|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
Porn: For Better or Worse
#18903797 - 09/28/13 06:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Apparently, there is a sizable population that thinks porn should be eradicated. Shocked? Me too. Especially since I thought it was only the "family-minded" or hardcore "feminists."
There's another group (probably a sub group) that offers "psychological" explanations of why porn should be eradicated. Here are some examples:
- Porn desensitizes viewers so that they don't see anything wrong with sexual eploitation
- "porn instills specific sexual behaviors and general attitudes toward women and children that lead to more violence against them"
- "porn prioritizes male self-entitlement as the only and foremost form of entertainment at the expense of subjugating women"
- "because โthose who engaged in date rape reported that they โvery frequentlyโ viewed porn and the correlation between rape rates and circulation rates for eight pornographic magazines (the same magazines minus Hustler) indicated that states with higher circulation rates had higher rape rates."
- It perpetuates the Rape Myth, Prostitution, Violent Crime, Pedophilia, etc. - Link to Article
Holy Hell. Those are pretty hefty claims. While I'm not sure how many studies in the article showed a causation effect (and not just a correlation, which wouldn't be so damning), there does seem to be a statistically significant trend in one study that found only 11% of child sexual offenders were NOT exposed to pornographic material. I mean, it isn't a study of causation, but it is still troubling if only for the fact that there are so many children with unencumbered access to explicit material.
Now, personally, I don't jump to demonizations. I think that censorship is neither practical nor desirable. And really, that's what this debate is about, isn't it? Whether or not there are some things we should censor because they "no good" to humanity.
While that is at least a valid argument, I don't think it is cogent. For one, prohibition only creates black markets, and really, I'm not sure the majority of those claims (desensitization, instilling violent attitudes, subjugating women, etc) are true. Moreover, taking away pornography from violence-prone individuals will not likely be a helpful intervention - they need behavioral and cognitive therapy, at least.
What's everyone else's view on this?
--------------------
full blown human
|
Raven Gnosis
๐ฐ๐ข๐ฏ๐ญ๐ข๐ซ๐ฑ๐ฆ๐ ๐ฆ๐ก๐


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
|
|
Having been exposed to porn at a young age made my first real sexual encounters with women quite confusing. It made my expectations unrealistic about most of it.
I instinctively could sense that this wasn't the best way and pretty much had to unlearn everything porn had taught me. This was a good thing and vastly improved my intimate relations. A lot of my friends still struggle in this area, the parallel between the fantasies and attitudes instilled through porn and honest, down to earth, open sexuality with their partners.
I've had several girlfriends whose sexuality had been clearly shaped by engaging with young men with these porn instilled attitudes, whom found great relief and healing in a relationship with more open and realistic attitudes about sex.
This is definitley something that is effecting young men and women of our culture.
As for banning porn? Stupid and unnecessary idea IMO, but perhaps finding better ways of limiting its access to humans during the years when their brains are most vulnerable and having real discussions with our youth about human sexuality.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
|
|
How are young people suppose to know what fucking is if they don't watch porn?
I had sex education in 4th grade when I was a child, and I still didn't know what sex was really about, I knew what the text book taught us about sperm and eggs, yet I was still clueless about sex.
Porn is a helpful educational resource for young people, there is nothing more helpful than visually watching something take place, a classroom and a textbook just don't get the job done.
|
Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc:
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: qman] 1
#18904090 - 09/28/13 07:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: How are young people suppose to know what fucking is if they don't watch porn?
not have kids as parents
|
zZZz
jesus


Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
|
|
It seems impossible at this point to rid of all pornography. The best choice imo, and it is something i would fully support, would be to control it and limit it.
Pornography corrupts the youth. It isn't just pornography, its sex, and i dont mean the experience, but its advertising which leads to its distortion. Take a look around; television, magazines, billboards, music, etc., its everywhere. Pictures of half naked women, you turn on the tv and then you have half naked women eating cheeseburgers, all put there intentionally to arouse your sexual emotions.
My question is, why?..
Its no wonder why there is so much perversion in our world today. I can understand it, and i am not hating on pornography, but rather its lack of censorship and the fact that it is advertised worldwide like a fucking soda pop commercial.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Hobozen] 1
#18904110 - 09/28/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blankk said:
Quote:
qman said: How are young people suppose to know what fucking is if they don't watch porn?
not have kids as parents
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zZZz]
#18904134 - 09/28/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zZZz said: It seems impossible at this point to rid of all pornography. The best choice imo, and it is something i would fully support, would be to control it and limit it.
Pornography corrupts the youth. It isn't just pornography, its sex, and i dont mean the experience, but its advertising which leads to its distortion. Take a look around; television, magazines, billboards, music, etc., its everywhere. Pictures of half naked women, you turn on the tv and then you have half naked women eating cheeseburgers, all put there intentionally to arouse your sexual emotions.
My question is, why?..
Its no wonder why there is so much perversion in our world today. I can understand it, and i am not hating on pornography, but rather its lack of censorship and the fact that it is advertised worldwide like a fucking soda pop commercial.
"control and it and limit it"
No thank you, and who would be in charge of this control and limitations? Our politicians!
"Pornography corrupts the youth."
There is no evidence for this statement.
Attractive people that advertise products make them more attractive to consumers, so what?
Sounds like you are in favor of censorship, I don't think that's a good idea, citizens cherish their freedom of speech and expression.
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Raven Gnosis] 1
#18904188 - 09/28/13 07:45 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zZZz said: Pornography corrupts the youth. It isn't just pornography, its sex, and i dont mean the experience, but its advertising which leads to its distortion. Take a look around; television, magazines, billboards, music, etc., its everywhere. Pictures of half naked women, you turn on the tv and then you have half naked women eating cheeseburgers, all put there intentionally to arouse your sexual emotions.
My question is, why?..
You make a good point in regards to sexualized marketing. Everything seems so blown out of proportion. Even models are photoshopped- so the image you see in magazines, etc isn't the actual model, but an idealized version of the model.
Then there's the dramatic element to porn - as I understand it, most of what is shown isn't "real," but rather faked (sounds, etc). So to a young, inexperienced person that doesn't know that, they expect something completely different from their experience based on that.
Again, it seems that a strong parental influence is lacking. I mean, there's gotta be a point at which you talk to your children about these things & tell them what the nature of those types of things are. Teach them how marketing plays on emotions to bring out certain associations & the impulses that go with it. Keep your own personal, explicit material in a safe place.
"A lot of my friends still struggle in this area, the parallel between the fantasies and attitudes instilled through porn and honest, down to earth, open sexuality with their partners." Yeah, I feel like I know what you mean.
--------------------
full blown human
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
I only entered this thread for the nude pictures!
--------------------
|
Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc:
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zZZz]
#18904229 - 09/28/13 07:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zZZz said: My question is, why?..
maybe they want to make people so insane that they lose the integrity to go and talk to people without objectifying them. it's all fake. fucking surface dwellers, characters in the matrix.. all this shit is to keep us locked in. /drunken 2 cents
|
i like cow poo
Nature Lover


