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Invisiblepsi
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18915954 - 10/01/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

psi said:
Better compensation makes for happier workers who do better work,



That's not universally true at all.  Raising pay doesn't always increase productivity and can even lower it.  In addition, there is the axiom that if you "pay a man a million on Monday, and by Friday he'll think he's worth it."



Yes, obviously high pay alone is not enough to achieve that, you also need to cut people who aren't pulling their weight. That's where a lot of unions fail, they protect their members even when they suck.


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Shins]
    #18915955 - 10/01/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Uzziel said:
Are any of your posts here not about fucking people over who deserve a bit more than they are paid and encouraging people to get fucked over?





Nobody deserves more than you are paid.  You are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you.  If you feel you aren't getting paid enough, go negotiate a higher wage with the competition.




Nobody huh? What happens when the competition is driven off by the monopoly?

I personally think humanity is worth more than what "someone else" determines... but hey, you can think whatever cynical thought you want.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel] * 1
    #18915959 - 10/01/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
I personally think humanity is worth more than what "someone else" determines... but hey, you can think whatever cynical thought you want.




So start your own company and pay them more.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineqman
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Patlal]
    #18915962 - 10/01/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Why don't we just kill everybody that makes less than 30k per year?




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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18915971 - 10/01/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Semantics.  Paying someone less than you owe them is no different from taking money away from them.



The amount 'owed' is not a fixed sum. If a corporation changes its policies, and these polices then go on to change the amount owed to shareholders, than the corporation is continuing to give what is owed--not less, not more.



What is always owed is a duty to maximize profits.  Making decisions that result in a reduction of profits to the shareholders is giving them less than is owed.

Shareholders give money to the corporation so that the corporation can succeed.  In exchange, the corporation owes them a fiduciary duty to maximize the return on their investment....otherwise, the corporation is just taking the shareholder's money and screwing them over.




and without gov't intervention, the company holding closest to this ideal would be the one with an enslaved workforce, zero environmental regulations, zero health and safety regulations..

financial gain for a minority group as the number one prerogative is flawed reasoning--and is not some incontrovertible law of physics or something--this concept can be changed

a return on investment is fine to expect--but maximum return? nope, sorry


--------------------


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18915977 - 10/01/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Uzziel said:
I personally think humanity is worth more than what "someone else" determines... but hey, you can think whatever cynical thought you want.




So start your own company and pay them more.




:thumbup:


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18915979 - 10/01/13 12:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Uzziel said:
I personally think humanity is worth more than what "someone else" determines... but hey, you can think whatever cynical thought you want.




So start your own company and pay them more.




Its hard to make a profit when there is a near monopoly on it with only a few big competitors. I also don't have the fund to do so, or I would.

Small groceries have been forced out of business all across the world for this exact reason.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18915990 - 10/01/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
a return on investment is fine to expect--but maximum return? nope, sorry



When faced with a choice between an investment that promises maximum return and another investment that promises a fair return, which do you think most investors will choose?


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18915994 - 10/01/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Plutocrqcy at its finest.


Why pay your employees a livable wage when you can make the government subsidize their food and housing?

Then you get the added benefit of being able to blame poor people for the government's shortcomings.


--------------------


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InvisibleShins
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18915995 - 10/01/13 12:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

Uzziel said:
Are any of your posts here not about fucking people over who deserve a bit more than they are paid and encouraging people to get fucked over?





Nobody deserves more than you are paid.  You are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you.  If you feel you aren't getting paid enough, go negotiate a higher wage with the competition.




Nobody huh? What happens when the competition is driven off by the monopoly?

I personally think humanity is worth more than what "someone else" determines... but hey, you can think whatever cynical thought you want.




Monopolies are created by government legislation.  Malicious Monopolies don't happen in a free market.


