|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
chris_kelvin
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 5
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1979310 - 10/04/03 03:31 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
This thread is full of wild speculation and guesses. There is no need, after all a whole lot of information can be accessed on the internet by anoyne, and even more information can be found in university libraries. Why speculate on things that have been looked into? Here is the abstract of the reference behind what Shulgin wrote in TIHKAL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...p;dopt=Abstract: J. Basic Microbiol. 1989;29(6):347-52. Biotransformation of tryptamine derivatives in mycelial cultures of Psilocybe. Gartz J. Institut fur Biotechnologie der AdW, Leipzig. Mycelial cultures of Psilocybe cubensis capable of forming psilocybin and psilocin de novo display a high capacity for hydroxylation of tryptamine derivatives at the 4-position. A specific biotransformation of added synthetic N,N-diethyl-tryptamine was found. Thus high amounts of 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (up to 3.3%) and a minor quantity of 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (0.01-0.8%) were isolated from fruiting bodies of Psilocybe cubensis in corresponding experiments. This is the first example of a directed biosynthesis of tryptamine substances by fungi. An effective biotransformation of N-methyltryptamine was also demonstrated with surface cultures of Psilocybe semilanceata. Baeocystin, a possible natural precursor of psilocybin, was detected and quantified in the biomasses. No alkaloids could be found in the culture medium. Now, what does it mean if there is no alkaloids found in the culture medium, if alkaloids were added there in the first place considering that high amounts of 4-OH-DET were produced? According to the paper the culture Gartz used was a cow dung/rice grain (2:1) mixture with dry weight of 13.5 g suspended into double amount of 0.25 mM solution of N,N-diethylamine hydrochloride, which means that there was about 1.7 grams of DET.HCl dissolved in 27 mL of water. The percentages of alkaloids per dry weight isolated from five consecutive flushes were: 1. 2.5 % 4-OH-DET, 0 % 4-phosphoryloxy-DET; 2. 0.2 %, 0.8 %; 3. 3.1 %, 0.01 %; 4. 3.3 %, 0 %; 5. 2.1 %, 0.02 %. Also, another abstract on the subject: Planta Medica, vol. 55, p. 249-250 (1989) Biotransformation of Tryptamine in Fruiting Mycelia of Psilocybe cubensis Jochen Gartz Mycelial cultures of Psilocybe cubensis, with the ability to form psilocybin and psilocin de-novo, also hydroxylated and methylated fed tryptamine to give psilocin in up to 3.3 % dry mass of the obtained fruit bodies. By using HPLC and TLC, it was found that these mushrooms contain only a small amount of psilocybin (0.01-0.2 % dry mass). The values of psilocin are the highest described in any mushrooms. The following patents (http://www.espacenet.com) by mr. Gartz are also interesting and related on the subject, even though they are in german. Other patents by Herr Gartz might be worth checking out too. DD265636, DD273449, DD287053 Also, the following reference is interesting indeed, although it is apparent the information it contains cannot be applied directly to mycelial cultures. If it was, the poor uptake and incorporation of DMT might be considered contradictory to the results Gartz obtained, as DMT and DET are chemically quite close to each other: Biosynthesis of Psilocybin Part II. Incorporation of Labeled Tryptamine Derivatives; Agurell, S. and Eilsson, L.; Acta Chemica Scandinavica, vol. 22, p. 1210 (1968): https://www.rhodium.ws/pdf/psilocybin.biosynthesis-2.pdf Now mister theshiftingwalls, after giving supporting arguments on certain conjectures you made, there are a few things I must say: claiming that all of the DPT added to the substrate would be converted to 4-OH-DPT is, even still, a claim without proof as there are no measurements to back it up. You also seem to be sure of a lot of things you have no proof of. Yet, it is obvious you aren't an expert nor have you studied the subject thoroughly. Did you know that 4-OH-DPT is quite as hard to synthesize in the lab as psilocin? Every magic mushroom grower is making psychedelics that are hard to synthesize. And please could you stop using that silly PARANOIA-picture on the signature of your posts? It made reading this whole thread very annoying, and I'm sure you want people to read this thread. I also want to add a little disclaimer: mycology isn't my main interest and I am no expert in it either. I just happen to like information and science.:)
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: chris_kelvin]
#1979670 - 10/04/03 06:55 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
look mr.disclaimer: dont get your panties in a knot about the relatively unstudied population here. if you wanna go talk drug chemistry, there are lots on the-hive.ws on your level. let these guys have fun with their pictures and that because the main issue here is: this is a website for mushroom farmers, not chemistry geniuses. the contents of this post HAVE been discussed at large many a time in the past (www.the-hive.ws -> triptamine chemistry) and if you think you have something to contribute, by all means, go flash your well-worn refrences around there. this thread is not supposed to be a detailed discussion, it is simply a group of ameture science kids playing 'lets make trippy mushrooms!'
