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Offlinehihihi1717
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No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong?
    #18910586 - 09/30/13 09:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hey guys,

In the middle of mycelial growth stage right now with some cubensis on BRF cakes. There were 11 jars to start, and we set them in the closet, lids on and up, covered with tin foil with a heater for 3 days. We decided to take off the tin foil, flip them upside down, and we checked them 15 hours later, to discover our temperature was somewhere between 86 and 89 degrees Farenheit, and that 5 jars had become contaminated with a dark brown mold that I assume is a penicillin mold (anyone able to correct?).

Anyways, this was the first batch we ever did, and I'm not too optimistic about the other 6 jars since there was no mycelial growth in them at all when we did our check where we found the contaminated jars.

I used an extra cup of water in the mixing bowl prior to sterilization (3.5 instead of 2.5) because the substrate was not evenly moisturized and was clumped in some areas and dry and loose in others, so I'm wondering if this extra water was too much.

Our pressure cooker only gets to 248 degrees Farenheit and 80 kPa, which is roughly 11.6 psi. We cooked every jar for a total of two hours and did two batches.

On the first batch, inoculation was done about 1 hour after sterilization was completed, and the jars were left in the cooker. The jars were very warm to the touch while we sterilized, but they weren't necessarily hot. Could this temperature have killed the spores immediately upon inoculation?

On the second batch, we left the jars in the cooker after sterilization for roughly 8 hours. we took the lid off and let them sit for 20 minutes to become room temperature, then inoculated them extremely fast in a room we hadn't sterilized because we were running out of time (long story). The second batch had 1 jar that had a light brown goo on top of the lids, under the tin foil, and I assume that somehow the pressure cooking got the substrate all gunked up, but I can't be certain. This jar was one of the contaminated 5, along with one other jar from the not-so-sterile room (there were 4 jars in that batch, and 7 in the first in a sterilized bathroom). I did remember to use distilled water for the jars (and even used it for the pressure cooker water)

Prior to inoculation, a flame was used to sterilize the needle in both batches.

1cc of spore solution was inoculated into each jar (.9 actually since we had 11 jars). We experimented with 2 jars having 2 holes on the lid, 2 with 3 holes and 6 with 4 holes.

The jars were put into a clear, plastic tub with a non-airtight lid, and were covered in blankets in a closet with a heater in it (see above for details on jar positioning and temperature).

So, assuming the spores I have are legit (they're from a reputable source), what could be my issue? Am I worrying too soon, since it had only been 15 hours after flipping the jars and removing the tin foil when I last checked them? Have I used too much water? Did the temperature during inoculation kill the spores? Was the temperature in the closet too high? Were my conditions not sterile enough? Is my pressure cooker too weak to sterilize completely/did I not compensate by cooking the substrate for double the duration recommended at 250 degrees Fahrenheit and 15 psi? Any other ideas? I'm very bummed out about 5/11 jars going bad within hours of allowing gas exchange, whilst not seeing any mycelial growth.

Thanks in advance for any insight, suggestions, or even interest. Sorry if this post is repetitive, but I couldn't find any posts that match my exact scenario, so here I am.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18910644 - 09/30/13 10:13 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

covered with tin foil with a heater for 3 days. We decided to take off the tin foil, flip them upside down, and we checked them 15 hours later, to discover our temperature was somewhere between 86 and 89 degrees Farenheit



Never flip over a PF jar unless the bottom isn't colonizing and it's already been growing for 2-3 weeks. Don't use a heater room temp is A-OK your coffee table would have been a million times better place to leave them with the tin foil off of the lids. The dry verm barrier protects them just don't handle them all the time.

Quote:

I used an extra cup of water in the mixing bowl prior to sterilization (3.5 instead of 2.5) because the substrate was not evenly moisturized and was clumped in some areas and dry and loose in others, so I'm wondering if this extra water was too much.



Yes everyone lied to you the 2-1-1 ratio is wrong  :loldongs: Next time just use the right amount of water using that much more will 100% chance make you fail a grow.

Quote:


We experimented with 2 jars having 2 holes on the lid, 2 with 3 holes and 6 with 4 holes.



Just use 4 holes and .25CC per hole

Quote:


The jars were put into a clear, plastic tub with a non-airtight lid, and were covered in blankets in a closet with a heater in it (see above for details on jar positioning and temperature).



Just put them in a closet or a shelf with no heater no tub and no foil still left on.

The PC is more than enough for PF jars you can steam them in a regular pot with a tight fitting lid for 90M and get success. You already know what went wrong it's everything you did that wasn't wrote town in the pf TEK to do.

