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Anonymous

Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1930325 - 09/18/03 07:42 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)



psilocin and iprocin (4-ho-dipt) have the same general chemical structure as they're both 4-hydroxy analogs of tryptamines.  look at the pictures of each, the hydroxy, phosphorloxy and acetoxy (all 3 in the pic above) sections dont change from chem to chem aside from some facing different directions in some, but its still the same basic structure.  that big part on the left (the two hexagons mainly, but theres an arm that comes off too) of dpt and dmt is the basic tryptamine structure (couldnt find a pic :mad:), that too maintains the same basic structure from chem to chem.  if you look at baeocystin, its got a similar structure to psilocybin.  theyre both tryptamine based and have the same phosphorloxy structure.  Aside from the basic 4-XXX-XXT structure, i dont see your point with psilocybin and 4-ace-dipt.  that said, whats your point?  :confused: 


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: ]
    #1930377 - 09/18/03 08:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

4-HO-DiPT acts like psilocin (speeded fast thoughts trip). 4-ace-DiPT acts like psilocybin (mellow thinking trip).

See my point?


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1930537 - 09/18/03 08:54 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

i dont know about that, im pretty sure the acetoxy and phosphorloxy groups get broken down to hydroxy when they enter the stomach and go through all the enzymes. At least thats my understanding of psilocin and psilocybian. So i assume the same would happen with 4hodipt and 4acedipt.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: Infrared]
    #1930549 - 09/18/03 08:59 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

There is no proof of that...


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1930583 - 09/18/03 09:11 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

straight from thikal
"There are two generalizations implicit here, one of which I am quite at peace with, but the other is both complex and disturbing. The OK item is the casual equation between the hydroxy compound psilocin, the acetate ester, and the phosphate ester, psilocybin. As I had discussed in the CZ-74 to CEY-19 entries in 4-HO-DET, there is no proof that the ester goes to the indolol metabolically, but it is a good guess, and there have been no demonstrated differences in their pharmacology. Ditto here, with psilocin and psilocybin. I have explored both of them as pure chemicals, and I find them completely interchangeable as to their pharmacological properties"

so while there is no technical proof, both of the different compounds have nearly identical effects, and its is widely believed that they break down to the same compound in the human body. enough proof?


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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InvisibleJohn
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Registered: 08/08/03
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1930607 - 09/18/03 09:22 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

_shifting_ you should not make posts like this unless you truly know what your talking about, and all the info you have provided is pulled directly from things you read, which explains why your dodging any questions people ask, when the anwser isn't in the info you've read. Sorry but I wouldn't believe a word you said here, I do think this is intersting, but it's not your idea like you claim. I see your posts and the PM you sent me, and it dosn't seem like you know very much about chemistry or cultivation for that matter, this is just a warning to all those who read this.


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: John]
    #1930783 - 09/18/03 10:16 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

In theory...The upper limits of uptake are established by liquid culture.Alkyltryptamine x is incorporated into liquid media ph stabilized until the upper limit on concentration is reached w/o harming mycelial growth.a culture is grown to complete maturity in vitro and the mycelial mass filtered and weighed the liquid faction is then subjected to a rigorous A/B extraction and the remaining alkaloid weighed.There is now a baseline rough coefficient of uptake.Applied to a P/F style procedure fruits with the maximum opo4,and oh derivitives are produced.Chromatography yeilds relatively pure opo4 and oh derivitives of most alkyl tryptamines,and like psilocin and psilocybin the opo4 derivitives are consistantly more stable.A phosphorus ehanced substrate maximizes the production of the more stable substances.To whoever was considering adding the acetoxy alkyl tryptamine save the step of the fungi cleaving the acetoxy group to add an oh or opo4,there is the possibility of unknown side reactions with the free acetoxy group free in vivo.
More work needs done to give more exact assay of resulting tryptamines,but using the fungal ezymatic systems via targeted substrate enhancement, is without doubt an easily accessed method of creating novel substances.Chromatography and discreet bioassay should reveal a number of unique and interesting substances using biosynthetic methods.Liqid culture of fungal biomass could lead to a new industry of recreational quasi-natural substances
Good Luck to the new gen who may investigate this!
WR:rasta:


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OfflineInfrared
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: whiterasta]
    #1930982 - 09/18/03 11:18 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

nicely put whiterasta.


--------------------
When chemistry is outlawed.. Only outlaws have chemistry:rainbowdrink:


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Anonymous

Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: Infrared]
    #1931243 - 09/19/03 12:31 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

agreed, ^5 for that wr


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: ]
    #1931270 - 09/19/03 12:45 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Very nice whiterasta.


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Invisiblepsyphon
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: whiterasta]
    #1931454 - 09/19/03 02:13 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:whiterasta :thumbup: :smile:

Your liquid culture idea gives me an idea.  I've seen it said numerous times that the standard liquid culture that is used by the OMC, namely dextrose/glucose/karo/honey, does not supply the nutrition required to produce the tryptamines.  For example, if some newbie mentions adam gottlieb's old "5000 doses..." tek, people explain that it wouldn't work.

I belive we can use this to our advantage.  One cool thing I see about liquid culture is the ability to completely control the nutrients used.  So we provide the culture with all the nutrients required for healthy mycelium; dextrose, carbs, proteins, some minerals, phosphorous, oxygen, maybe some lignin, but we specifically deprive the mycelium of anything that it could use to make tryptamines, except for the dpt or whatever we are experimenting with.  Perhaps a solid culture formula could be developed as well, as long as it is properly lacking, will colonize, and isn't too contaminate prone.

