|
PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18910970 - 09/30/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
r72rock said: I feel that anyone can readjust their lenses with a new world view, and find evidence for it. I mean, it could be true, but that's totally jumping to a conclusion, and of course, your findings would be be rationalized to fit into this new world view and it'll be affirmed. I'm not saying it's false exactly, I'm just saying, people tend to convince themselves of lots of things.
Trying to narrow a whole lot of human activities into one motive can be short sighted. Things seems to be too complex to have it boiled down to one drive. I'm not denying DA either, but I'm just saying if you look out into the world with that one scope, you'll find things for it and rationalize them to fall into place that way too. I just think we should be skeptical of reductionist views.
This has kind of been my thought process today. It's just one way of looking at the world and there are many others. In fact my perspective seems to be ever changing and it's something I'm very aware of and actually quite happy about. Maybe DA isn't the be all and end all, or maybe it is. It certainly seems to influence human behaviour a lot, but there is room for other concurrent perspectives I'm sure.
I'm fairly certain DA is the underlying fear of most humans (and animals), but it's probably not our only motivation in life. As you say, it's more complicated than that.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
|
LSDXM
What Doth Life?



Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 2,505
Loc: The 518
Last seen: 7 months, 13 days
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18910972 - 09/30/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
PocketLady your signature is my avatar
--------------------
The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18911052 - 09/30/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think you have an interesting idea for a thread and continued discussion of this issue. Maybe you can start it with some theories of what fears cannot be likely traced to DA at core.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,891
Last seen: 3 hours, 41 minutes
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
#18911198 - 09/30/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Krash Kharma said:
Quote:
Kickle said: It may be that we feel pain and try to avoid it just to feel pain and avoid it, and not because it keeps us alive. I just don't see much sense in that view 
It makes more sense to you, that we avoid pain because of the abstract fear of death, than that we avoid it because it hurts?
Existential crises are extremely personal experiences, not broad-scale. They may be innate/potential in everyone, but not everyone is experiencing an existential crisis. Everyone, however, feels pain (except of course people born with various mutations from the norm). Everyone generally agrees that pain is unpleasant (except of course for those who get off on it, or again, don't feel pain).
I feel like going any further and actually try to explain to you why people inherently are driven to avoid what hurts them would be insulting to everyone's intelligence.
Next time you cut yourself, realize that you have the choice to do it again immediately if you choose, even deeper if you want to, shit, you could cut off a whole finger if you felt like it, and think to yourself, "am I going to clean this instead of jamming a knife further into it, because I'm scared of death, or because of how badly it hurts?"
nope, that's not what I said. re-read what I wrote. I never said anything about an abstract fear of death. You're twisting a simple concept into something complex. I said we might feel pain just to feel pain, but that it doesn't make sense to me in that way. what does make sense is that our bodies have the ability to feel pain because it helps to keep us alive, or said another way, to keep us from dying.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18911292 - 09/30/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Now I'm not ready to totally agree with Becker that death anxiety cannot under any circumstances be overcome. However it is very very rare indeed and the only evidence for it I have ever seen and believe is in the terminally ill. Those very close to death. I do wonder about this and what the process is and why when we are very close to our actual end is it that our death anxiety can be made to possibly lessen dramatically? (it could be an energy issue)
It is quite common to hear about people accepting their own death when they believe it to be certain -- plane crash survivors, for example, or near-drowning victims will report that they were "overcome by a calm feeling of acceptance." It seems to be common across cultures as well. One possible explanation might be that it's advantageous, in terms of evolution, for us to NOT PANIC in dangerous situations. Our ancestors who weren't blinded by fear and confused by panic during traumatic events were more likely to survive. This might also fit with the fact that many people who had so-called "near-death experiences" weren't actually in danger of dying.
Maybe.
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: NetDiver]
#18911678 - 09/30/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I honestly don't fear death, not after the OBEs, the noticing of the dreamlike or illusory nature of life and the experiences that revealed the utter strangeness of this dream, illusion or circumstance.
But especially not after the OBEs.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
|
PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18911697 - 09/30/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: I think you have an interesting idea for a thread and continued discussion of this issue. Maybe you can start it with some theories of what fears cannot be likely traced to DA at core. 
Well my first thought is to say something like social anxiety, although I may well be missing something. I can't immediately see how that is directly linked to death anxiety, but I can see that perhaps self-confidence is a means of protecting against and avoiding DA. People with high self-esteem are general much less anxious and fearful in general.