Re-watch this http://www.shroomery.org/11432/Lets-Grow-Mushrooms-Pf-tek-videos


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18910689 - 09/30/13 10:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, thank you for the reply. So room temperature of about 72 degrees Fahrenheit is fine for mycelial growth? I was told 86 is optimal. We also have to use a closet for privacy.

Yeah, I'm regretting the additional water now, but I have to ask: Is the substrate supposed to look rather dry in some areas and wet in others, clumped in the wetter areas? That's the only reason I added more, because the substrate was not consistently moisturized.

And thanks for the link.

On another note: I only sterilized the needle once for each batch? Will not sterilizing it for each jar be a dealbreaker here, as well?

I'm going to do this by the book this next time around. I assumed there was room for error, but I didn't understand the necessity of precision.

Also, what's your take on my pressure cooker? Is 248 degrees Fahrenheit and 11.6 PSI adequate for sterilization of the substrate jars? Will they require additional cooking time?

Thank you again for your reply.


Edited by hihihi1717 (09/30/13 10:35 AM)


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18910717 - 09/30/13 10:40 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
So room temperature of about 72 degrees Fahrenheit is fine for mycelial growth? I was told 86 is optimal. We also have to use a closet for privacy



A little bit warmer than room temp can speed things up but it also speeds up competing contaminates. It's really not worth doing anything crazy IMO room temperature is perfect as long as it's between 67-75F or there abouts.

Quote:


Hey, thank you for the reply. Yeah, I'm regretting the additional water now, but I have to ask: Is the substrate supposed to look rather dry in some areas and wet in others, clumped in the wetter areas? That's the only reason I added more, because the substrate was not consistently moisturized.



It should all be at field capacity. Put the verm in a bowl add the water. There will be extra water pooling at the bottom. Then now the verm is moistened so add some BRF and mix then more and mix till it's all evenly incorporated. The brf should be mixed in last.


Quote:

On another note: I only sterilized the needle once for each batch? Will not sterilizing it for each jar be a dealbreaker here, as well?



I would sterilize between every jar, but not between the 4 holes on each jar.

Quote:


I'm going to do this by the book this next time around. I assumed there was room for error, but I didn't understand the necessity of precision.



It's alright but yes precision is the only thing that makes amateur home mycology work at all. We are trying to do what happens naturally outside on the inside of a house. We have to make all the right conditions and a lot of failure has left us with these successful methods.

Quote:

Also, what's your take on my pressure cooker? Is 248 degrees Fahrenheit and 11.6 PSI adequate for sterilization of the substrate jars? Will they require additional cooking time?



Pf jars don't need to be pressure cooked so even without the weight 90M would be good. If you do do grains 248F is just fine too.


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18910974 - 09/30/13 11:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, so for needle sterilization, how long should I wait after I sterilize it to inoculate? And do you prefer sn open flame or alcohol or something else?

Noobier question: PF jars? I know theyre probably what I have but what is PF? And if they don't need to be pressure cooked, what's your recommended sterilization technique for them? Or is it in the video (cant open the link yet, in public on mobile)? And what do you mean by grains? I'm using verm, brf and water. Nothing else.


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18911200 - 09/30/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Do like I did start over and don't give up.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18911226 - 09/30/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
Hey guys,

In the middle of mycelial growth stage right now with some cubensis on BRF cakes. There were 11 jars to start, and we set them in the closet, lids on and up, covered with tin foil with a heater for 3 days. We decided to take off the tin foil, flip them upside down, and we checked them 15 hours later, to discover our temperature was somewhere between 86 and 89 degrees Farenheit, and that 5 jars had become contaminated with a dark brown mold that I assume is a penicillin mold (anyone able to correct?).






I couldn't read past that part because it was bad enough to ensure fail.

Remove the foil as soon as they come out of the sterilizer.  You don't 'need' to use the pressure cooker as just a steaming pot for 90 minutes works fine.  Colonize at normal room temperature right-side-up.  Closets suck.  Put them on a shelf out in the open.  Nobody knows wtf they are.

Start over and use the brf tek videos next time.  I suggest not changing anything your first time as it's been proved to work as advertised about 50,000 times to far.
RR


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18911318 - 09/30/13 01:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the reply, will check out both links ASAP. Also, why out in the open? Isn't the air flow enough to spur contamination? I'd think a closet would be ideal. Thanks again.


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18911326 - 09/30/13 01:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

PF=psylocybe fanaticus, which is the company that created the BRF cake method. Did you inoculate in a glove box or SAB? (Still air box) that will also help decrease Contams next time. Just follow the tek to the T and you'll have a good time.  Good luck!