I supposed we'd have to be careful when deciding what proteins are provided as some may allow for the creation of the psilo's.  This causes me to think of a couple of questions though.  Does the organism actually have a natural inclination to make psiloc(yb)in, or does it just go tryptophan->tryptamine->dimethyltryptamine->psilo because methyl groups are the simplest?  (and is this the correct and only pathway?)  Perhaps the simplicity of methyl groups is the only natural inclination.  They just work with what they're given.  Since the shrooms don't come across exotic tryptamines in nature, the 4-HO analogs of exotics aren't found in the fruitbodies.  But if we give them only DPT, skipping some of the enzymatic steps, we should get only dpt or its analogs in the fruits. 

Then you have the choice of taking dpt analogs, or dmt analogs or combining them in the desired doses.  Grow some regular and some not and take however much of each you want.  You could even take two non-dmt analogs depending on what you put in.

Another question, where is the DMT in shrooms and why doesn't it cause effects from smoked shrooms?  Is it a salt?  Has anyone ever tried doing an a/b and smoking the extract?  This could be interesting...would it be possible to inhibit the enzymes that go beyond DMT, without inhibiting the ones leading to it?

Sorry for all the rambling and getting slightly off topic, all this biochemistry is quite interesting.  I hope there's some good chunks somewhere in there.  Since we're in this realm and in case anyone knows, here's an off topic yet related question: Does anyone know about the possible presence of tryptophan decarboxylase (as I assume it is called) in the organisms that survive pasteurization?  Thanks for any info, and thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, its become quite interesting.

oh..one more thing... "The track record is pretty well established with the oxygen-free analogue DPT, and it would be hard to imagine a loss of potency by incorporating the "psilocin signature", the 4-hydroxy group."  - Shulgin 


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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Anonymous

Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: psyphon]
    #1932081 - 09/19/03 10:37 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

psyphon said:
oh..one more thing... "The track record is pretty well established with the oxygen-free analogue DPT, and it would be hard to imagine a loss of potency by incorporating the "psilocin signature", the 4-hydroxy group." - Shulgin




well, even if there was no potency loss between dpt and 4-ho-dpt, it would still require ~75mg for a threshold dose and somwhere around 250 for a high level trip*. so youd still need more 4-ho-dpt to be produced than the amounts of psilocin and psilocybin combined in naturally growing mushrooms.

*according to shulgin, use of a 1.3mg/kg versus 1mg/kg IV simply prolonged the trip. unfortunately there was nothing on dose/response plateus with oral doses.

all information was found in tihkal


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: ]
    #1933496 - 09/19/03 07:01 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Then you would need to buy more DPT.


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1933503 - 09/19/03 07:05 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

It might covert or not. DPT or 4-HO-DPT. This is the big question.


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: ]
    #1936017 - 09/20/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

most strains of phalaris grass have been breeded to reduce the content of DMT, first under the assumption that it was the DMT which caused the 'staggers' symptome in grasing sheep when they ate it. once that theory had been discredited they continue to breed low-DMT phalaris grass for the purposes of making DMT harder to obtain. you would want to extract and quantify the concentration of DMT in your phalaris(which grows globally) before you put the grass in your substrate. however, phalaris has a very low conc. of DMT in aqny case (.10-.57% or so by dry weight)


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Invisiblepsyphon
mneumatic device

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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: psyphon]
    #1947049 - 09/24/03 05:24 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

bump?


--------------------
"The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes."
- Marcel Proust

I wish you all ceaselessly flowing moments of happiness.


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Offlineevlovevlove
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1947419 - 09/24/03 09:54 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

This is indeed an interesting post. However, I would like to add that the activity of 4-HO-DPT is not known, regardless of what theshiftingwalls says. And if 20 milligrams is maybe a threshold then I doubt this would be an appropriate method for testing out this new compound. (If something is reported as maybe a threshold dose this does not mean that magic is neccessarily around the corner.) If you have DPT, use it as DPT.

DiPT may be a more suitable project and it is just as available. The activity of 4-HO-DiPT is known and the dosage is close to 4-HO-DMT. I cannot say that it would be converted the same way as DET, but it certainly might. I would imagine that you would still be dealing with a primarily 4-HO-DMT trip coupled with some 4-HO-DiPT activity, but probably not that much. You might also get some residual unconverted DiPT activity, so you would be dealing with a psychedelic hodgepodge.


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Invisibletheshiftingwalls
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: evlovevlove]
    #1948258 - 09/24/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Psychedelic hodgepodge can be crazy :wink:.

Residual unconverted pure DiPT would not form in the fruit bodies. Maybe only in the myc, I guess.

So the mushrooms would contain 4-HO-DMT/4-HO-DiPT.

I think we all need to find out the activity of 4-HO-DPT before experimenting happens with DPT.


Also, DiPT would be great for this fruiting experiment.





Has anyone ever made 4-AcO-DMT? I guess the body would convert it to 4-HO-DMT when ingested :smile:.


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Offlineevlovevlove
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Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: theshiftingwalls]
    #1948369 - 09/24/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

theshiftingwalls said:
Residual unconverted pure DiPT would not form in the fruit bodies. Maybe only in the myc, I guess.




Why not? If the DiPT would have to get into the fruit bodies to be converted, wouldn't it make sense that some of it might make it into the fruitbody and not be converted. (Vermiculite can make it into the fruitbody.)


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Invisibledoktor_alternate
card-carryingAmateurMycologistsAnonymous member
Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: evlovevlove]
    #1948387 - 09/24/03 03:18 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

i have read that DiPT is converted quantitatively to its 4-OH analogue im myc, however, as i have no refrence for this, you might aswell take it as it is: a rumor.


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