however: DPT HCl has never been analysed for its 4-hydroxylating capacity to my knowledge (now if youve got a refrence for THAT, then cool, but spouting that same old DET ref is not productive).
now, mr.soundmind: when you go about conducting your experiment, be sure to write EVERYTHING down. (ex: on 10/4/03, batch 1(jars 1-6) was innoculated with 1.5mL spore solution A in the oven top flow hood. some wetness was noted around the hole of jar 4 after removal of the syringe. possible contamination source? will keep note.) ya know? then post your running experiment here so that we can give feedback while it goes down. cool?
|
chris_kelvin
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 5
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1980188 - 10/04/03 11:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I agree, it is just a pity to see misinformation grow. I'm well aware of the Hive and I'm afraid it is a better place to discuss syntheses than applied mycology. Sorry for the arrogant post, cultural differences got the best of me. As a later addition to this message, I would also like to share the requested reference on the biotransformation of DPT to 4-OH-DPT. It was an east-german patent by Jochen Gartz I happened to miss at first. Here is the english abstract. Manufacture of tryptophan derivatives with higher fungi Gartz, Jochen Akademie der Wissenschaften der DDR Patent DD278600 (1990) By culturing Psilocybe, Panaeolus, Inocybe, Conocybe, and Pluteus on solid media containing 0.1-2% 3-(2-dialkylaminoethyl)-indole, 3-(2-dialkylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindoles can be prepared in high yield with little synthesis of other indole compounds. P. cubensis was cultured on a cow manure-straw-water mixture containing 3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)-indole.HCl. From 18 g mycelium, 420 mg 3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindole was isolated. No other indoles were detectable in the mycelium. 3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)indole.HCl is DPT.HCl and 3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindole is 4-OH-DPT. On the patent they add 0.5 grams of DPT.HCl on the substrate and isolate 420 milligrams of 4-OH-DPT (I assume it is the freebase) with column chromatography from 18 grams of dry mushrooms (not mycelium, it looks like whoever wrote the abstract made a mistake).
Edited by chris_kelvin (10/05/03 12:34 AM)
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: chris_kelvin]
#1981750 - 10/05/03 04:06 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
the ref. you provided is in german with "no english abstract available". it seems you can translate german: thats super-cool. and with the math correction for freebase percentage yields that works out to a 78.8% molar conversion, which is pretty fucking good considering the loss of yield one would expect through an extraction from a plant mass! nice ref! mad propz.
so, mr.soundmind, i would advise that you just go ahead and put all 1000mg of that DPT.HCl into your casing. by doing so, you can expect at least 79% of that DPT to be in your mush as the 4-OH analogue. also, you would have ONLY that in your mushrooms, making for some pretty exotic psychadellic shroomies.
too cool!
|
chris_kelvin
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 5
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1981866 - 10/05/03 05:12 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
The english abstract is taken from Chemical Abstracts, espacenet is full of stuff that cannot be found with its search engine because a lot of foreign language patents are stored there without a proper abstract or a title. I can translate german with the aid of a dictionary, but it takes time and effort. Checking out details is much easier.:)
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: chris_kelvin]
#1982305 - 10/05/03 08:33 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
sweet! well, im just gonna hafta get myself a library of those little things: french, german, israeli, chinese whatever!
kind of made sense what with downregulation at tryptohan decarboxylase and the demonstrated malleability of n,n-dialkyltryptamine 4-hydoxylase. i think ill do a project using this, but with a gram of n,n-diisopropyltryptamine hydrochloride, available online for $54.00 USD
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1982311 - 10/05/03 08:34 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
ann shulgin really loved that stuff. i think i might too.
