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OfflineLSDXM
What Doth Life?
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: NetDiver]
    #18909454 - 09/29/13 11:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Considering that the abyss is made of the same shit as you, it's sort of always staring at you (this operates under the assumption that any "abyss" that may exist must exist within/as part of the uni/multiverse we currently occupy).


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
    #18909469 - 09/29/13 11:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.





I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?

It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.

I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.

That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
    #18909537 - 09/29/13 11:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well, we are fighting against death, but only in part. After we reproduce, it doesn't really matter to evolution if we die or not. Certain animals (mosquitoes, for instance) lay huge amounts of eggs because many, many of their offspring will be swiftly killed. Some animals are effectively immortal; if it were advantageous for us, we could have developed extraordinary regenerative capabilities, but we haven't since we don't need to stay alive forever, we just need to stay alive long enough to fuck and make more of ourselves.

Hell, some species eat their mate immediately after mating. I would say we're as much running towards sex as away from death.


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Invisibler72rock
Maybe so. Maybe not.
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #18909590 - 09/30/13 12:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I feel that anyone can readjust their lenses with a new world view, and find evidence for it. I mean, it could be true, but that's totally jumping to a conclusion, and of course, your findings would be be rationalized to fit into this new world view and it'll be affirmed. I'm not saying it's false exactly, I'm just saying, people tend to convince themselves of lots of things.

Trying to narrow a whole lot of human activities into one motive can be short sighted. Things seems to be too complex to have it boiled down to one drive. I'm not denying DA either, but I'm just saying if you look out into the world with that one scope, you'll find things for it and rationalize them to fall into place that way too. I just think we should be skeptical of reductionist views.


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Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
    #18909658 - 09/30/13 12:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think if you really believe in death, you haven't really seen the value of life and the depth of experience in it, and the complexity of merely being conscious. The world is constantly changing around you and your mind is constantly changing, and the two interact. With a bit of luck you get to see the world in a new way every day. With this in mind, and the beauty of Nature in the light of a high quality consciousness, it seems there are no reasons to assume anything is wrong at all.

I guess if you think of the world as science thinks of it, still, as inert, meaningless, non-telelogical, then of course you're worried. But all you have to do is investigate it yourself and gradually come to see that it's going to all be alright... there is just a twist to it all, a certain strangeness, even sacredness.

In short, for me, if asked about life I would say I don't know much but so far it's all looking pretty good, I think it's going to be alright.

The Perennial Philosophy is evidence that many people throughout the ages have seen God as the Self.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: NetDiver]
    #18909685 - 09/30/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Living is not the same as fighting against death. Living in fear of death is fighting against death.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
    #18909686 - 09/30/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
I think if you really believe in death, you haven't really seen the value of life and the depth of experience in it, and the complexity of merely being conscious.




What? :undecided: I didn't understand this at all. I believe in death, therefore, I haven't seen the value of life and the depth of experience that life has to offer?

Quote:

I guess if you think of the world as science thinks of it, still, as inert, meaningless, non-telelogical, then of course you're worried. But all you have to do is investigate it yourself and gradually come to see that it's going to all be alright... there is just a twist to it all, a certain strangeness, even sacredness.




I'm pretty sure that "science" doesn't think of the world is meaningless. It just investigates the world. It doesn't have an opinion on the matter.

Quote:

In short, for me, if asked about life I would say I don't know much but so far it's all looking pretty good, I think it's going to be alright.

The Perennial Philosophy is evidence that many people throughout the ages have seen God as the Self.




I'm glad it's good for you. :thumbup: For others it isn't that good, but I'm glad all's well for you.

And the Perennial Philosophy isn't evidence. It's a stance/view that argues for something. If you have evidence that points towards it, then cool. :laugh: What's your evidence?


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Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: r72rock]
    #18909739 - 09/30/13 01:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Quote:

circastes said:
I think if you really believe in death, you haven't really seen the value of life and the depth of experience in it, and the complexity of merely being conscious.




What? :undecided: I didn't understand this at all. I believe in death, therefore, I haven't seen the value of life and the depth of experience that life has to offer?

Quote:

I guess if you think of the world as science thinks of it, still, as inert, meaningless, non-telelogical, then of course you're worried. But all you have to do is investigate it yourself and gradually come to see that it's going to all be alright... there is just a twist to it all, a certain strangeness, even sacredness.




I'm pretty sure that "science" doesn't think of the world is meaningless. It just investigates the world. It doesn't have an opinion on the matter.

Quote:

In short, for me, if asked about life I would say I don't know much but so far it's all looking pretty good, I think it's going to be alright.

