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OfflineJames_Newell
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Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 11
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
mind and information prcessing
    #18910755 - 09/30/13 10:53 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In general, a broad kind of information processing theory can show things about consciousness that are beyond current theory and more than one might expect. Everything can be considered as information, in addition to what it is. So, for example, rain is rain, but it is also information.

Let me start with a question. Ordinary perception is different from perception after taking a hallucinogenic drug.

Tentatively, I think that the actual number of bits of of information in awareness is the same in each state, but the kind of bits of information is different. A bit of information is smaller then the measure "byte", which is used to describe digital cameras.

A bit is the very smallest spot, and can be expressed as zero or one.

The smallest speck in an image one sees is a bit. However, the smallest green dot is more than a bit, because there is the basic existence of the spot, plus additional bits of information involved in expressing the color, brightness, etc. of the dot.

So again, the question. Is the amount of information awareness processes at any one instant the same for ordinary perception, and drug altered perception, or is the total a amount of information being processed different?

Jim


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18910823 - 09/30/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Half of one, six dozen of the other.  Hope that helps. :nicesmile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: Icelander]
    #18910911 - 09/30/13 11:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Half of one, six dozen of the other.  Hope that helps.




That seems like quite unnecessary speech Icelander?

OP - All I can say regarding this matter is based on conjecture alone, however I would guess that one is able to process more information through drug altered perception. I have certainly seen and felt things through altered perception which I do not believe my sober mind has the capacity to translate.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18910930 - 09/30/13 11:41 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I remember when I thought my friend had stabbed himself in the stomach while both were tripping on psilocybin truffles. Eventually we figured out we had been laughing for 10 minutes based on the redness in his face. The whole trip was pretty much ruined for him when I became aware of his suicide attempt. I would never have collected such delusional information if we were sober.

Not sure if this is what you're looking for though, VERY vague OP IMO.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #18910938 - 09/30/13 11:42 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

That seems like quite unnecessary speech Icelander?

Unlike yours? :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18911327 - 09/30/13 01:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Drugs can alter perceptions but psychedelics increase brain activity which is a different issue. Music pieces I have trouble playing normally I play almost perfectly when tripping.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineJames_Newell
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Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 11
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18918100 - 10/01/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you for the replies. Although I still don't have a certain answer for myself, the replies will help.

I'm not sure where "half of one, six dozen of the other" is going. My first thought is that it us like "form is emptiness and emptiness is form", or the meditation state which is said to be neither perception nor nonperception. In other words the noumena transcends things like number, which could be that it transcends bits of information. Or, such a transcendent could be a kind of pivot which changes nerve impulse patte3rns into subjective perception. I think that that is correct as an overview, but there must be more to it because things emerge from the noumena in an orderly way. However, I'm don't know where to go with that at the moment. It is also possible that you mean something else, in which case I would like to hear it. You are going in a good direction if I understand you, and you may well be going in a good direction if I don't understand you.

On "capacity to translate", you are going in a functional direction, which I am sure leads somewhere. I have been comparing the total volume of my awareness, and assuming that if the volume remains the same. then a change in brightness doesn't change the number of bits, and whether it is solid or flowing doesn't change the number of bits, etc. So I am assuming that the same volume of awareness has the same number of bits of information in it. Even when there is space in that volume, I am assuming the same number of bits in that space. However I think your functional considerations have to be important also. Just in case you haven't tried it, I will note something that I did which made it easier to translate and remember what happened with drugs. While high, I wrote notes to myself describing what I was experiencing. Then, when I wasn't high, I read the notes and tried to understand them, making notes of that. Then when I was high again, I looked at my interpretation when not high and wrote notes to myself telling myself what I didn't understand from the first notes. Eventually, I began to understand and remember better what the experiences were like when I was high.

On "collect more information" that also is a good functional point which seems important. One question might be, "Is more information collected because awareness expands, or is more information collected because blocks which were taking up part of the awareness are removed?

On "playing music better", that is also functional, so most of you are gravitating to a functional perspective. I think that means that looking at the functional aspect of this is a very important way to go. In listening, music to me sounds better when high. Also, when I'm not high and listen to music with a still mind, it sounds better in the same way.  So perhaps those are linked. Being high though nevertheless is a little better than listening with a still mind.

Jim


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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18918918 - 10/01/13 11:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

There are many paths I could walk this idea down, but I'll try to stick to your specific intent.

In my understanding, all existence can be expressed numerically, so the rain as information is certainly a valid metaphor, but whether that is literally true is something we do not know. Perhaps the point is moot, and the mere fact that extant objects *can* be expressed numerically means that matter is information a priori because of it.