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1982312 - 10/05/03 08:35 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
oh yeah, the ref for that enzyme stuff.
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/gregory/1042/index.html
"Attempted Molecular Cloning of Enzymes from the Psilocybin Biosynthesis Pathway in Psilocybe tampanensis"
|
chris_kelvin
Stranger
Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 5
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1984726 - 10/06/03 06:35 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Nice link, thank you!
|
evlovevlove
journeyman
Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 102
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: chris_kelvin]
#1987388 - 10/07/03 04:08 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Does anyone have a reference for the activity of 4-OH-DPT in humans?
I have not seen it.
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: evlovevlove]
#1988650 - 10/07/03 10:46 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
TIKHAL #20:
dosage: unknown Duration: unknown Qualitative comments: (20mg, orally) "possible threshold, nothing more".
for other ref's youll probably have to do some digging.
|
evlovevlove
journeyman
Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 102
Last seen: 9 years, 5 months
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1990476 - 10/08/03 03:18 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Well, I have seen that one, but it doesn't say much does it?
I would be careful being the first one to test this new product at higher (and most likely unmeasured) doses.
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: evlovevlove]
#1990846 - 10/08/03 05:35 PM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
so start at 20mg, and work up, doubling the dose until you feel a threshlold, then go up real slow afterthat.
why no measure? build yourself a mg scale. https://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/equipment/scale.html
|
zeronio
Stranger


Registered: 10/16/01
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Slovenia
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1991964 - 10/09/03 12:38 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Wow. That is a great link!
|
Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: zeronio]
#1992183 - 10/09/03 02:04 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
yeah, that is the Best Archive Ever. notice there is no mention of 4-HO-DPT or even DPT. this is virgin territory, only entered by a few human minds, since the time of the Nephilim and 5 foot tall phosphorescent mushrooms... anyway, dok said:
Quote:
now, mr.soundmind: when you go about conducting your experiment, be sure to write EVERYTHING down... then post your running experiment here so that we can give feedback while it goes down.
that will not be possible as i am not the experimenter, my friend living near Lago Maggiore in Switzerland is. he does not have internet access, but he does have a 5 Mpx digi cam, and he will be taking copious notes, so i will post results when i get them. anyway a quick Q: would it be better for him to use freebase in the casing than HCL?
|
doktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: Middleman]
#1992232 - 10/09/03 02:29 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
well of course he would still pH balance your casing. that is one of the experimental variables. he would have to make them identical, like all the other parameters.
|
Middleman

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1992252 - 10/09/03 02:55 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
you mean he would balance his casing... how should he go about that w/ out effecting the DPT? and what do you think about using freebase?
|
micro
bunbun has a gungun


Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: Middleman]
#1992724 - 10/09/03 08:43 AM (20 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
You want to use -HCl because it's water soluble.
-- Micro
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
|
TheHook
GrEeN HeAd
Registered: 03/06/05
Posts: 256
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: micro]
#4624933 - 09/06/05 09:15 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
what strains of mushrooms were these tested on?
if i were to add DMT into pan cyans could i expect similar results or is there a maximum alkaloid level (cyans are 4mg higher in psilocin than cubes)?
-------------------- I often come to many challenges and intimidations, but then I remember that you only live life once, one single time through, with no reruns or rehearsals. So just live the way you want and the best you can. Its easy.
|
puwtrip
spirit molecule

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 203
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: Middleman]
#4628567 - 09/07/05 01:03 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
that will not be possible as i am not the experimenter, my friend living near Lago Maggiore in Switzerland is.
sorry off topic but thats a cool place; visited for a few days at stresa and cannobio then just hopped over to ancona and back again. this was about 1 month ago. interesting to know people grow mushies out there.
|
|