 peat-verm. what he wants to know: once the myc will have fully spread to this substrate, ready to fruit, insteading of fruiting, can he keep spreading the myc to more substrate to increase the yield he will get? can he take this colonised substrate, crumble it and use it as spawn for more peat/verm? or can he just add a peat-verm layer over the colonized substrate, keep ithe dark and wait for the below layers to spawn the new layer? thus gradually increasing the myc he is going to fruit from? would this increase yield or compensate for fewer cakes than expected?

i appologize in advance if at some point i may have used wrong terminology, thanks for helping me help my friend


--------------------
"There's a negative and a positive to everything."  :mushroom2:

For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


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Invisiblejpack666
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Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 484
Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18917415 - 10/01/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

if this is all about words... then lets invent new words and no one will be confused. lets call it a myc cake... like a real cake imagine it 12" long, 6" wide & 1" thick... fully colonized substrate... a big white brick. lets call this a myc cake for lack of a better word. all my friend is asking is if this myc cake could be crumbled up to spawn more pastheurized substrate... you know... to end up with the same thing but instead your final myc cake is 12" x 6" BUT 2" thick now? has this ever been done? using a fully colonized bulk substrate, crumbling it up to use as spawn for a pastheurized mix?


--------------------
"There's a negative and a positive to everything."  :mushroom2:

For more information, RogerRabbit's Website/Videos


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18917799 - 10/01/13 07:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

so my friend... will crumble brf cakes and use them as spawn to spread myc growth to a substrate. probably 50/50 peat-verm.




Peat/verm is a casing material, not a substrate material.  BRF cakes are already 2/3 verm, so casing provides no additional benefit.  If you don't want to fruit them as cakes, break them up and spawn to a bulk substrate such as pasteurized coir or straw, horse manure, etc.  When the bulk substrate is fully colonized, fruit it as is, uncased.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18918117 - 10/01/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jpack666 said:
if this is all about words... then lets invent new words and no one will be confused. lets call it a myc cake... like a real cake imagine it 12" long, 6" wide & 1" thick... fully colonized substrate... a big white brick. lets call this a myc cake for lack of a better word. all my friend is asking is if this myc cake could be crumbled up to spawn more pastheurized substrate... you know... to end up with the same thing but instead your final myc cake is 12" x 6" BUT 2" thick now? has this ever been done? using a fully colonized bulk substrate, crumbling it up to use as spawn for a pastheurized mix?




Yes


Edited by krypto2000 (10/01/13 08:15 PM)


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OfflineSockadin
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18918444 - 10/01/13 09:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

jpack666 said:
i may have provided too few details...
so here...

my friend has a tub and because some of his brf cakes didnt spawn, he doesnt have enough collonized substrate to make a full layer at the bottom of his tub and he doesnt want to redo a smaller tub/casing chamber...

so he's wondering what is the best way to turn 6 half pint brf cakes to at least 10 of them... and have all of them full inoculates at the same time...

he also had the idea of casing/innoculating from one pan and always recrumbling the mixture once full innoc and then redoing a 50/50 mix in a pan twice as big and repeating the process untill he gets the amt of colonized substrate he wants to fruit... but he's a total newb and doesnt know if this is possible... but he thought this would be the only way since if he adds crumbles to sterilized substrate he is introducing contaminents to the jars... he doesnt know if this is still an issue if the mix is something like 50% sterilized brf and verm, then open jar in glove box and fill jar with colonized substrate crumblings and then reclose ans reinnoc... maybe if a jar is 50% fully colonized the contaminants won't have an impact.... but to him that feels more risky that just casing what he has and then crumbling the full casing once fully collonized and then recasing all the crumblings with new uncolonized casing mix.

along those lines, he thought of a third option..do  50/50 casing with the 6 cakes... make it really thin, wait for full innoc, then recase, wait for full innoc, then recase, in repetition until his casing would be at least 2-3 inches deep/thick...

thanks






Why not just fruit the cakes and make spore prints to make more cakes? Less chance of failure, and greater chance of success. Your friend can get decent flushes on cakes. Tell your friend to get an internet connection.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: Sockadin]
    #18918508 - 10/01/13 09:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, if you're *just* asking about casing there is no real point, the mycilium get a negligible amount of nutrients from the casing layer so you might as well just fruit the cakes. If you're asking about expanding them into a bigger substrate then spawn them to the substrate. It's a matter of what's on top.