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: tybojengles]
    #18911396 - 09/30/13 01:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Will be sure to use a SAB next time! Thank you for bringing it to my attention!


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18911585 - 09/30/13 02:38 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

It's not the best practice but you can inoculate a PF tek jar in open air. I never ever bothered doing inoculations in a SAB or glove box if it was just a pf jar. I have never had a pf jar contam either. I have had grains go bad but that's another story and the next logical step after you are successful with PF tek jars.


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18911754 - 09/30/13 03:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

One thing I've learned so far from the others on here is stick to the TEK as much as humanly possible. I am in the middle of my first grow and RR's vids have helped me be successful so far. I have 7 wonderful PF jars going all with beautiful myc growth and 0 contams as of today (day 6 since inoculation) thanks to the vast knowledge of all the shroomery members. I'm by no means an expert, but I can safely say following the tek down to the letter has not let me down so far! Even if u end up with contaminated jars this time around, you can snap some shots and explain what you did and post up in the contam forum to help other beginners not make the same mistakes and identify what kind of contam you have and what may have caused it. I have learned lots from both successful grows and bad ones alike. Good luck my friend and may the mushroom gods be with u!


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: Dirtball]
    #18911801 - 09/30/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I lost 2 out of my first 6 jars to Contams  inoculating in open air. (One cobweb,and one trich.) I even flame sterilized after each jar!  I started knocking up my jars in my SAB, and I've had 100% contam free ever since using home made syringes. Just thought maybe it was worth mentioning if you continue to have contam issues. Also check out how to make self healing inoculation ports! They're pretty neat and super easy! :smile:


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Offlinehihihi1717
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: tybojengles]
    #18918094 - 10/01/13 08:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)







These are 3 of the jars we inoculated and I'm wondering if they look "healthy"? Looks like the beginning of mycelium growth but wouldn't mind a second opinion on the matter being its our first grow. Thanks again.


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18918128 - 10/01/13 08:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Hopefully it's your camera but I've never had jars that looked like that. I would say it's contamination or too wet. Open them on the porch when you want to birth them and see if they smell like mushrooms or assholes. :shrug:

It also doesn't look like any of the good brf jars here either:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17231150/fpart/1/vc/1


Edited by Trusted cuItivator (10/01/13 08:19 PM)


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18918360 - 10/01/13 09:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Hopefully it's your camera but I've never had jars that looked like that. I would say it's contamination or too wet. Open them on the porch when you want to birth them and see if they smell like mushrooms or assholes. :shrug:




That's priceless advice, truly dying here!


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #18918382 - 10/01/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong?



Quote:

hihihi1717 said:








Everything.....


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: PussyFart]
    #18920736 - 10/02/13 12:01 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong?



Quote:

hihihi1717 said:








Everything.....




It was difficult to find but unfortunately you're wrong he did do 1 thing right. :trollersgonnatroll:

Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
Prior to inoculation, a flame was used to sterilize the needle in both batches.





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Offlineinked4life
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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: hihihi1717]
    #22088421 - 08/13/15 06:01 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

first , 86 to 89 is a lil high, room temp of 70 to 86 is better, second , dont add extra water, mix the recipe jar by jar if you have to or mix really well first. extra moisture might not be shown as a problem til its too late. third, your pc is ok at 11 psi just cook for 2 hours at least, four, throw away tin foil after sterilization, its only use to stop extra moisture from entering during the sterilization process. five, always let your jars completely cool off, i leave mine in til the next morning, the inside temp will be warmer than the outside , even hours after taken out of the pc. six, never take off the lids after pc, defeats the purpose of pc sterilization. warm nutrients+open air = contam . sterilization is your main issue along with following a tek . frankenstiening and taking shots in the dark will only lead to frustration. patiences and strict sterilization techniques will make u achieve better results.


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Re: No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #22088450 - 08/13/15 06:07 PM (8 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
No Growth, 5/11 BRF Jars Contaminated - What'd I Do Wrong?



Quote:

hihihi1717 said:








Everything.....




It was difficult to find but unfortunately you're wrong he did do 1 thing right. :trollersgonnatroll:

Quote:

hihihi1717 said:
Prior to inoculation, a flame was used to sterilize the needle in both batches.






yeah but you have to flame the needle for each jar of each batch, example , batch 1 is 6 jars (flame needle 6 times , not just once for each batch otherwise you might only end up with 2 good jars , 1 jar from each batch.


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