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OfflineUzziel
O_o


Registered: 12/30/10
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18915862 - 10/01/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Raking in 7 billion+ in profit is living in poverty? You have an obscure definition of poor.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18915865 - 10/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Its so bad that I want better for millions in poverty compared to a handful of people? Wow.




No, it's not bad that you want better for them

What's bad is you wanting to force others to take actions that are against their wishes and best interests.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18915866 - 10/01/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

it should be easy to understand that no amount of hard work will raise everyone out of poverty--not the way the system currently works

capitalism requires the labour of folks on the bottom to enrich the folks on the top--we are told to compete against each other on an individual basis--that we will in turn be rewarded for all our work--but there's not enough space at the top for all of us, not matter how hard we all work

'work harder/start your own business' is merely a euphemism for 'find your own workforce to exploit'--and no pyramid scheme can go on expanding forever


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18915869 - 10/01/13 12:04 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

You do love your strawman arguments, kid.

Greed is what drives us as a species.  You need to get used to that.  Otherwise, you're just going to be miserable.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18915871 - 10/01/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Raking in 7 billion+ in profit is living in poverty? You have an obscure definition of poor.




Which one of Walmarts stockholders raked in 7 billion+ in profit?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18915883 - 10/01/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
For you and I, we can spend an extra $1,000 for the fuck of it and it costs only that $1,000...and it only impacts US negatively.  For a corporation, they're taking money out of putting less money in someone else's pocket to do so, and it's an ongoing expense.



fixed that for you


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18915889 - 10/01/13 12:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Semantics.  Paying someone less than you owe them is no different from taking money away from them.


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OfflineUzziel
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Registered: 12/30/10
Posts: 11,689
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18915890 - 10/01/13 12:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Uzziel said:
Raking in 7 billion+ in profit is living in poverty? You have an obscure definition of poor.




Which one of Walmarts stockholders raked in 7 billion+ in profit?




I never said an individual.

This argument is pretty much over, you guys are gonna think what you want regardless as am I. Especially with Enlil trying to get his point across with insults.

:shrug:

Enjoy.


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OfflinePatlal
You ask too many questions
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Registered: 10/09/10
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18915893 - 10/01/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Why don't we just kill everybody that makes less than 30k per year?


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Offlineleon trout
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: something super extreme]
    #18915894 - 10/01/13 12:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sVs said:
Do any arguments against Wal-Mart's lurid profit margins not revolve around them giving away money basically just because they make too much of it?.




yes, if you quit being a cynical bastard... by paying their employees more, they would make a little less... this is not giving away money, money was never there to be given... the only thing being given in this scenario is a chance for the workers... considering someone's "projected profit" as "actual money" is crazy... considering healthy, well-paid employees part of a healthy, well-organized company is humane... i can get behind humane...


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I read somewhere that 77 per cent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I’m more intrigued by the 23 per cent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves.” 
  ~ St. Jerome of Marin
:gd_icon:the bus come by & i got on, that's when it all began:gd_icon:



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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Uzziel]
    #18915903 - 10/01/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Are any of your posts here not about fucking people over who deserve a bit more than they are paid and encouraging people to get fucked over?





Nobody deserves more than you are paid.  You are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you.  If you feel you aren't getting paid enough, go negotiate a higher wage with the competition.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Patlal]
    #18915904 - 10/01/13 12:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Patlal said:
Why don't we just kill everybody that makes less than 30k per year?




Who would tend to the needs of the rich overlords?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18915906 - 10/01/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Greed is what drives us as a species.  You need to get used to that.  Otherwise, you're just going to be miserable.



You need to look into research on biological altruism--human nature is nowhere near as black and white as you seem to believe.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/08/is-human-nature-fundamentally-selfish-or-altruistic/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304213904579093173306431860.html


--------------------


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18915912 - 10/01/13 12:16 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
'work harder/start your own business' is merely a euphemism for 'find your own workforce to exploit'--and no pyramid scheme can go on expanding forever




You don't necessarily have to go that route though, some businesses compensate their workers a lot better than others while still making the owners enough to stay comfortable. Better compensation makes for happier workers who do better work, so turnover is greatly reduced and everyone wins. Then you have worker owned cooperatives, where making money for the owners and the workers is the same thing.


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Offlinenicechrisman
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Registered: 11/07/03
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: psi]
    #18915917 - 10/01/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I actually work for an employee owned business.


--------------------
"Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent:
it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not."