The Perennial Philosophy is evidence that many people throughout the ages have seen God as the Self.




I'm glad it's good for you. :thumbup: For others it isn't that good, but I'm glad all's well for you.

And the Perennial Philosophy isn't evidence. It's a stance/view that argues for something. If you have evidence that points towards it, then cool. :laugh: What's your evidence?




If you think it all ends at death, you surely haven't seen the value of life. This can't all be for nothing.

I don't know how to communicate or share my evidence, given that it's subjective, ie. how do I prove to you that I see a different world all the time? Different meaning in it altogether...


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx]
    #18910044 - 09/30/13 05:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That is hardly a shield against death anxiety,

It certainly can be. I know this because it is for me. Just knowing I am part of the great unknowable brings my ego some comfort and lessens my fear of my individual impermanence. I constantly, when my fears of being alone and vunerable arise, tell myself I cannot be alone and  and am part of the giant family of creation.

Now I'm not ready to totally agree with Becker that death anxiety cannot under any circumstances be overcome.  However it is very very rare indeed and the only evidence for it I have ever seen and believe is in the terminally ill.  Those very close to death.  I do wonder about this and what the process is and why when we are very close to our actual end is it that our death anxiety can be made to possibly  lessen dramatically?  (it could be an energy issue)

I've heard tons of kids however telling me they have no fears of death after taking psychedelics and after getting to know them by word or deed can see it's not be true at all. As soon as they really have a close call with their mortality all that great shit goes out the window.  I can easy, from the safety of my nice comfy computer chair tell myself I'm not fearing my impermanence.  Yet just put a little blood in my stool or put me in any one of my many anxiety provoking situations and I feel that fear.  It's still there. That doesn't mean however I've made zero headway against that fear in my lifetime.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: circastes]
    #18910045 - 09/30/13 05:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you think it all ends at death, you surely haven't seen the value of life. This can't all be for nothing.


Death anxiety 101 imo. Thanks for the great example.  Here we have someone claiming to know the unknowable. Why else but to placate themselves or should I say their fears?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18910056 - 09/30/13 05:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That is hardly a shield against death anxiety,

It certainly can be. I know this because it is for me. Just knowing I am part of the great unknowable brings my ego some comfort and lessens my fear of my individual impermanence. I constantly, when my fears of being alone and vunerable arise, tell myself I cannot be alone and  and am part of the giant family of creation.

Now I'm not ready to totally agree with Becker that death anxiety cannot under any circumstances be overcome.  However it is very very rare indeed and the only evidence for it I have ever seen and believe is in the terminally ill.  Those very close to death.  I do wonder about this and what the process is and why when we are very close to our actual end is it that our death anxiety can be made to possibly  lessen dramatically?  (it could be an energy issue)

I've heard tons of kids however telling me they have no fears of death after taking psychedelics and after getting to know them by word or deed can see it's not be true at all. As soon as they really have a close call with their mortality all that great shit goes out the window.  I can easy, from the safety of my nice comfy computer chair tell myself I'm not fearing my impermanence.  Yet just put a little blood in my stool or put me in any one of my many anxiety provoking situations and I feel that fear.  It's still there. That doesn't mean however I've made zero headway against that fear in my lifetime.




:thumbup: It could very well be that many of the terminally ill put up their own shields to hide the fact that they are dying - certainly I feel this to be the case in many instances.


--------------------
:brainondrugs:

You are not special :haha:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #18910143 - 09/30/13 06:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Well we are certainly going to get to find out.  I'm on the edge now, all my family is dying by disease one by one. I've lost at least a third in the last 6 years or so. They all suffered from death anxiety right to the end and it expressed itself in some unpleasant ways.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Icelander]
    #18910146 - 09/30/13 06:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way..  I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being.  I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills.  Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way.  The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18910234 - 09/30/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way

Absolutely, there are as many variations as their are people to some degree.  I'm more like you, especially since it's starting to happen to me now. :whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
    #18910611 - 09/30/13 09:52 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.





I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?

It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.

I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.

That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.





Death does not equal pain. Much of what you described is avoidance of pain rather than death.

The opposite of pleasure isn't death, it's pain. We try to mend our illnesses because they cause us pain, which make it hard to live. Fighting against cancer is fighting against death. Fighting against a skinned knee, however, is fighting against pain. So what are you saying, that if I really wasn't scared of death, I'd let my wounds fester?

It's important to note that the drive for pleasure (and thus the avoidance of pain) is in us long before we're even aware of the concept of death.


