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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18907328 - 09/29/13 02:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Ewww.


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InvisibleHobozen
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Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc: Flag
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18907361 - 09/29/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

tested escort > some drunk bitch you don't know


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Hobozen]
    #18907432 - 09/29/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

"Drunk bitch you don't know", this is the same mentality porn in general is portrayed.


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As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18907508 - 09/29/13 03:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Oh she knew she had the herps :curbyourenthusiasm:

I would've said the same about guys but I'm not gay and you already referred to the escort as an escort "girl" so I assumed you weren't either.


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18907523 - 09/29/13 03:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

oh, and :kingcrankey:


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Hobozen]
    #18907651 - 09/29/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I would've said the same about guys but I'm not gay and you already referred to the escort as an escort "girl" so I assumed you weren't either.

How would you address a guy you didn't know handing you some weed for free in that same party?


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Hobozen]
    #18907653 - 09/29/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blankk said:
oh, and :kingcrankey:




:saulgoodman:


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: liquidlounge] * 2
    #18907680 - 09/29/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

In an attempt to try and steer this conversation back to a more scholarly direction... :rolleyes:

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
A lot of that study is "because men who watch this also like doing that means porn caused it". Which is bullshit. For example, is it surprising those who watch porn like to drink more? They are both highs. Is it surprising men who go to prostitutes and commit date rape also like to watch a lot of porn?




I agree - that I saw, no studies proved causation. I guess that's why it is so confusing that people are damning porn like it's compelling people to turn deviant and citing these articles as the smoking gun. Is that because the people making these claims don't understand the difference between causation and correlation, or because they aren't even aware such a difference exists?


"The House is Black; If man closes his eyes to it, there will be even more."



Is it wrong to portray violence? Is it wrong to dramatize exploitation, even make it seem desirable? That seems to be the underlying question, IMO.


I know a family that fell apart because the father was a porn addict. His life literally disintegrated and, presumably, he was unable to control himself (or maybe somewhere along the way he rationalized or stopped caring, maybe both). I can see how this example would look like causation, but maybe it's a sign of deeper issues. Isn't it always a sign of deeper issues when behavior turns neurotic?

This is an issue about control, exploitation, freedom, manipulation, privacy, autonomy, empathy, and the ability to distinguish reality from preconceived notions. I mean, right? The ones using the studies are trying to show causation because that's what they believe to be the case, but that doesn't seem to be the truth. What seems to be the truth is that people experiencing deeper issues (connected to those themes of violence, subjugation, etc) are drawn towards mediums which feed that. So it doesn't seem, IMHO, that the material is the problem. There is a bigger problem - perhaps that humans currently have no way to act on their darker desires without hurting someone else, or maybe there's a line that becomes ambiguous for whatever reason.


--------------------
full blown human


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OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
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Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18907727 - 09/29/13 04:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think we don't really understand what effects porn may or may not have on us yet and we will need more data, and better data than that to figure it out. The roots of our poor mental health has always been the biggest issue in every case of negative human behaviour and is never looked at or at least looked at so little that the effect is negligible.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18908036 - 09/29/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And here's your check.  How does that portray women as bad "guys"?




One of the things that I think shows some men to be mentally weak is this attitude of blaming women.



Blaming them for what?




There actions.  An extreme example would be the guy who forces themselves on a woman because she asked for it by how she was dressing or acting.  As if the woman made them do it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
    #18908047 - 09/29/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And here's your check.  How does that portray women as bad "guys"?




One of the things that I think shows some men to be mentally weak is this attitude of blaming women.



Blaming them for what?




There actions.  An extreme example would be the guy who forces themselves on a woman because she asked for it by how she was dressing or acting.  As if the woman made them do it.



What does that have to do with porn?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18908335 - 09/29/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Wasn't talking about porn. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
    #18908372 - 09/29/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

So some men rape.  What does that have to do with you or me?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18908385 - 09/29/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Did I say it had anything to do with us in particular? It was an example of a type of behavior where men blame women for "making" them act in certain ways. 

"I had to belt her cause she was driving me crazy"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
    #18908420 - 09/29/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Did I say it had anything to do with us in particular? It was an example of a type of behavior where men blame women for "making" them act in certain ways.