If you took 4 circular cakes and put them in a square shape evenly distributed on the bottom of a tub and dumped coir on it you your coir is a substrate as the mycilium will fill the gaps between each cake and likely colonize the substrate upwards until any one cake detects fruiting conditions. Depending how well they are connected this will then send the fruiting signal to the rest of the cakes as they all work together.

If you crumble up the cakes and put less than an inch or so of coir on top of them then the top layer will likely already be in fruiting conditions and thus trigger the substrate below to fruit, thus it is a casing layer. This is all a function of time and space, as well as your strains own characteristics. They're very mathematical in nature, why do you think they're called cubes?


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
    #18918677 - 10/01/13 10:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
If you crumble up the cakes and put less than an inch or so of coir on top of them then the top layer will likely already be in fruiting conditions and thus trigger the substrate below to fruit, thus it is a casing layer.



:facepalm:  No bro....please just stop.

So much bullshit in such a little post.....jeez....

The substrate will not fruit until it is fully colonized/given FAE......

The top layer has nothing to do with this, and coir is not casing layer material, even if it is less than an inch thick, it's still not casing layer material.

Not only that but that top layer is not even needed over the bulk substrate.

And layering is so 1999, mix the spawn evenly with the substrate, do not layer it....it will colonize faster and more evenly.

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
This is all a function of time and space, as well as your strains own characteristics. They're very mathematical in nature, why do you think they're called cubes?



Because it is an shorter way of saying P. Cubensis.....not because they are actually square in shape, or mathematical in any way....

They are actually pretty unpredictable when dealing with spores.....

Hence the term cubes are cubes....


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
    #18918770 - 10/01/13 10:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If you put coir on as a casing layer it will case it, if you put it in as a substrate it will be a substrate, they adapt to your environment and *you*. In 1999 people thought coir was a casing layer, thus, for them, it *was* a casing layer. Some people still use it as a casing layer and they were not wrong in 1999, most people just do it differently today. Mushrooms can eat anything, including everything that is currently used as a casing layer (what is 'topsoil' if not everything surrounding it naturally composting?). They can eat rocks, vermiculite, anything cellulose, etc. They just want to recombine primarily, so when you crumble them up as a bulk spawn they are simply traveling through the substrate to recombine, that's why the depths are important, and the spacing of the spawn.


Edited by krypto2000 (10/01/13 10:42 PM)


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
    #18918842 - 10/01/13 10:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
If you put coir on as a casing layer it will case it, if you put it in as a substrate it will be a substrate, they adapt to your environment and *you*.



Not true at all.....

A casing layer has little to no nutrients.....coir is highly nutritious....

Coir will always be a substrate material because of this.....

If you apply coir to the top of a bulk substrate, it will most likely fully colonize.

That is not something you want to happen to your casing layer.


If coir is added as a "top layer", than that is what it is, not a casing layer....there is a difference.


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InvisibleTheMaster
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: jpack666]
    #18918913 - 10/01/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

really simple newby question
my friend needed about 10 cakes for his casing, ends up with only 6...
they are brf he plans to crumble

which of the 2 would be the easiest:
1. crumble and use crumblings to re-inoculate 10 cakes (make more substrate)

Too prone to contamination. BRF is too nutritious to treat like a bulk substrate.

2. spawn the 6 cakes to a casing mix, let full innoc occur, then recrumble the full casing, and then re-case (hoping that this increases the mycelium available to fruit)

Sounds like you have some terms confused, but this technique is called superspawning and is not advisable. Again, more prone to contamination.

thanks in advance

A few bits of advice.
Spend some more time in this forum and really familiarize yourself with the terms used so you can better communicate.

PF tek cakes are best dunked and rolled in oven baked vermiculite (search dunk and roll) once they have consolidated for one week. Fruit in a SGFC (shotgun fruiting chamber).