As it relates to altered states of consciousness, I believe this can best be expressed on the way time is altered, as time perception is relatively constant (minor fluctuations granted) in a sober state of mind. Time appears to dilate or expand under the influence of psilocin. I believe this is due to an increased rate of information processing, which creates a rather amusing paradox. time "feels" as though it is moving faster because of the speed of thought, and also what I believe is an increased visual frame rate during psychedelic experiences. One would think this would make time in general seem to move more quickly, but, counter-intuitive to this, more bits per second processed means that one will experience objective time more slowly (even though subjective time appears to have accelerated). It's analogous to watching a video in slow motion. the same amount of events occur, but each event is seen and understood on a dilated scale. If you've ever taken a walk while tripping, especially a long walk (a mile or more), then you can easily understand what I'm getting at. It feels like you're moving really quickly, and by the time you have covered a mile you *feel* as though you've covered six or seven. This is even more shocking when you see that only 30 minutes or so have passed. This leads us to believe that time is moving incredibly slow, even though we have in fact sped up.


Edited by Lysergic_Milkman (10/01/13 11:11 PM)


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OfflineJames_Newell
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Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 11
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18926252 - 10/03/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, I think you are right about perceived time and rate of information flow. It would be good to have a precise theory but I don't know how that might be done at the moment. I will note, though I don't know whether or not it is relevant, that Cantor found three different sizes of infinity, with hints that there might be more. The smallest sized infinity is the number of rational numbers.

The next larger infinity is the number of all irrational numbers.

The largest infinity is the number of all possible shapes.

That would affect the mathematics, although I haven't developed this so I don't know exactly what the effects would be.

Then, the perception of movement itself seems to require that consciousness can transcend at least two moments of time, and perhaps more. Linking two or more moments of time would be needed to perceive motion, and that by definition would be a transcendence of time. This is something which could no doubt be taken further than I have, as of now, taken it.

Jim


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18927936 - 10/03/13 08:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

normally I have a lot to say about this
but lately, as the economy picks up its pace
I find I have little energy to add here.

less could be more,

just breathe and watch what arises and passes away


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18929135 - 10/04/13 12:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

James_Newell said:
...The smallest sized infinity is the number of rational numbers.

The next larger infinity is the number of all irrational numbers.

The largest infinity is the number of all possible shapes.

That would affect the mathematics, although I haven't developed this so I don't know exactly what the effects would be....
Jim




Fascinating! I haven't heard that one before. I'm sure it could be applied here as well. I know of set theory, which can be applied similarly, but set theory is a fucking difficult asshole.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
normally I have a lot to say about this
but lately, as the economy picks up its pace
I find I have little energy to add here.

less could be more,

just breathe and watch what arises and passes away




Redgreenvines! It's been forever! I remember our last discussion vaguely (that was ohhh five years ago maybe?). Something about Salvia divinorum, of course. :wink:
5 shrooms for you for being around so damn long!  :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #18929629 - 10/04/13 04:12 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I knew that old fart from before the Shroomery.  He's about 100 years old now. :whoa:  He has a young wife so it's all good though. :jennajameson:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineJames_Newell
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Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 11
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: redgreenvines]
    #18935524 - 10/05/13 10:24 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


less could be more,

just breathe and watch what arises and passes away




A standard Buddhist meditation instruction, and an excellent meditation. There is a more advanced form of that meditation in Lu K'uan Yu (Charles Luk),1972, THE SECRETS OF CHINESE MEDITATION, New York: Samuel Weiser. It is called meditation on the Hua T'ou, pages 63 and 47 et seq.

An English translation of the Hua T'ou is "the head of a thought". It is the mind just before the thought arises, and while watching what arises and passes away, one tries to watch for the Hua T'ou. The Hua T'ou is the "mind before you were born" as you can see if you note that the thought is arising from the Hua T'ou just before the thought.

Jim


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 37,534
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: James_Newell]
    #18938059 - 10/05/13 09:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Is an attitude a habit?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: Icelander]
    #18948948 - 10/08/13 10:37 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I knew that old fart from before the Shroomery.  He's about 100 years old now. :whoa:  He has a young wife so it's all good though. :jennajameson:




Bahahaha!! That's the best thing I've heard all week! 5 shrooms for you too man! :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #18948997 - 10/08/13 10:50 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Good luck giving them to me. :evil:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLysergic_Milkman
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Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 1,676
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Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: Icelander]
    #18949055 - 10/08/13 11:09 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I noticed you have general ratings off lol. I left them at the door.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: mind and information prcessing [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #18949078 - 10/08/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

It's the thought that counts broski. :thumbup: (in lu of cash)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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