John C. Lily

 


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: Enlil]
    #18915922 - 10/01/13 12:19 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Semantics.  Paying someone less than you owe them is no different from taking money away from them.



The amount 'owed' is not a fixed sum. If a corporation changes its policies, and these polices then go on to change the amount owed to shareholders, than the corporation is continuing to give what is owed--not less, not more.


--------------------


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: psi]
    #18915934 - 10/01/13 12:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Better compensation makes for happier workers who do better work,



That's not universally true at all.  Raising pay doesn't always increase productivity and can even lower it.  In addition, there is the axiom that if you "pay a man a million on Monday, and by Friday he'll think he's worth it."

There is a sweet spot where productivity per dollar spent is maximized, and in the context of a corporation which has a duty to maximize profits for its owners, that sweet spot is where employee pay should strive to stay.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #18915937 - 10/01/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Semantics.  Paying someone less than you owe them is no different from taking money away from them.



The amount 'owed' is not a fixed sum. If a corporation changes its policies, and these polices then go on to change the amount owed to shareholders, than the corporation is continuing to give what is owed--not less, not more.



What is always owed is a duty to maximize profits.  Making decisions that result in a reduction of profits to the shareholders is giving them less than is owed.

Shareholders give money to the corporation so that the corporation can succeed.  In exchange, the corporation owes them a fiduciary duty to maximize the return on their investment....otherwise, the corporation is just taking the shareholder's money and screwing them over.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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InvisibleShins
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: qman]
    #18915944 - 10/01/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Uzziel said:
Are any of your posts here not about fucking people over who deserve a bit more than they are paid and encouraging people to get fucked over?





Nobody deserves more than you are paid.  You are worth exactly what someone is willing to pay you.  If you feel you aren't getting paid enough, go negotiate a higher wage with the competition.
Quote:

Uzziel said:
Wanting a living wage is stupid svs?

That is interesting, you have some backwards logic



Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Shins said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Shins said:
A low minimum wage is good.  It allows low value workers to be employed.

otherwise they are priced out of the market.




Let me ask you, if we used that line of reasoning, what makes you think that low-skilled labor in the US is anymore valuable than that of China?

If not, the only way low skilled labor in the US is going to get employed again (real unemployment rate is 23-24%), is to directly compete with the wage costs (China is .50-$1.50 per hour)

So you suggest that US citizens drive to work and make $2-3 per hour for the sake of working?  That is what a real "free" market brings to the table.





I'm fine with that.  If you can only produce $2 worth of work would I pay you $10?

If All you can produce is $2 youd better check yourself

the Alternative is that i dont hire you at all and you end up making $0

would you rather make $1.50 or $0?




"I'm fine with that (US workers making $2 per hour)."

Really, do you really think living in a society where low-skilled workers earn $16 dollars a day is going to be a fun place to live?

My grandparents were low-skilled labor their wholes lifes, they accumulated vast sums of wealth, owned their homes, cars, savings and investments, no debt, paid college tuition for their children, and left a large inheritance.

They didn't compete with a global workforce, the companies didn't ship work overseas, they enjoyed the fruits of a strong economy that benefited everyone, not just the few at the top.




youre misding the pount.

If All you can produce in value as a worker is $2 the only wage I can offer you without going bankrupt myself is ~$1.50.

your options are get paid $16 per day or have no job get paid nothing.

understand?

them inimum wage renders every worker who cannot produce more than that in value unemployed.

If Minimum wage is $10 and you can only produce $9 of work for me I'm going to fire you sorry and then you will make $0.  I would have happily hired you for $8 an hour but its against the law so I'm forced to fire you instead sorry.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: R U OK with this? [Re: psi]
    #18915945 - 10/01/13 12:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
'work harder/start your own business' is merely a euphemism for 'find your own workforce to exploit'--and no pyramid scheme can go on expanding forever




You don't necessarily have to go that route though, some businesses compensate their workers a lot better than others while still making the owners enough to stay comfortable. Better compensation makes for happier workers who do better work, so turnover is greatly reduced and everyone wins. Then you have worker owned cooperatives, where making money for the owners and the workers is the same thing.


You're definitely correct on the worker owned coops.

I take a fairly hard line approach to the issue--though I agree that some employers are able to treat their workers better than others--to provide them with decent living/working conditions--I see the basis of the owner/worker relationship to be the owner compensating the worker for less than the value of their work, and pocketing the difference--which fits my definition of exploitation.


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