Cup o' shrooms is another favorite. Solo cup with 1/2 inch moist vermiculite on the bottom. Crumble cake on top and sprinkle more verm to fill voids. Extra verm layer on top as a casing layer. Spray the casing daily and keep covered with a ziploc bag to retain humidity. I've seen very impressive flushes using this method, but it is most convenient because it takes up less space than a SGFC.

If you really want to spawn to bulk substrate like coir I'd start with a spawn made from red milo, rye, or wild bird seed...not brf cakes.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18919583 - 10/02/13 04:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Wait your suppose to bake your vermiculite? I always used it straight out of the bag.

           


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: Sockadin]
    #18919693 - 10/02/13 05:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sockadin said:
Wait your suppose to bake your vermiculite? I always used it straight out of the bag.

           




When I did cakes I always rolled the cakes in the verm right out of the bag with no issues


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: Stromrider]
    #18920204 - 10/02/13 09:58 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psillyshroomer said:
Quote:

Sockadin said:
Wait your suppose to bake your vermiculite? I always used it straight out of the bag.

           




When I did cakes I always rolled the cakes in the verm right out of the bag with no issues




Yes, verm straight out of the bag is pretty clean as is, has essentially zero nutrient value, and fully colonized cakes are resistant to contamination...Why risk it? There could be no issues like most people have, or a spore load I'd rather not think about waiting in there.

Not saying baked is better, but it hurts nothing and I'd hate to see a noob toss all that work away because their batch of verm had enemy spores lurking in it "right out of the bag".

Maybe I'm overly cautious, but after 6 years in this hobby I have yet to see the dreaded green trich. (knocks on wood) :mushroom2:


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18920220 - 10/02/13 10:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Vermiculite has plenty of nutrition, mushrooms can eat rocks.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
    #18920248 - 10/02/13 10:10 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I beg to differ.  Vermiculite is not nutritious.  Mushrooms might attach themselves to vermiculite, but they aren't feeding on it IMVHO.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: mpd]
    #18920320 - 10/02/13 10:28 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I did say it has essentially zero nutritional value. Vermiculite is silica based which mushrooms could really care less about. There are a few trace minerals like magnesium and iron that may be beneficial to fungi though.

What would you rather eat... a loaf of bread, or a handful of rocks (pica sufferers need not answer this)? Most fungi need carbs or lignin of some sort to metabolize, not SiO2.

If you do find silicon based life please let me know. We will win a Nobel prize for sure.

-TM


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18920437 - 10/02/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Mushrooms will eat literally anything ime, they just have preferences based on what you prepare the best, they're very similar to animals and humans. If you're locked in a room for 40 days and have nothing to eat but rocks and bread you're going to love the shit out of the bread. If you're in the room with nothing but rocks however, or you've finished the bread, you're very likely going to eat rocks, your body will adapt and begin to learn to metabolize the them (they are just minerals after all, even to humans silicon is a trace mineral), and some point you may well begin to even really enjoy the rocks, they're extremely dense in nutritional value, they're just hard for us to metabolize and thus we don't eat many of them.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
    #18920487 - 10/02/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Mushrooms will eat literally anything ime, they just have preferences based on what you prepare the best, they're very similar to animals and humans. If you're locked in a room for 40 days and have nothing to eat but rocks and bread you're going to love the shit out of the bread. If you're in the room with nothing but rocks however, or you've finished the bread, you're very likely going to eat rocks, your body will adapt and begin to learn to metabolize the them (they are just minerals after all, even to humans silicon is a trace mineral), and some point you may well begin to even really enjoy the rocks, they're extremely dense in nutritional value, they're just hard for us to metabolize and thus we don't eat many of them.




seriously krypto, are you saying the human body can adapt to be feeding off rocks?!?


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: krypto2000]
    #18920509 - 10/02/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Wow! This went from crumbling cakes to eating rocks pretty damn fast. LoL


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: spacechildo]
    #18920546 - 10/02/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Mushrooms will eat literally anything ime, they just have preferences based on what you prepare the best, they're very similar to animals and humans. If you're locked in a room for 40 days and have nothing to eat but rocks and bread you're going to love the shit out of the bread. If you're in the room with nothing but rocks however, or you've finished the bread, you're very likely going to eat rocks, your body will adapt and begin to learn to metabolize the them (they are just minerals after all, even to humans silicon is a trace mineral), and some point you may well begin to even really enjoy the rocks, they're extremely dense in nutritional value, they're just hard for us to metabolize and thus we don't eat many of them.




seriously krypto, are you saying the human body can adapt to be feeding off rocks?!?