The other thing I'm questioning is whether fear is the motivator for everything we do. I mean as animals obviously our biggest instinct is to survive and continue the species, but we are also different to the rest of the animals kingdom. We are self-conscious which perhaps makes us more aware of death than other animals, but we also have the ability to create. For those of us who are lucky enough to be comfortable and have our basic needs met, we can afford to spend our time creating, learning, exploring. I really don't want to accept that that is just us trying to bury our heads in the sand and avoiding the inevitable.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
|
PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
#18911712 - 09/30/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Krash Kharma said: PocketLady your signature is my avatar 
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18911917 - 09/30/13 04:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Well my first thought is to say something like social anxiety, although I may well be missing something. I can't immediately see how that is directly linked to death anxiety I can easily see a possible link. For early man and beyond being accepted in the group was a matter of survival. Without that acceptance one was dead meat. Social anxiety might well have it's roots in that. I'm pretty sure Becker covered this in his books.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18911962 - 09/30/13 04:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yep I guess that makes perfect sense now I think about it.
Meh, maybe I'm just in denial. I don't really like the implications of this if true.
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18912031 - 09/30/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
no one does. If it's true then humanity is exactly what it seems to be.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Grapefruit]
#18912073 - 09/30/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way.. I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being. I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills. Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way. The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....
All that stuff, worrying about medical bills, future pain/discomfort, looking to religion and so on, is only a surface level reaction to DA IMO. That stuff varies from person to person a lot, but what's inside is most likely the same for everyone, what the schizo's and trippers and meth heads see and that is truly a hidden cauldron of madness, with all kinds of venomous, fanged and foreign, even alien creatures waiting to cut out your insides, those "cold grinding grizzly bear jaws hot on your heels".
Well I'm sure there are some of the same features with cortisol and adrenaline on a neurological level, but also many other different ones that contribute to the different manifestations... I don't think morbid schizophrenic/meth hallucinations are precisely the same. It also seems we absolutely love and live for a bit of death stress in the right circumstances where we feel safe but can give up a little control (horror films, roller coasters, NDEs on psychedelics).
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
#18912083 - 09/30/13 04:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
circastes said: I honestly don't fear death, not after the OBEs, the noticing of the dreamlike or illusory nature of life and the experiences that revealed the utter strangeness of this dream, illusion or circumstance.
But especially not after the OBEs.
What is your experience with OBEs?
I only had 2, one stemmed from a sleep paralysis and the other a lucid dream. Both times I felt the OBE realm to be sketchy and disturbing, not something that felt too good.
--------------------
|
Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18912352 - 09/30/13 06:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
CosmicJoke said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
CosmicJoke said: We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way.. I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being. I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills. Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way. The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....
All that stuff, worrying about medical bills, future pain/discomfort, looking to religion and so on, is only a surface level reaction to DA IMO. That stuff varies from person to person a lot, but what's inside is most likely the same for everyone, what the schizo's and trippers and meth heads see and that is truly a hidden cauldron of madness, with all kinds of venomous, fanged and foreign, even alien creatures waiting to cut out your insides, those "cold grinding grizzly bear jaws hot on your heels".
Well I'm sure there are some of the same features with cortisol and adrenaline on a neurological level, but also many other different ones that contribute to the different manifestations... I don't think morbid schizophrenic/meth hallucinations are precisely the same. It also seems we absolutely love and live for a bit of death stress in the right circumstances where we feel safe but can give up a little control (horror films, roller coasters, NDEs on psychedelics).
I don't think I would classify schizophrenia or meth psychosis as a result of death anxiety. Speaking first hand, you will still be hallucinating at a comparable intensity if you aren't anxious.
And I agree that schizophrenic delusions and amphetamine psychosis delusions aren't the same, but I have had multiple schizophrenics tell me they feel very similar.
|
r72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.




Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1,327
Loc: Chicago
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady]
#18913948 - 09/30/13 11:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PocketLady said: This has kind of been my thought process today. It's just one way of looking at the world and there are many others. In fact my perspective seems to be ever changing and it's something I'm very aware of and actually quite happy about. Maybe DA isn't the be all and end all, or maybe it is. It certainly seems to influence human behaviour a lot, but there is room for other concurrent perspectives I'm sure.
I'm fairly certain DA is the underlying fear of most humans (and animals), but it's probably not our only motivation in life. As you say, it's more complicated than that.
Right. It may be, it may not be. I do believe it influences human behavior, which is why I've loved this subject since it was introduced to me, but I don't think it's the only motivation.