Theer are quite a few women who ascribe the the "the slut had it coming doctrine".
Quote:

 

"I had to belt her cause she was driving me crazy"




Did you bruise your knuckles.  Some men suck.  Some women suck.  You made the generalization.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18908429 - 09/29/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
In an attempt to try and steer this conversation back to a more scholarly direction... :rolleyes:

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
A lot of that study is "because men who watch this also like doing that means porn caused it". Which is bullshit. For example, is it surprising those who watch porn like to drink more? They are both highs. Is it surprising men who go to prostitutes and commit date rape also like to watch a lot of porn?




I agree - that I saw, no studies proved causation. I guess that's why it is so confusing that people are damning porn like it's compelling people to turn deviant and citing these articles as the smoking gun. Is that because the people making these claims don't understand the difference between causation and correlation, or because they aren't even aware such a difference exists?


"The House is Black; If man closes his eyes to it, there will be even more."



Is it wrong to portray violence? Is it wrong to dramatize exploitation, even make it seem desirable? That seems to be the underlying question, IMO.


I know a family that fell apart because the father was a porn addict. His life literally disintegrated and, presumably, he was unable to control himself (or maybe somewhere along the way he rationalized or stopped caring, maybe both). I can see how this example would look like causation, but maybe it's a sign of deeper issues. Isn't it always a sign of deeper issues when behavior turns neurotic?

This is an issue about control, exploitation, freedom, manipulation, privacy, autonomy, empathy, and the ability to distinguish reality from preconceived notions. I mean, right? The ones using the studies are trying to show causation because that's what they believe to be the case, but that doesn't seem to be the truth. What seems to be the truth is that people experiencing deeper issues (connected to those themes of violence, subjugation, etc) are drawn towards mediums which feed that. So it doesn't seem, IMHO, that the material is the problem. There is a bigger problem - perhaps that humans currently have no way to act on their darker desires without hurting someone else, or maybe there's a line that becomes ambiguous for whatever reason.



:thumbup:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18908458 - 09/29/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's all I was saying. I never said some women don't suck or that they don't ever think the same as men. I was talking about some men at that moment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
    #18908556 - 09/29/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Except you generalized.  Violently


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18908607 - 09/29/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes I generalized.  So?  I never said I wasn't.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OnlineKickleM
Wanderer
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Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,891
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Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18909322 - 09/29/13 10:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Apparently, there is a sizable population that thinks porn should be eradicated. Shocked? Me too. Especially since I thought it was only the "family-minded" or hardcore "feminists."

There's another group (probably a sub group) that offers "psychological" explanations of why porn should be eradicated. Here are some examples:

  • Porn desensitizes viewers so that they don't see anything wrong with sexual eploitation
  • "porn instills specific sexual behaviors and general attitudes toward women and children that lead to more violence against them"
  • "porn prioritizes male self-entitlement as the only and foremost form of entertainment at the expense of subjugating women"
  • "because “those who engaged in date rape reported that they “very frequently” viewed porn and the correlation between rape rates and circulation rates for eight pornographic magazines (the same magazines minus Hustler) indicated that states with higher circulation rates had higher rape rates."
  • It perpetuates the Rape Myth, Prostitution, Violent Crime, Pedophilia, etc. - Link to Article


Holy Hell. Those are pretty hefty claims. While I'm not sure how many studies in the article showed a causation effect (and not just a correlation, which wouldn't be so damning), there does seem to be a statistically significant trend in one study that found only 11% of child sexual offenders were NOT exposed to pornographic material. I mean, it isn't a study of causation, but it is still troubling if only for the fact that there are so many children with unencumbered access to explicit material.

Now, personally, I don't jump to demonizations. I think that censorship is neither practical nor desirable. And really, that's what this debate is about, isn't it? Whether or not there are some things we should censor because they "no good" to humanity.

While that is at least a valid argument, I don't think it is cogent. For one, prohibition only creates black markets, and really, I'm not sure the majority of those claims (desensitization, instilling violent attitudes, subjugating women, etc) are true. Moreover, taking away pornography from violence-prone individuals will not likely be a helpful intervention - they need behavioral and cognitive therapy, at least.


What's everyone else's view on this?





I just watched this the other day.

http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html

~2:45 onward is related to this thread
~3:20 are some nice stats :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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