If anyone ate only rocks for 40 days, they would 100% be dead.

It isn't that they are hard to metabolize, they don't metabolize. They are mostly insoluble and the tiny amount available to your metabolic pathways wouldn't do shit for your body as far as ATP is concerned. You need food to survive. It's not a matter of us or them not having elvolved or adapted to better process rocks.

Open a biology book and learn about how carbon based life works, because whats you are describing isn't it.


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InvisibleTheMaster
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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: tybojengles]
    #18920580 - 10/02/13 11:25 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tybojengles said:
Wow! This went from crumbling cakes to eating rocks pretty damn fast. LoL





:grin: Hahaha, to the OP, sorry, not trying to thread jack.  I should probably stop replying but I hate it with a passion when bad information gets spread.

It's always good to keep an open mind, just not so open that your brain falls out.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18920781 - 10/02/13 12:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheMaster said:
Yes, verm straight out of the bag is pretty clean as is, has essentially zero nutrient value



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Mycelium will consume and digest verm, and even plants use vermiculite as 'fertilizer'.  Verm is definitely not inert and is suitable for much more than holding water.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15641670#15641670

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Verm does have nutrients.  It's actually a pretty good bulk substrate material.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16794668#16794668

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Actually, verm does have nutrients for contaminants as well as mushroom mycelium.  Fungi digest minerals.
RR



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13665989#13665989


Quote:

TheMaster said:
Not saying baked is better, but it hurts nothing and I'd hate to see a noob toss all that work away because their batch of verm had enemy spores lurking in it "right out of the bag".



This is going to happen anyways, when you open your oven the verm instantly becomes unsterile, meaning you just wasted your time.

Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
    #18923934 - 10/02/13 11:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:

Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.




I wonder if RR collects any royalties when people reference him. I guess I'll owe him a nickel or something. :stoned:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Vermiculite feeds mycelium, both mold and mushroom mycelium, so it should be baked in an oven before use to ensure it's free of spores.  Once used, the live mycelium will take hold before any stray spores have a chance to germinate, but remember for best results to always give it a good heat treatment first.
RR




Why not make it a dime.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
If it's a brand new bag, there may not be many contaminant spores on the vermiculite, since it's manufactured at very high temperature.  However, when the bag has been open for awhile, I've had non-treated verm develop cobweb mold many times, so I always spread it out on a cookie sheet and bake at 350F to 450F for at least half an hour.  Longer if it's a thicker layer.
RR




I agree completely with RR on his point about baking verm, but not its nutritional value.
Funny that second quote from RR you referenced had a different TC chime in ever so eloquently,

Quote:

tahoe said:
Quote:

Newgrass72 said:
Can you spawn the brf cakes straight to verm?




Uh yeah, You could spawn them to anything. But why would you use straight verm?




As far as verm as a substrate is concerned I'm going to do a little experiement of my own to try and prove conclusively that there is very minimal digestion of vermiculite and it only provides trace amounts of nutrients as a substrate and is predominantly a water source. Because, well science is what I do.

As best I know fungi secrete exoenzymes to digest insoluble organic material and then absorb the nutrients that are solublized by said enzymes. First, SiO2 is sparingly soluble in anything other than hydrofluoric acid. Second, vermiculite is inorganic as evidenced by the high temp process to create it. Any change in mass off vermiculate after baking off carbon residue from spent brf cakes will be due to mycelial munchies.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Sorry, I seriously need to stop checking threads while my coffee is brewing in the morning, and wait until I've had a cup. :laugh:

I would love to be proved wrong.  I'm no scientist, but an observer.  Hopefully  this will get some folks spawning grains right into verm to test the theory. 