You said that Death Anxiety is an underlying fear in humans and animals, but what other animals, besides us, have death anxiety? I believe this raises the question of what Death Anxiety is in the first place, because my form of anxiety is more complex (not more anxiety ridden, just more complex) than an animal's form. I feel that our definition of Death Anxiety is too broad if we lump all animals into one category because we (as humans) have more complex brains than most animals.
I want to try now and define death anxiety. 
I see death anxiety in two forms: the existential form and the biological form.
An animal's reaction to a life or death situation can be similar to mine. We can use the example a car coming towards us. There's an immediate reaction that kicks in, and that takes over my body.
This is something that's biologically built into us. That's who we are -- animals. I would call this the biological form.
But can an animal think about the existential implications of Death Anxiety? Can a cat contemplate non-existence? I feel that the cat can't abstractly think about something like non existence. And as it's been said many a times on this board, Death Anxiety could just as easily be called impermanence anxiety (which is what death implies), and what really shakes us about impermanence is the unknown. I guess we could then also say that it's "anxiety of the unknown."
Therefore, I'd say a cat doesn't have the existential form. It'll only have the biological form, where as I on the other hand, can experience both forms.
I also think about times that I don't have death anxiety in the existential form. Like when I'm in deep sleep, or if I'm relaxing in the sun. I guess it could be argued that it is my motivation for doing that activity, but I'm not anxious about death during the activity, so what's the problem?
I'm also going to attack your claim that Death Anxiety is the underlying fear. As I said earlier, I don't think that this is the underlying motivation for everything in life, but I also don't think it's an underlying fear for everything.
Think back to being a kid. Were there fears before the concept of death was known? Of course. Becker even talks about this in his book. He talks about how kids acquire the knowledge of death and how it shapes their world view. To me, this shows that this existential fear is something that's learned. I feel that people can learn to tie all their fears to Death Anxiety, and because of this, I don't believe that this is the underlying fear of everything.
From hearing testimonies from people who were dying, in the cases of those who are terminally ill, I do think Death Anxiety can be overcome, and for the reasons that I posted. I'm not sure though... I guess I'll have to wait and see. I haven't overcome it, but it's a work in progress. I feel it's wrong to assume though that:
A.) It motives all B.) It's an underlying fear of all our fears
An interesting question that I've also had about Death Anxiety is how can we know what death anxiety is (and point to it in all these cases) if we didn't know what not having death anxiety is? How could we point it out if it's all we knew? I feel the only reason we can point out Death Anxiety in certain cases is because we know what it's like to not have Death Anxiety as well.
-------------------- Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18914013 - 10/01/13 12:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
If DA were not the underlying cause of our anxieties what do you think is and why?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
#18914045 - 10/01/13 12:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I think you should take a closer look at monkeys. Baboons spend about 3hrs a day getting their calories, and spend 9 hours of their free time every day to making each other miserable. They are not being stressed by lions chasing them all the time, they're being stressed by each other and the social and psychological tumult invented by their own species. They're a perfect model for Western stress related disease.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
#18914064 - 10/01/13 12:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
any good links to this idea?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
EternalCowabunga said:
Quote:
circastes said: I honestly don't fear death, not after the OBEs, the noticing of the dreamlike or illusory nature of life and the experiences that revealed the utter strangeness of this dream, illusion or circumstance.
But especially not after the OBEs.
What is your experience with OBEs?
I only had 2, one stemmed from a sleep paralysis and the other a lucid dream. Both times I felt the OBE realm to be sketchy and disturbing, not something that felt too good.
I've had hundreds, most spontaneous, as in I just wake up with the opportunity to exit, sorta sleep paralysis. There seem to be many different types of OBEs or realms. Some are pretty bizarre and definitely don't feel so good. But there are some that while seeming bizarre have a glimmer of mystery and strange familiarity, and generally do feel good. These good ones involve 'fear tests' or something like a demon will present itself to you, if you just acknowledge them as fear tests you can exit the body. Very strange, I don't know how or why it's like that, seems we're in a construct... but these places seem like extensions of this reality, ie. a broader reality, that there's more to it all than this.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
|
CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
|
Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
#18914095 - 10/01/13 12:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Hope you'll find this interesting.
Edit:
Maybe all the alpha males ancestors in that doc The Enlightened Ones you once linked died off from some sort of disease
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
Edited by CosmicJoke (10/01/13 12:49 AM)
|
|