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 4,041
Loc: Mother Nature's Vagina
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
|
So many people watch porn. Its an ungodly amount. I love how they say its degrading to women. Yet, don't mention the men at all. Nothing wrong with porn. If anything it allows people to release sexual tension making them less likely to rape IMHO
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
As I mentioned in another thread, Utah (read: Mormons) have the highest porn subscription rate in the USA. This is a definitive no-no in the Mormon Church.
I can never get my head around people professing one thing - and even going door-to-door to get converts to a faith they don't even believe in, and then disregarding their own teachings to do what they want. Why all the lame pretense?
--------------------
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
|
Well porn isn't going anywhere, but the emphasis on humiliation in pornography does kind of creep me out. However in my opinion it its only reinforcing something which is already there, it wouldn't be the way it is if a lot of people didn't want it that way.
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
|
Quote:
i like cow poo said: I love how they say its degrading to women. Yet, don't mention the men at all.
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
|
|
Porn lacks love and degrades women to their bodies and men to their penis
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
|
Quote:
i like cow poo said: Nothing wrong with porn. If anything it allows people to release sexual tension making them less likely to rape IMHO 
Hardly, there's most often an aggressiveness in porn which contributes or even creates such general mentality towards sexual intercourse. That you will never get the girl in these trashy videos should piss you off coming back for more, not a healthy mentality and could potentially intrigue you to force yourself on this type of looking girl in real life.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
|
A lot of that study is "because men who watch this also like doing that means porn caused it". Which is bullshit. For example, is it surprising those who watch porn like to drink more? They are both highs. Is it surprising men who go to prostitutes and commit date rape also like to watch a lot of porn?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 17 days
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Grapefruit]
#18905769 - 09/29/13 03:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, getting payed for sex is simply prostitution. And prostitution has nothing to do with sex in love.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: BlueCoyote] 1
#18906089 - 09/29/13 07:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Porn lacks love and degrades women to their bodies and men to their penis 
That is a black and white statement and so not true. If one searches they can find porn that reflects the loving nature of relationship. It is rare however. Men are basically violent turds and women are weak.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: As I mentioned in another thread, Utah (read: Mormons) have the highest porn subscription rate in the USA. This is a definitive no-no in the Mormon Church.
I can never get my head around people professing one thing - and even going door-to-door to get converts to a faith they don't even believe in, and then disregarding their own teachings to do what they want. Why all the lame pretense?
How do you know it is the Mormons doing it?
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18906826 - 09/29/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Porn lacks love and degrades women to their bodies and men to their penis 
That is a black and white statement and so not true. If one searches they can find porn that reflects the loving nature of relationship. It is rare however. Men are basically violent turds and women are weak. 
Women are making billions of dollars exploiting weak men.
--------------------
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18906861 - 09/29/13 12:05 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Not according to the videos.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
|
Most porn videos are obviously made for men to feel supreme, women are portrayed as the bad guys.
That's why we love Supperman.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: liquidlounge] 1
#18906940 - 09/29/13 12:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Not according to the videos.
Are you watching gay porn exclusively? Who do you think makes the money? Hint, it isn't the stunt cocks.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18906960 - 09/29/13 12:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: Porn lacks love and degrades women to their bodies and men to their penis 
That is a black and white statement and so not true. If one searches they can find porn that reflects the loving nature of relationship. It is rare however. Men are basically violent turds and women are weak. 
Women are making billions of dollars exploiting weak men.
I'll not dispute that but it's not where I'm going with that comment.
It's not hard to exploit a man who's basically got nothing but instinct in the drivers seat.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18906963 - 09/29/13 12:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Men are not basically violent turds, either. Maybe you are but I'm not.
--------------------
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18906968 - 09/29/13 12:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Not according to the videos.
Are you watching gay porn exclusively? Who do you think makes the money? Hint, it isn't the stunt cocks.
I was thinking about what goes on in the videos.
Hint:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Most porn videos are obviously made for men to feel supreme, women are portrayed as the bad guys.
That's why we love Supperman. 
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
How are women portrayed as the bad "guys"? They are portrayed as objects of desire. Or are you just watching dominatrix porn?
--------------------
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18906990 - 09/29/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Load, unload and that's it whores.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907074 - 09/29/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Men are not basically violent turds, either. Maybe you are but I'm not.
Must be true if you say so.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907079 - 09/29/13 01:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
One of the things that I think shows some men to be mentally weak is this attitude of blaming women.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907101 - 09/29/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
Society in its entirety.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18907195 - 09/29/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
One of the things that I think shows some men to be mentally weak is this attitude of blaming women.
Blaming them for what?
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
Society in its entirety.
How wonderfully puritanical of you. Do you also have a problem with prostitution?
--------------------
|
dirty
super sketch



Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 120
Loc: stateside
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907210 - 09/29/13 01:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
people who watch people get raped and children get molested are fucked in the head anyhow and will do what they want with or without porn.
-------------------- "In a completely sane world, madness is the only freedom" -J.G. Ballard "Why isn't there a strain yet called Rubix Cubensis?" -Fraggin
|
EdibleStereos
Healthy Body, Sick Mind


Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 4,899
Loc: South Africa
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: dirty] 2
#18907267 - 09/29/13 02:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I've actually read an article by a women who think it is men who are made as objects in porn, not the women.
Her reasoning was, in modern porn, the role of the male is reduced to simply a penis, doesnt matter if the guy is big/fat/ugly or whatever. He is only needed for his penis.
While the emphasis on sexuality is only with the women, and she is the focus. The male could be anyone and the viewer wouldnt really care.
I think she was only speaking on the less hardcore stuff though.
For myself, I've been exposed to pornagraphy at a very young age, and began masturbating to hardcore porn magazines at age 12.
And I do get turned on by the the degrading acts I've seen in porn. But I realize it is porn, it isn't real. Just like regular movies, it is fiction. I dont think enough young men are taught that, and therefor try to perform the sex acts they see in porn, often to the detriment of the woman.
Now I will admit I enjoy rough sex, and like to be the dominant force in the bedroom. But this is why I tend to choose girls who enjoy that and when I have sex with a girl who isnt into it. I tone it down to what she is receptive of.
|
EdibleStereos
Healthy Body, Sick Mind


Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 4,899
Loc: South Africa
|
|
Although, as an interesting note, I came across an old porn hard drive I had from 10 years ago. And the vanilla porn I was into back then just doesnt get me off now. The porn I have now is much much more extreme.
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
|
Quote:
EdibleStereos said:
But I realize it is porn, it isn't real. Just like regular movies, it is fiction.
Sex slavery is very real and the porn industry is full of it, as a small start on how false that statement is
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907305 - 09/29/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
Society in its entirety.
How wonderfully puritanical of you. Do you also have a problem with prostitution?
Society in its entirety speaks for itself. No, I had sexual intercourse with an escort girl last Tuesday.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
Ewww.
--------------------
|
Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc:
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907361 - 09/29/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
tested escort > some drunk bitch you don't know
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Hobozen]
#18907432 - 09/29/13 02:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
"Drunk bitch you don't know", this is the same mentality porn in general is portrayed.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc:
|
|
Oh she knew she had the herps 
I would've said the same about guys but I'm not gay and you already referred to the escort as an escort "girl" so I assumed you weren't either.
|
Hobozen