Edited by LSDXM (09/30/13 10:26 AM)


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #18910639 - 09/30/13 10:11 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
We may all fear death, but we certainly don't all do it in the same way..  I don't think about reincarnation, heaven, merging with God eternally, or anything existential to pacify my anxiety, or anything to exacerbate such fears like pondering hell or nothingness. It's not the lights going out that scares me, it's the impermanence of my currently resilient health and well being.  I think more about the process of aging and my health deteriorating into a purgatory of greater levels of pain and discomfort and my life savings being eaten away by medical bills.  Time flies when you're having fun, and I'd like to keep it that way.  The process of aging/dying though seems to make for an awfully long life.....




All that stuff, worrying about medical bills, future pain/discomfort, looking to religion and so on, is only a surface level reaction to DA IMO. That stuff varies from person to person a lot, but what's inside is most likely the same for everyone, what the schizo's and trippers and meth heads see and that is truly a hidden cauldron of madness, with all kinds of venomous, fanged and foreign, even alien creatures waiting to cut out your insides, those "cold grinding grizzly bear jaws hot on your heels".


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18910643 - 09/30/13 10:12 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:jimmorrison:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: LSDXM]
    #18910918 - 09/30/13 11:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.





I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?

It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.

I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.

That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.





Death does not equal pain. Much of what you described is avoidance of pain rather than death.

The opposite of pleasure isn't death, it's pain. We try to mend our illnesses because they cause us pain, which make it hard to live. Fighting against cancer is fighting against death. Fighting against a skinned knee, however, is fighting against pain. So what are you saying, that if I really wasn't scared of death, I'd let my wounds fester?

It's important to note that the drive for pleasure (and thus the avoidance of pain) is in us long before we're even aware of the concept of death.




It may be that we feel pain and try to avoid it just to feel pain and avoid it, and not because it keeps us alive. I just don't see much sense in that view :shrug:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: hTx] * 1
    #18910933 - 09/30/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Living is not the same as fighting against death. Living in fear of death is fighting against death.



No.  It is fighting against life.


--------------------


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OfflineLSDXM
What Doth Life?
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Re: Life is just a distraction [Re: Kickle]
    #18910963 - 09/30/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
What you experienced isn't actually any sort of universal truth. It's an inference based on limited information. Death anxiety isn't the default way of viewing things, everyone isn't constantly running from death. Some people are, especially those most aware of these concepts. Just because death IS inevitable doesn't make it different from any other thought loop.





I disagree with this in part. I think everyone is constantly running from death. It only makes sense IMO. What else are we doing? Why do we eat, sleep, fuck? Because we enjoy it? Why do we enjoy it? Because it ensures survival. Why do we try to mend our illnesses? Why do we look before we cross the road? Why does our body tense when someone jumps out from their hiding place?

It seems to me that our bodies are always on guard from death, to varying degrees.

I agree with your post in part too though. I've been stuck in a thought loop about death more than once. It is unnecessary although I don't consider it wrong to do. I've always found it most interesting that it has a strong emotional component to it. Fight or flight tries to kick in. But if death is inevitable, which it sure does seem to be, neither of these are actually options. And so depression or learned helplessness seems to be the result.

That is, assuming that the inevitability of death is actually felt. We can do all sorts of things to postpone it and feeling postponement is not the same.





Death does not equal pain. Much of what you described is avoidance of pain rather than death.

The opposite of pleasure isn't death, it's pain. We try to mend our illnesses because they cause us pain, which make it hard to live. Fighting against cancer is fighting against death. Fighting against a skinned knee, however, is fighting against pain. So what are you saying, that if I really wasn't scared of death, I'd let my wounds fester?

It's important to note that the drive for pleasure (and thus the avoidance of pain) is in us long before we're even aware of the concept of death.




It may be that we feel pain and try to avoid it just to feel pain and avoid it, and not because it keeps us alive. I just don't see much sense in that view :shrug:




It makes more sense to you, that we avoid pain because of the abstract fear of death, than that we avoid it because it hurts?

Existential crises are extremely personal experiences, not broad-scale. They may be innate/potential in everyone, but not everyone is experiencing an existential crisis. Everyone, however, feels pain (except of course people born with various mutations from the norm). Everyone generally agrees that pain is unpleasant (except of course for those who get off on it, or again, don't feel pain).

I feel like going any further and actually try to explain to you why people inherently are driven to avoid what hurts them would be insulting to everyone's intelligence.


Next time you cut yourself, realize that you have the choice to do it again immediately if you choose, even deeper if you want to, shit, you could cut off a whole finger if you felt like it, and think to yourself, "am I going to clean this instead of jamming a knife further into it, because I'm scared of death, or because of how badly it hurts?"


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:


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