You could bake the verm to remove any moisture content, and then measure the two cups you'll need for five cakes and weigh it.  After several flushes, break up and dry the cakes by baking, and I'll bet you the left over mycelium, rice flour and verm won't weigh as much as the verm did at the start.
RR




This quote was taken from a thread started years ago.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9626715#9626715

"The vermiculite as a substrate issue" - started by someone other than RR who is also a TC. Clearly dissenting opinions here. I'll start a proper thread once underway so we can finally "squash the beef" as they say. :wink:


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18924032 - 10/03/13 12:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheMaster said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:

Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.




I wonder if RR collects any royalties when people reference him. I guess I'll owe him a nickel or something. :stoned:

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Vermiculite feeds mycelium, both mold and mushroom mycelium, so it should be baked in an oven before use to ensure it's free of spores.  Once used, the live mycelium will take hold before any stray spores have a chance to germinate, but remember for best results to always give it a good heat treatment first.
RR




Why not make it a dime.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
If it's a brand new bag, there may not be many contaminant spores on the vermiculite, since it's manufactured at very high temperature.  However, when the bag has been open for awhile, I've had non-treated verm develop cobweb mold many times, so I always spread it out on a cookie sheet and bake at 350F to 450F for at least half an hour.  Longer if it's a thicker layer.
RR







Fully colonized cakes are still contam resistant.

So you would be baking the verm to sterilize it, then opening the oven which will immediately make it unsterile, then roll fully colonized contam resistant cakes in it.

Yea I soo see the logic there.... :rolleyes:

No need to bake verm bro.....but it's your time wasted, not mine....

Quote RR all day if you like....I enjoy it actually....and I still say sterilizing verm is a waste of time and energy.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18924045 - 10/03/13 12:08 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheMaster said:
As far as verm as a substrate is concerned I'm going to do a little experiement of my own to try and prove conclusively that there is very minimal digestion of vermiculite and it only provides trace amounts of nutrients as a substrate and is predominantly a water source. Because, well science is what I do.

As best I know fungi secrete exoenzymes to digest insoluble organic material and then absorb the nutrients that are solublized by said enzymes. First, SiO2 is sparingly soluble in anything other than hydrofluoric acid. Second, vermiculite is inorganic as evidenced by the high temp process to create it. Any change in mass off vermiculate after baking off carbon residue from spent brf cakes will be due to mycelial munchies.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Sorry, I seriously need to stop checking threads while my coffee is brewing in the morning, and wait until I've had a cup. :laugh:

I would love to be proved wrong.  I'm no scientist, but an observer.  Hopefully  this will get some folks spawning grains right into verm to test the theory. 

You could bake the verm to remove any moisture content, and then measure the two cups you'll need for five cakes and weigh it.  After several flushes, break up and dry the cakes by baking, and I'll bet you the left over mycelium, rice flour and verm won't weigh as much as the verm did at the start.
RR




This quote was taken from a thread started years ago.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9626715#9626715

"The vermiculite as a substrate issue" - started by someone other than RR who is also a TC. Clearly dissenting opinions here. I'll start a proper thread once underway so we can finally "squash the beef" as they say. :wink:



Research "Rez Effect"

The trace minerals found in verm are enough.

Mycellium digests minerals....so yes it digests verm.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
    #18924161 - 10/03/13 01:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, agreed verm acts as a reservoir of moisture for the fruit bodies, but tiny amounts of iron and magnesium does not a substrate make. You need carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous etc. If anything verm should be considered a multi-tasking substrate ammendment because it provides water, textured porosity and micronutrients.

I have been a "lurker"  for a very long time here so I'm already well aware of most teks, and people's eagerness to go off quoting RR without ever really doing too much critical thinking for themselves. He's knows his stuff, but no one is infallible. I'd like to see the data, and if there isn't any yet, there will be once I'm done.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18924173 - 10/03/13 01:13 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheMaster said:
Yes, agreed verm acts as a reservoir of moisture for the fruit bodies, but tiny amounts of iron and magnesium does not a substrate make.



Tell that to all the paople that have tried it.

Like I said research Rez Effect and you will amaze yourself...and maybe learn something.

The data is all right there in the search function.

Many people have spawned cakes/grains to just verm and got great results.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
    #18924242 - 10/03/13 01:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Fully colonized cakes are still contam resistant.