Registered: 11/03/11
Posts: 10,634
Loc:
|
|
oh, and
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Hobozen]
#18907651 - 09/29/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I would've said the same about guys but I'm not gay and you already referred to the escort as an escort "girl" so I assumed you weren't either.
How would you address a guy you didn't know handing you some weed for free in that same party?
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Hobozen]
#18907653 - 09/29/13 03:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blankk said: oh, and 
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: liquidlounge] 2
#18907680 - 09/29/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
In an attempt to try and steer this conversation back to a more scholarly direction... 
Quote:
Grapefruit said: A lot of that study is "because men who watch this also like doing that means porn caused it". Which is bullshit. For example, is it surprising those who watch porn like to drink more? They are both highs. Is it surprising men who go to prostitutes and commit date rape also like to watch a lot of porn?
I agree - that I saw, no studies proved causation. I guess that's why it is so confusing that people are damning porn like it's compelling people to turn deviant and citing these articles as the smoking gun. Is that because the people making these claims don't understand the difference between causation and correlation, or because they aren't even aware such a difference exists?
"The House is Black; If man closes his eyes to it, there will be even more."
Is it wrong to portray violence? Is it wrong to dramatize exploitation, even make it seem desirable? That seems to be the underlying question, IMO.
I know a family that fell apart because the father was a porn addict. His life literally disintegrated and, presumably, he was unable to control himself (or maybe somewhere along the way he rationalized or stopped caring, maybe both). I can see how this example would look like causation, but maybe it's a sign of deeper issues. Isn't it always a sign of deeper issues when behavior turns neurotic?
This is an issue about control, exploitation, freedom, manipulation, privacy, autonomy, empathy, and the ability to distinguish reality from preconceived notions. I mean, right? The ones using the studies are trying to show causation because that's what they believe to be the case, but that doesn't seem to be the truth. What seems to be the truth is that people experiencing deeper issues (connected to those themes of violence, subjugation, etc) are drawn towards mediums which feed that. So it doesn't seem, IMHO, that the material is the problem. There is a bigger problem - perhaps that humans currently have no way to act on their darker desires without hurting someone else, or maybe there's a line that becomes ambiguous for whatever reason.
--------------------
full blown human
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
|
I think we don't really understand what effects porn may or may not have on us yet and we will need more data, and better data than that to figure it out. The roots of our poor mental health has always been the biggest issue in every case of negative human behaviour and is never looked at or at least looked at so little that the effect is negligible.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908036 - 09/29/13 05:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
One of the things that I think shows some men to be mentally weak is this attitude of blaming women.
Blaming them for what?
There actions. An extreme example would be the guy who forces themselves on a woman because she asked for it by how she was dressing or acting. As if the woman made them do it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18908047 - 09/29/13 05:35 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: And here's your check. How does that portray women as bad "guys"?
One of the things that I think shows some men to be mentally weak is this attitude of blaming women.
Blaming them for what?
There actions. An extreme example would be the guy who forces themselves on a woman because she asked for it by how she was dressing or acting. As if the woman made them do it.
What does that have to do with porn?
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908335 - 09/29/13 06:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Wasn't talking about porn.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18908372 - 09/29/13 06:45 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
So some men rape. What does that have to do with you or me?
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908385 - 09/29/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Did I say it had anything to do with us in particular? It was an example of a type of behavior where men blame women for "making" them act in certain ways.
"I had to belt her cause she was driving me crazy"
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18908420 - 09/29/13 06:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Did I say it had anything to do with us in particular? It was an example of a type of behavior where men blame women for "making" them act in certain ways.
Theer are quite a few women who ascribe the the "the slut had it coming doctrine".Quote:
"I had to belt her cause she was driving me crazy"
Did you bruise your knuckles. Some men suck. Some women suck. You made the generalization.
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
Penelope_Tree said: In an attempt to try and steer this conversation back to a more scholarly direction... 
Quote:
Grapefruit said: A lot of that study is "because men who watch this also like doing that means porn caused it". Which is bullshit. For example, is it surprising those who watch porn like to drink more? They are both highs. Is it surprising men who go to prostitutes and commit date rape also like to watch a lot of porn?
I agree - that I saw, no studies proved causation. I guess that's why it is so confusing that people are damning porn like it's compelling people to turn deviant and citing these articles as the smoking gun. Is that because the people making these claims don't understand the difference between causation and correlation, or because they aren't even aware such a difference exists?
"The House is Black; If man closes his eyes to it, there will be even more."
Is it wrong to portray violence? Is it wrong to dramatize exploitation, even make it seem desirable? That seems to be the underlying question, IMO.
I know a family that fell apart because the father was a porn addict. His life literally disintegrated and, presumably, he was unable to control himself (or maybe somewhere along the way he rationalized or stopped caring, maybe both). I can see how this example would look like causation, but maybe it's a sign of deeper issues. Isn't it always a sign of deeper issues when behavior turns neurotic?
This is an issue about control, exploitation, freedom, manipulation, privacy, autonomy, empathy, and the ability to distinguish reality from preconceived notions. I mean, right? The ones using the studies are trying to show causation because that's what they believe to be the case, but that doesn't seem to be the truth. What seems to be the truth is that people experiencing deeper issues (connected to those themes of violence, subjugation, etc) are drawn towards mediums which feed that. So it doesn't seem, IMHO, that the material is the problem. There is a bigger problem - perhaps that humans currently have no way to act on their darker desires without hurting someone else, or maybe there's a line that becomes ambiguous for whatever reason.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908458 - 09/29/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
That's all I was saying. I never said some women don't suck or that they don't ever think the same as men. I was talking about some men at that moment.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18908556 - 09/29/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Except you generalized. Violently
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908607 - 09/29/13 07:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yes I generalized. So? I never said I wasn't.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,855
Last seen: 31 seconds
|
|
Quote:
Penelope_Tree said: Apparently, there is a sizable population that thinks porn should be eradicated. Shocked? Me too. Especially since I thought it was only the "family-minded" or hardcore "feminists."
There's another group (probably a sub group) that offers "psychological" explanations of why porn should be eradicated. Here are some examples:
- Porn desensitizes viewers so that they don't see anything wrong with sexual eploitation
- "porn instills specific sexual behaviors and general attitudes toward women and children that lead to more violence against them"
- "porn prioritizes male self-entitlement as the only and foremost form of entertainment at the expense of subjugating women"
- "because โthose who engaged in date rape reported that they โvery frequentlyโ viewed porn and the correlation between rape rates and circulation rates for eight pornographic magazines (the same magazines minus Hustler) indicated that states with higher circulation rates had higher rape rates."
- It perpetuates the Rape Myth, Prostitution, Violent Crime, Pedophilia, etc. - Link to Article
Holy Hell. Those are pretty hefty claims. While I'm not sure how many studies in the article showed a causation effect (and not just a correlation, which wouldn't be so damning), there does seem to be a statistically significant trend in one study that found only 11% of child sexual offenders were NOT exposed to pornographic material. I mean, it isn't a study of causation, but it is still troubling if only for the fact that there are so many children with unencumbered access to explicit material.
Now, personally, I don't jump to demonizations. I think that censorship is neither practical nor desirable. And really, that's what this debate is about, isn't it? Whether or not there are some things we should censor because they "no good" to humanity.
While that is at least a valid argument, I don't think it is cogent. For one, prohibition only creates black markets, and really, I'm not sure the majority of those claims (desensitization, instilling violent attitudes, subjugating women, etc) are true. Moreover, taking away pornography from violence-prone individuals will not likely be a helpful intervention - they need behavioral and cognitive therapy, at least.
What's everyone else's view on this?
I just watched this the other day.
http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html
~2:45 onward is related to this thread ~3:20 are some nice stats
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 17,257
Loc: Geospatial inversion.
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
|
|
Share fetish with significant other/be declined or porn.
Thank you porn, keep me normal.
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Kickle]
#18910243 - 09/30/13 07:34 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: I just watched this the other day.
http://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge.html
~2:45 onward is related to this thread ~3:20 are some nice stats 
Great find This should be sign that we can't keep educating like was done in the 1900's. The model is still the same, but it doesn't fit the task anymore.
Also, I read this article ("Sex Is Cheap: Why young men have the upper hand in bed, even when they're failing in life" in Slate magazine) that essentially blames women for not having higher standards:
Quote:
When attractive women will still bed you, life for young men, even those who are floundering, just isn't so bad. This isn't to say that all men direct the course of their relationships. Plenty don't. But what many young men wish forโaccess to sex without too many complications or commitmentsโcarries the day. If women were more fully in charge of how their relationships transpired, we'd be seeing, on average, more impressive wooing efforts, longer relationships, fewer premarital sexual partners, shorter cohabitations, and more marrying going on.
...
Women's "erotic capital," as Catherine Hakim of the London School of Economics has dubbed it, can still be traded for attention, a job, perhaps a boyfriend, and certainly all the sex she wants, but it can't assure her love and lifelong commitment. Not in this market.
I think that's a bit brash considering the stats Zimbardo provided, but interesting nonetheless. Especially given this statement:
Quote:
Beanhead said:Share fetish with significant other/be declined or porn.
Has porn changed the game?
--------------------
full blown human
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
The easy access to porn certainly has changed the game for women imo. They have to try and compete with that free and easy and do anything image from what I'm seeing out there. It's hardly a good thing imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18910394 - 09/30/13 08:36 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Well, eventually porn becomes boring, right? Or at least less satisfying. Humans still seek out sexual experiences with other humans. Maybe it's a matter of expectations. I think it's becoming more easy to find other people with specific fetishes - there are online communities for that. So, I don't think that's necessarily the problem. I think it is a warping of the way relationships are conceptualized. Zimbardo mentioned that in the clip. Relationships build slowly and subtly, he said. Unfortunately, there is very little in modern society that is valued for its less-than-instantaneous gratification.
--------------------
full blown human
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I don't think you understand men well. If porn became boring or less interesting there would be a lot less of it around. It might be like saying that a heroin user might become bored of the high. Even if that were true to a degree there still is nothing better out there. Relationships are hard to find and maintain and rarely last or are happy. That's a serious reason to turn to porn and save your money and time for drugs and beer.
I'm not saying my thoughts are the only issue or problem here. Not at all. It's a complex issue.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
i like cow poo
Nature Lover