The universe is a cold and harsh place, I wish everyone could live in rainbow candy land too but the laws of nature dictate that these harsh realities are unavoidable.

the world is a terrible, harsh and unforgiving place kid, you'd best adapt or die.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18916010 - 10/01/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There are always going to be niches not filled by the big players. Personally I'd love to be able to hook up friends and relatives with good jobs. There are all kinds of people who are great workers, but not great at navigating all the recruitment bullshit of the corporate world. Their potential is wasted when nobody is willing to cut them a break and give them a chance to show their hustle.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18916013 - 10/01/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Its hard to make a profit when there is a near monopoly on it with only a few big competitors. I also don't have the fund to do so, or I would.




I see. So you'd force others to do what you won't do.

How magnanimous of you.


Quote:

Small groceries have been forced out of business all across the world for this exact reason.




And because payroll costs are too high. Many businesses struggle to stay open. You'd force them to close?

Seems like a job that pays something is better than no job at all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18916015 - 10/01/13 12:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
a return on investment is fine to expect--but maximum return? nope, sorry



When faced with a choice between an investment that promises maximum return and another investment that promises a fair return, which do you think most investors will choose?



and this is why a free market should not exist in a capitalistic system.


"without gov't intervention, the company holding closest to this ideal would be the one with an enslaved workforce, zero environmental regulations, zero health and safety regulations.."

paying employees a salary? that's taking money out of the pockets of innocent shareholders--they are owed maximized returns on their investment!!! :luvdemshrooms:


--------------------


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OfflineUzziel
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #18916029 - 10/01/13 12:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Uzziel said:
Its hard to make a profit when there is a near monopoly on it with only a few big competitors. I also don't have the fund to do so, or I would.




I see. So you'd force others to do what you won't do.

How magnanimous of you.


Quote:

Small groceries have been forced out of business all across the world for this exact reason.




And because payroll costs are too high. Many businesses struggle to stay open. You'd force them to close?

Seems like a job that pays something is better than no job at all.





Nope, never said that at all. It is exactly why I would never open a grocery store because Walmart has a huge monopoly on it and isn't being regulated like it should be. You just proved my point, really. Walmart is bad for other business's who would offer to pay workers better.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18916038 - 10/01/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
paying employees a salary? that's taking money out of the pockets of innocent shareholders--they are owed maximized returns on their investment!!! :luvdemshrooms:



False dichotomy.  The alternative to paying employees a salary is to not have employees.  This is an inherent limit to company growth, and therefore profit.  One can only find so many volunteers.

You seem to be arguing that a free market is flawed, but you're using examples that are anything but a free market.  A free market includes workers who are free to charge as much or as little as they want for their services.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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Offlineqman
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Shins] * 2
    #18916036 - 10/01/13 12:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism is good when MANY have access to capital, but today that has changed for the worst, guess who mainly has access to capital, the very wealthy.

Under these conditions, capitalism turns into a ugly situation that is very difficult to turn around.

I'm not against capitalism, but it has changed in the past 25 years, and mainly the past 10 years, if anyone was intellectually honest about the situation, they would admit its recent failures.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18916049 - 10/01/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If government would just get out of the way, Walmart could impose their own wages and business practices to maximize their profits.

If the employees dont like it, they can start their own fortune 500 company.


--------------------


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Offlineganjfather
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18916055 - 10/01/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

And people are always crying, "you're such a terrible, horrible person for stealing from walmart".


:rolleyes:


--------------------


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #18916057 - 10/01/13 12:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
If government would just get out of the way, Walmart could impose their own wages and business practices to maximize their profits.



AND workers could negotiate pay rates based on their needs/skills.

As it is now, a guy who has zero skills and is willing to work for $4/hour doesn't have that option.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #18916071 - 10/01/13 12:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
If government would just get out of the way, Walmart could impose their own wages and business practices to maximize their profits.



AND workers could negotiate pay rates based on their needs/skills.

As it is now, a guy who has zero skills and is willing to work for $4/hour doesn't have that option.




Right, Walmart has been union friendly all along.


--------------------


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