So you would be baking the verm to sterilize it, then opening the oven which will immediately make it unsterile, then roll fully colonized contam resistant cakes in it.

Yea I soo see the logic there.... :rolleyes:

No need to bake verm bro.....but it's your time wasted, not mine....

Quote RR all day if you like....I enjoy it actually....and I still say sterilizing verm is a waste of time and energy.




I do my oven prep mostly to satisfy a need for clean, even though the cakes are less prone to contamination once colonized. Destroying spores I might have floating around later or in abundance pressed against my substrate makes me feel like I'm doing something at least... Haha

I'll have to give it a shot with some pf cakes and cased grain too "right out of the bag".

I know the rez effect and totally agree. Add water laden verm to sub and mushrooms that are 90% water have badass flushes, it makes sense. It is the idea of verm as food that I believe is wrong and have yet to see any conclusive data. RR believes that the end result is somehow greater than the sum of its parts. It just doesn't add up.


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: TheMaster]
    #18924296 - 10/03/13 02:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

When I first started growing mushrooms I was doing cakes. I probably rolled a total of about 50 cakes in verm. I never once baked the verm and I never had any trouble with contams before the 3rd or 4th flush


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: mpd]
    #18924834 - 10/03/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mpd said:
I beg to differ.  Vermiculite is not nutritious.  Mushrooms might attach themselves to vermiculite, but they aren't feeding on it IMVHO.




This is flat-out wrong. Check your facts before posting opinion based on limited knowledge as fact.

Fungi evolved before plants.  Exactly what do you think they were feeding on besides solid rock with energy supplied from the sun?

Every noob who has ever grown brf cakes through a few flushes has watched them shrink by 50% or more.  Since they're 2/3 vermiculite, exactly what do you think is being consumed if it's not the minerals?

If as you(wrongly) assume that fungi isn't digesting rock, exactly why do growers report increased benefits such as vigor and harvest weight from using vermiculite, calcium carbonate, and gypsum?
RR


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
    #18924876 - 10/03/13 08:07 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:

This is going to happen anyways, when you open your oven the verm instantly becomes unsterile, meaning you just wasted your time.

Fully colonized cakes are contam resistant, so baking verm in the first place is just silly.




No, not baking the verm before rolling cakes in it is just plain silly.

Vermiculite has food for fungi, whether you understand the process or not.  Vermiculite also holds a ton of water, so the humidity in a room can partly hydrate it. I've seen damp bags of pure vermiculite with cobweb mold covering the entire surface.

By baking the verm before use, you kill off the billions of unwanted fungi and other contaminants which have settled on it since it left the furnaces at the manufacturing plant.  Of course, whatever lands on the verm after baking and before harvest will have a chance to grow, but the idea is to reduce the spore load before using so the mushroom mycelium has a window of opportunity to fruit before trichoderma or other molds take hold of the damp verm and grow instead.
RR


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Re: not enough cakes to case [Re: PussyFart]
    #18924903 - 10/03/13 08:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There was a quote from RR floating around that basically states that using Verm as a 100% casing material can be done, but is not recommended.

Vermiculite is a rock.  It is a stone that is heated to about 1200c, and it causes it to expand and fall apart into the form we get it.  This is well over 2000f. 

Per Vermiculite.org vermiculite is inert.  They are experts on vermiculite, while we are just end users.  Does mycelium dissolve vermiculite?  It is possible.  Mycelium dissolves aluminum also, but that does not mean that it there is a added benefit of adding empty cans. 

The benefit of vermiculite is that it absorbs water AND any minerals absorbed into the water.  Because of the way it is formed, it can hold quite a bit of material.  It is a "filler" that we add to cakes and bulk that is not an immediate threat of contamination that holds quite a bit of fluid AND has a high CEC (cation exchange capacity). 

Vermiculite is a rock.  This is a fact.  After that it is mostly speculation.  Some users insist that because they see a smaller mass of verm after a grow, it obviously has been consumed.  I think that it has more to do with the vermiculite being compressed by the hydraulic force of the mycelum.  Mushrooms will push bricks out of the way outdoors, so why can't they squeeze water out of verm?

Pinch some verm in your fingers.  Its soft.  Dry wash it in-between your  hands.  It crumbles.


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