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 4,041
Loc: Mother Nature's Vagina
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
|
porn allows me to vent my sexual frustration in a somewhat harmless manner. i believe it benefits some people and hurts some people. its hard to quantify if it does more harm then good.
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
|
It certainly keeps your mind focused on chicks and not reality. Instead of releasing your anger or frustration over the shitty society we live in, you release it looking at porn just like men in porn movies.
Effective tool.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: Relationships are hard to find and maintain and rarely last or are happy.
That's part of the problem. There is evidence that supports relationship quality is degrading because people just don't know how to communicate their emotions & empathize (males are at an increased risk, by way of genetic design and social expectations). It isn't something we place emphasis on, here in America at least - it isn't taught in school, and everyone knows that school is the pinnacle of all that is worthy of effort. There is also evidence that the need to feel understood is an essential component to mental health. So, combine that with being unskilled in communicating your needs and it's no wonder most of modern society is neurotic. (You yourself have idealized primitive tribes that understand the need for belonging & cultivate personal growth, so I assume you agree.)
When people use behaviors, it is most basically compelled by an emotional impulse. You're looking for a thrill, or you feel the need for control, etc. Maybe you're just modeling what others around you do. Whatever the reason, you're fulfilling an emotional need through a behavior. Behaviors can become addicting, and addiction is unsustainable in terms of happiness.
So you want to enjoy a cigarette every now and then again? I don't see what the problem is, as long as it doesn't interfere with your everyday life and/or become a behavior you use to resolve emotional conflicts. Same here with porn. So you need to satisfy some sexual compulsion. No problem, as long as it doesn't affect your ability to form and sustain real world relationships because, if that happens, then there's a problem, IMHO.
If society shifts from a cooperative, relationship-based model to a more solitary, individualistic one, things are going to drastically change within the next twenty years. I'm talking single-parent households becoming the new normal, among other things. It's no wonder the porn industry is as prevalent as it is, or why my generation's predecessors don't understand what we're going through, or that the rich keep getting richer while the poor get poorer. But I digress...
Maybe porn is symbolic of a lonely dystopia, and thus why it gets such a bad rap. 
Quote:
liquidlounge said: It certainly keeps your mind focused on chicks and not reality. Instead of releasing your anger or frustration over the shitty society we live in, you release it looking at porn just like men in porn movies.
Effective tool.
I wouldn't consider that effective. You're not really fixing anything, just using a behavior as an impermanent distraction.
--------------------
full blown human
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
|
porn is alot like grand theft auto. as long as you REALIZE it's just a super-exaggerated virtual reality....well then you're ok. if you take it as the "real thing" well then you might have some problems.
for example, if you watch porn all the time, BELIEVE that what you are seeing is authentic and try to imitate that jackhammer "fuck the whore" style of sex in your real relationships...well there's going to be alot of frustration and heartbreak in the long run. you're just going to end up using women for sex.
but if you watch porn, realize that it's just an exaggerated fast-food fantasy substitute for genuine love and intimacy with a partner...well then it's just a good ol' release from time to time for single folks.
--------------------
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111]
#18911481 - 09/30/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Agree
--------------------
full blown human
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
|
Quote:
Penelope_Tree said: I wouldn't consider that effective. You're not really fixing anything, just using a behavior as an impermanent distraction.
Effective tool for the directors.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
Cyclohexylamine
Turn on, Tune in, Drop out



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 14,327
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111] 1
#18911511 - 09/30/13 02:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Relationships are hard to find and maintain and rarely last or are happy.
That's part of the problem. There is evidence that supports relationship quality is degrading because people just don't know how to communicate their emotions & empathize (males are at an increased risk, by way of genetic design and social expectations). It isn't something we place emphasis on, here in America at least - it isn't taught in school, and everyone knows that school is the pinnacle of all that is worthy of effort. There is also evidence that the need to feel understood is an essential component to mental health. So, combine that with being unskilled in communicating your needs and it's no wonder most of modern society is neurotic. (You yourself have idealized primitive tribes that understand the need for belonging & cultivate personal growth, so I assume you agree.)
When people use behaviors, it is most basically compelled by an emotional impulse. You're looking for a thrill, or you feel the need for control, etc. Maybe you're just modeling what others around you do. Whatever the reason, you're fulfilling an emotional need through a behavior. Behaviors can become addicting, and addiction is unsustainable in terms of happiness.
So you want to enjoy a cigarette every now and then again? I don't see what the problem is, as long as it doesn't interfere with your everyday life and/or become a behavior you use to resolve emotional conflicts. Same here with porn. So you need to satisfy some sexual compulsion. No problem, as long as it doesn't affect your ability to form and sustain real world relationships because, if that happens, then there's a problem, IMHO.
If society shifts from a cooperative, relationship-based model to a more solitary, individualistic one, things are going to drastically change within the next twenty years. I'm talking single-parent households becoming the new normal, among other things. It's no wonder the porn industry is as prevalent as it is, or why my generation's predecessors don't understand what we're going through, or that the rich keep getting richer while the poor get poorer. But I digress...
Maybe porn is symbolic of a lonely dystopia, and thus why it gets such a bad rap.  distraction.
Good post and thread Penelope_Tree.
Quote:
resonant111 said: porn is alot like grand theft auto. as long as you REALIZE it's just a super-exaggerated virtual reality....well then you're ok. if you take it as the "real thing" well then you might have some problems.
for example, if you watch porn all the time, BELIEVE that what you are seeing is authentic and try to imitate that jackhammer "fuck the whore" style of sex in your real relationships...well there's going to be alot of frustration and heartbreak in the long run. you're just going to end up using women for sex.
but if you watch porn, realize that it's just an exaggerated fast-food fantasy substitute for genuine love and intimacy with a partner...well then it's just a good ol' release from time to time for single folks.
This is true.
I personally don't see anything wrong with porn provided the person viewing it doesn't believe it's authentic and that they should emulate it. This is where better sex education would be a good thing in schools. When kids learn about sex through porn it's no wonder there are issues.
--------------------
You are not special
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
liquidlounge said: It certainly keeps your mind focused on chicks and not reality. Instead of releasing your anger or frustration over the shitty society we live in, you release it looking at porn just like men in porn movies.
Effective tool.
What shitty society? We have it better now than ever before
--------------------
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911659 - 09/30/13 02:56 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
"Shit!" now in new mild & creamy flavour.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#18911664 - 09/30/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
What shitty society?
Lady Gaga and not Pat Metheny? McDonald's instead of healthy fresh fast foods? I am not allowed to figure out ways to peaceful society when on psychedelic drugs? US military budgets 700 billion USD while NASA gets 18 billion USD, medical research 30 billion USD?
Tip of the iceberg.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
liquidlounge said: What shitty society?
Lady Gaga and not Pat Metheny? McDonald's instead of healthy fresh fast foods? I am not allowed to figure out ways to peaceful society when on psychedelic drugs? US military budgets 700 billion USD while NASA gets 18 billion USD, medical research 30 billion USD?
Tip of the iceberg.
Fuck Pat Metheny, give the people what they want. Popular culture has always been crass. It is irrelevant. We have more choices now than ever before. I can get all the healthy food I want and so can anybody else. Every nation on the planet has drug laws and pretty much has for quite some time. Why is medical research the purview of the federal government? The military certainly is. NASA? I have a better idea. Let's stop with that stuff and fund something supremely useful and essential. Like fusion research.
--------------------
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911803 - 09/30/13 03:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Let's stop with that stuff and fund something supremely useful and essential. Like fusion research.
I couldn't agree more... but I don't think TPTB would allow public access until they're satisfied that it won't result in a population increase.
As far as the porn goes, it doesn't seem possible to sort out the net effect so I have no opinion on that but I do have strong feelings toward the concept of liberty. Porn in and of itself doesn't infringe on individual liberty.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youโre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." โAyishat Akanbi
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Rahz]
#18911814 - 09/30/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
It is an expression of individual liberty.
--------------------
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911973 - 09/30/13 04:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yes exactly, we agree. Regardless of whether the overall effect was detrimental or not I would have strong reservations about restricting that liberty. I prefer to allow people to hurt themselves. Sex slavery is an infringement of liberty so is an entirely different issue but infringing on people's liberty to prevent people from infringing on people's liberty seems a kind of twisted logic.
Some would argue that we should choose the lesser of evils but it's a slippery slope.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youโre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." โAyishat Akanbi
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
|
I saw this article on my FB page. It seems relevant to the concern about addiction to porn and psycho-social as well as psycho-sexual implications:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/29/porn-addiction_n_4004069.html
-------------------- ฮณฮฝแฟถฮธฮน ฯฮฑแฝฯฯฮฝ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
|
|
All I know is that ads on fileshare sites used to just flash titties. Now they have full-on hardcore gifs in my face when I'm trying to find a new album. I, for one, welcome the decline of our civilization.
|
OpenQwerty
Stranger



Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 162
Last seen: 7 hours, 6 minutes
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Middleman]
#18916191 - 10/01/13 01:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I still disagree with the hypothesis of the existence of any link between porn addiction and it's claimed negative effects. Of course, I'm not a sociologist , but as of now I didn't know any ( wide enough) statistic and comparative study between (for example) the sexual life of the (average) people that don't watch porn and the sexual life of the (average) people who do it.
The article in the huffingtonpost quoted by MarkostheGnostic, as well as other similar articles, simply show that there are people that feel their porn addiction as negative and that they are trying to stop it. The claimed benefit are only based on their feeling, and we can also easily observe that in a field where the โsense of guiltโ (justified or not) is often overwhelming ...every โway outโ will lead to benefits, but I suppose that it's caused by the feeling linked to the action, not by the action โby itselfโ.
I can admit that: a) if you are not able to discern between reality and fantasy ...watching porn is not for you; b) if you are used to masturbate more than 2 times at day ...you may have a problem; and c) if you โfeel yourself guiltyโ when you watch porn and/or when you masturbate, maybe it's better to stop.
I'm also open to admit that the 99% of the pornography is bullshit and so on, but โฆfor to reply directly to the quoted article:
a) There is not a demonstrable cause-effect connection between porn addiction and depression and/or anxiety and/or other psychological problems(as long as you don't โfeel yourself guiltyโ of your habits).
b)To find a (worthy) partner may be difficult, doesn't matter if you watch porn or not.
c)The quality of sex in a relationship is not closely relate to your porn addiction. Other factors have a greater impact (of course, as long as you are not absolutely exhausted from your solitary activities).
d)If we are talking about people without other psychological problems...it's quite hard (at least: for me) to imagine a situation where the porn addiction of a person โmake a big differenceโ in his/her life.
Now I would like to add something else: in the course of history the definition of โwhat is pornography and what is notโ, is continuously changed. Even the feeling related to masturbation are changed (and are still changing).
My point is: we should avoid summary judgments in a field where it's really difficult to find โ empirical factsโ... And where every inquiry will -at the best- only give us a photograph of a phenomenon, not its analysis.
|
Penelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic



Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
Loc: magic sugarcastle
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: OpenQwerty]
#18917002 - 10/01/13 04:08 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I agree most of the research seems to be correlative, not causative (in terms of whether porn causes harm to individuals and/or society). I think it is, like most things, a sign of compounded issues. In the example I gave of the family who disintegrated because the dad was a porn addict, he wouldn't have neglected his family if he wasn't watching porn and that seems causative - but at the same time, he probably felt resentment or had a propensity for addiction that he wasn't self-regulating. Most healthy, well adjusted individuals don't develop addictions, right? Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.
I do want to mention that I've been suspicious in the past that guys do certain things because they saw it on a porno. So just like, maybe that's a more subtle version of "distinguishing reality from fakery."
--------------------
full blown human
|
i like cow poo
Nature Lover


Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 4,041
Loc: Mother Nature's Vagina
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
|
Do you have stories? If you do then do tell do tell
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
|
Most healthy, well adjusted individuals don't develop addictions, right? Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.
No, it's not wishful thinking. Healthy people do not allow themselves to become addicted. They wield (figuratively) Manjushri's 'Sword of Discriminating Wisdom' that cuts at the very root of inordinate attachment. Addiction is slavery, and only the free are truly healthy, which is to say, 'whole,' or further, etymologically - holy. Bt this latter word, I do not mean pious, I mean whole, as in complete to the degree that they are in balance. Balance is not the same as being "well adjusted" either. I am balanced between the functions of Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, and Intuiting. The particular 'warp-n-woof' of my personality is INTP (according to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator), so, the opposite functions (E,S,F,J), my 'inferior functions,' must be intentionally balanced on a regular basis. I know "well adjusted" (to society) people who are shallow, robotic, and downright boring IMO.
Personally, I much prefer a Bohemian element in friends. I hate to admit it, but the apparently normal 'family guy' usually is so governed by the socio-biological imperatives to work for his family, that he has no time in his life for wonderment beyond marvelling at the birth and growth of his children. His female correlate is often so identified with motherhood, that she becomes invasive in her child's life to the point of the "emotional incest syndrome." Both genders can become hovering "helicopter parents," and/or they can become totally identified with (read, addicted to) their career roles too. I know a wealthy personal injury attorney who boasts that all of his friends are "doctors and lawyers." Suffice to say, we are not friends. On the other hand, Bohemians can be unbalanced in their own ways, but if one looks closely, imbalance is a failed attempt to become balanced, whole. It is the "Twinkyยฎ diet," wherein no matter how many you eat, you're gonna die of malnutrition. The same is true of every addiction - they are all self-destructive of freedom, and freedom is Life. I was read this poem way back in grade school. It is classic from 1897, perhaps you know it:
'Richard Cory' - by Edwin Arlington Robinson
Whenever Richard Cory went down town, We people on the pavement looked at him: He was a gentleman from sole to crown, Clean favored, and imperially slim.
And he was always quietly arrayed, And he was always human when he talked; But still he fluttered pulses when he said, "Good-morning," and he glittered when he walked.
And he was rich โ yes, richer than a king โ And admirably schooled in every grace: In fine, we thought that he was everything To make us wish that we were in his place.
So on we worked, and waited for the light, And went without the meat, and cursed the bread; And Richard Cory, one calm summer night, Went home and put a bullet through his head.
-------------------- ฮณฮฝแฟถฮธฮน ฯฮฑแฝฯฯฮฝ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/02/13 11:35 AM)
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
|
i was reading that huffpost link...did anyone see the pictures of pornstars before and after makeup at the bottom?
HOLY SHIT...that's all i can say. it's insane to just see how modified the women are from their natural appearances. it's like they airbrush these normal, (some even old and raggedy looking!) women into looking like flawless 10s...
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111] 3
#18921557 - 10/02/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I wish porn would give people unrealistic expectations. Unfortunately porn watchers are not turned off by real people else the population would be declining. I often see many hideous, fat women (and men) with a half-dozen kids in tow.
--------------------
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I wish porn would give people unrealistic expectations. Unfortunately porn watchers are not turned off by real people else the population would be declining. I often see many hideous, fat women (and men) with a half-dozen kids in tow.
If anything porn lowers people's standards, drastically
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
You watching that granny site again?
--------------------
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
|
Staged, STAGED laugh-now.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: You watching that granny site again?
I've moved down to necrophilia
|
mr sniffles
expert textpert


Registered: 06/03/13
Posts: 1,663
|
|
i watch porn, analyze and reflect on what the woman really feels, how authentic it is, and i only jerk it when it is not more than 30% staged. i like to think porn increased my feelings for empathy in real life as now that i have concentrated so much on these subtle emotions distinguishing between fake and real porn i am quite sensitive to the subtleties in the moods of people around me and build tact with them by reinforcing their comfortableness.
i dont really get hard ons from really fake porns anymore, just an awkward sensation in my throat.
--------------------
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: mr sniffles] 1
#18922978 - 10/02/13 07:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
i think i'm gonna stop watching porn, i'm getting pretty sick of it. it must be really addictive because it's the only habit in my entire life that i've tried to give up, but haven't been able to stop.
i think it's because the porno images get imprinted into your visual memory which makes it hard as fuck to give up. all you gotta do is think of ONE hot porno chick and it triggers the urge to whack off to her scenes.
and unlike alot of addictive habits, porn is FREE and widely accessible. it's just such a cheap rush and so easy to obtain. that's why it's so hard to stop watching once it becomes a habit.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111] 1
#18922991 - 10/02/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
It's like food addiction. You got to eat every day and so must face it every day.
It's hard to keep from feeling sexual when you are young.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18923014 - 10/02/13 07:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
i'm just sick of depending on porn as a primary sexual outlet. it's kind of depressing.
also, looking at those pictures of pornstars without makeup sort of shatters the illusion of it all. these "perfect babes" are just normal women who are air-brushed to look immaculate. there's nothing real about any of it whatsoever.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111] 2
#18923077 - 10/02/13 07:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Well that's not quite true. They are selling the illusion of the ultimate sexual willing partner of course but they are real people having real sex. It's just choreographed to hell. I've had sexual experiences that could make it into some of those vids.
But it is depressing I guess in several ways but what isn't. Having a gf isn't usually a bed of roses either. You can end up really miserable just trying to get laid by a real person. There's some amazing strings attached to real relationships and sometimes that's not fucking worth it imo. So maybe you should count your blessings before you give up on the whole thing.
If you have a good imagination and can visualize well you really don't need much porn. You can create lots of great shit right in your head. But of course the best thing would be to find that lover that you really connect with and are totally attracted to and all. It's just rare imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander]
#18923225 - 10/02/13 08:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
relationships > porn, but like you said...not exactly easy to find one that works on all levels.
porn is addictive as shit though and i stand by that.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111]
#18923253 - 10/02/13 08:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
If you're an addictive type. I'm not sure it's true for everyone. I'm an addictive type and get addicted to anything that feels good. Course I'm 60+ now and porn doesn't hold the same interest it used to but then neither does having a gf. More trouble then it's worth ime.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111]
#18923433 - 10/02/13 09:13 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
resonant111 said: i was reading that huffpost link...did anyone see the pictures of pornstars before and after makeup at the bottom?
HOLY SHIT...that's all i can say. it's insane to just see how modified the women are from their natural appearances. it's like they airbrush these normal, (some even old and raggedy looking!) women into looking like flawless 10s...
The myth from one of the apocryphal books of Enoch, was that angelic beings, fallen angels as it were, called The Watchers, taught the 'black arts' which included the use of cosmetics. This, along with other magickal 'enchantments,' and the alchemical arts of metallurgy and hence weapon-making, all contributed to the fall of humankind. I have always been fascinated by make-overs, and my own wife is no exception. Before and after can be mind-blowing. Of course, if I ever posted a before pic anywhere on the net, and my wife ever found out about it, nobody would ever hear from me again.
-------------------- ฮณฮฝแฟถฮธฮน ฯฮฑแฝฯฯฮฝ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (11/19/13 03:04 PM)
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
|
I once took a gf on vacation to Florida. Before work she spent 2-3 hours on her hair every day. I thought it would be different while on vacation. WRONG! Just to go to the beach I had to wait half a fucking day for her to get the perfect look.
Fuggetaboutit!
--------------------
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
|
Everyone we knows, knows that my wife spends an inordinate amount of time in 'her' bathroom. I had to stop using it altogether years ago, the one in the bedroom, even in the middle of the night, and so I painted the guest bathroom blue, and put my boy stuff in it, like Jerry Garcia picture and Dead Head Parking tin sign over the toilet. And as we get older, the time she spends doing stuff in there gets longer. To make things worse, she listens to NPR in there, and sort of goes into some motionless samadhi when she becomes rapt in a story. As bright as she is, she can't seem to do her toilette and listen to the radio at the same time. I learned to meditate during female get-ready time as far back as 1975. One particularly memorable girl's father stooped down and whispered, "Does this help?" I think he had the same situation with his wife I imagine. It's ubiquitous, the Eternal Femine has us waiting for what seems like Eternity.
-------------------- ฮณฮฝแฟถฮธฮน ฯฮฑแฝฯฯฮฝ - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 17,257
Loc: Geospatial inversion.
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111]
#18924488 - 10/03/13 04:35 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
resonant111 said: i'm just sick of depending on porn as a primary sexual outlet. it's kind of depressing.
also, looking at those pictures of pornstars without makeup sort of shatters the illusion of it all. these "perfect babes" are just normal women who are air-brushed to look immaculate. there's nothing real about any of it whatsoever.
|
BoomerMan420
Stranger



Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 1,641
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Beanhead]
#18924517 - 10/03/13 05:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah make-up is fucked.
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended


Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Beanhead]
#18924664 - 10/03/13 06:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
There is some real shit out there. I always wondered why and am quite disappointed that porn never focuses on female orgasm. Really disappointing. Anyway I've found that when the element of reality is actual exclusively for the female its a huge turn on. REAL PLEASURE should be the focus.
Expert Guide to the G-Spot is a good one. And lesbian porn.
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: There is some real shit out there. I always wondered why and am quite disappointed that porn never focuses on female orgasm. Really disappointing. Anyway I've found that when the element of reality is actual exclusively for the female its a huge turn on. REAL PLEASURE should be the focus.
Expert Guide to the G-Spot is a good one. And lesbian porn.
i've always wondered why there's isn't any tantric porn of two people making meditative love. i saw this documentary on this tantric couple once and it was honestly the first time in my life i saw two people actually make slow, blissful LOVE to each other rather than just fucking the shit out of each other. they were doing the yab-yum position which you will NEVER see in a porno movie.
forgot the name of that doc tho, it was pretty cool. they should show that in sex ed cuz it's like legitimate lovemaking.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111]
#18925346 - 10/03/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Icelander] 1
#18925361 - 10/03/13 11:03 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
i feel like porn almost purposely tries to make sex dirty and shocking because that idea has been embedded into the human consciousness by religion for centuries. so instead of people innocently making love we get videos of prostitutes getting drilled in multiple holes at once, screaming in pain, and getting jizzed on. that's why porn is fucked up lol.
and that's also why it's addictive...cuz they make sex as exaggerated as possible to keep you hooked.
--------------------
|
Memories



Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111] 1
#18925364 - 10/03/13 11:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
resonant111 said:
Quote:
FishOilTheKid said: There is some real shit out there. I always wondered why and am quite disappointed that porn never focuses on female orgasm. Really disappointing. Anyway I've found that when the element of reality is actual exclusively for the female its a huge turn on. REAL PLEASURE should be the focus.
Expert Guide to the G-Spot is a good one. And lesbian porn.
i've always wondered why there's isn't any tantric porn of two people making meditative love. i saw this documentary on this tantric couple once and it was honestly the first time in my life i saw two people actually make slow, blissful LOVE to each other rather than just fucking the shit out of each other. they were doing the yab-yum position which you will NEVER see in a porno movie.
forgot the name of that doc tho, it was pretty cool. they should show that in sex ed cuz it's like legitimate lovemaking.
I could dig it.
The stereotypical porno really doesn't turn me on. It looks rather ludicrous IMO.
Huge fake tits, swollen lips, bleached hair, violent sex, etc...
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111]
#18925367 - 10/03/13 11:06 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
resonant111 said: i feel like porn almost purposely tries to make sex dirty and shocking because that idea has been embedded into the human consciousness by religion for centuries. so instead of people innocently making love we get videos of prostitutes getting drilled in multiple holes at once, screaming in pain, and getting jizzed on. that's why porn is fucked up lol.
and that's also why it's addictive...cuz they make sex as exaggerated as possible to keep you hooked.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: resonant111] 1
#18925392 - 10/03/13 11:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
and that's also why it's addictive...cuz they make sex as exaggerated as possible to keep you hooked.
There is the factor that you will always seek out more extreme or better porn and the frustration that you will never get the trashy divine girl, this is based on exaggeration.
But in the end addiction lies in what I wrote previously in this thread IMO:
Instead of releasing your anger and frustration over the shitty and frustrating existence or society we live in, you release it looking at porn just like men portrayed in porn movies. Easy and simple quick fixes to peoples issues equals big money.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
|
resonant111
left โ right

Registered: 03/02/11
Posts: 1,952
Loc: IL
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
|
i agree
--------------------
|
Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 17,257
Loc: Geospatial inversion.
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
|
|
Political Notes 124, Defending Pornography (1996), by Danny Frederick
Discerning this because the author is male is sexist. My opinion stems from the sado-masochistic part which really does not correlate with any of the points made by Anne. Roles differ though it's not prominent in general.
To answer your earlier question; it has been inspirational to try out a few things, I like to try new things. Sorry for the bump, found it an interesting read.
Edited by Beanhead (11/17/13 06:44 PM)
|
eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--



Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 24 days, 20 hours
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: Beanhead]
#19150100 - 11/17/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Porn is just Mtv without clothes on.
-------------------- ...or something
|
peaking
Stranger
Registered: 11/17/13
Posts: 2
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
|
Re: Porn: For Better or Worse [Re: eve69]
#19150261 - 11/17/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Exactly, you get more and more addicted, what you first got off to doesn't do it anymore so you get to more extreme and crazy things, eventually tranny and who knows what. Porn is great but you have to control it.
|
|