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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Registered: 02/10/11
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Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. * 1
    #18892460 - 09/26/13 02:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

"During the twentieth century, we witnessed the atrocities of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Rwanda and other genocides, and even though the twenty-first century is only seven years old,(2007) we have already witnessed an ongoing genocide in Darfur and the daily horrors of Iraq. This has led to a common understanding of our situation, namely that modernity has brought us terrible violence, and perhaps that native peoples lived in a state of harmony that we have departed from, to our peril.

Here is an example from an op-ed on Thanksgiving, in the Boston Globe a couple of years ago, where the writer wrote, "The Indian life was a difficult one, but there were no employment problems, community harmony was strong, substance abuse unknown, crime nearly non-existent, what warfare there was between tribes was largely ritualistic and seldom resulted in indiscriminate or wholesale slaughter." Now, you're all familiar with this treacle. We teach it to our children. We hear it on television and in storybooks. Now, the original title of this session was, "Everything You Know Is Wrong," and I'm going to present evidence that this particular part of our common understanding is wrong, that, in fact, our ancestors were far more violent than we are, that violence has been in decline for long stretches of time, and that today we are probably living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence."




I'd like to hear the communities thoughts on this.
I personally find the evidence presented in this interesting, if not somewhat compelling.
It's something I've personally considered for years after my observations led me to the work the late anthropologist, Neil Whitehead who has extensive work on the nature of violence.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 1
    #18892583 - 09/26/13 03:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
"During the twentieth century, we witnessed the atrocities of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Rwanda and other genocides, and even though the twenty-first century is only seven years old,(2007) we have already witnessed an ongoing genocide in Darfur and the daily horrors of Iraq. This has led to a common understanding of our situation, namely that modernity has brought us terrible violence, and perhaps that native peoples lived in a state of harmony that we have departed from, to our peril.

Here is an example from an op-ed on Thanksgiving, in the Boston Globe a couple of years ago, where the writer wrote, "The Indian life was a difficult one, but there were no employment problems, community harmony was strong, substance abuse unknown, crime nearly non-existent, what warfare there was between tribes was largely ritualistic and seldom resulted in indiscriminate or wholesale slaughter." Now, you're all familiar with this treacle. We teach it to our children. We hear it on television and in storybooks. Now, the original title of this session was, "Everything You Know Is Wrong," and I'm going to present evidence that this particular part of our common understanding is wrong, that, in fact, our ancestors were far more violent than we are, that violence has been in decline for long stretches of time, and that today we are probably living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence."




I'd like to hear the communities thoughts on this.
I personally find the evidence presented in this interesting, if not somewhat compelling.
It's something I've personally considered for years after my observations led me to the work the late anthropologist, Neil Whitehead who has extensive work on the nature of violence.





I discovered this interesting "fact" a couple of years back and was surprised. I've had time to think on it and if it's true I have come to this conclusion.  First of all if this now is much better than the past and relatively peaceful that just points out to how lame humanity really is.  I see huge amounts of strife around me daily and not just physical but also emotional. And the loss of tribal connectedness etc, most likely makes humanity less happy even though less violent. How lame is that?  Finally any really major change for the good is likely so far down the human highway it that happens that it hardly matters for us living now and far into the future.  I guess I'm trying to say that this information hardly matters to me. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
    #18896936 - 09/27/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

From my own struggles, I would have to personally agree.

I really feel that strong familial ties are lost in the face of modernity.

It's left me with a group of friends that do not know how to be brothers and sisters, I really feel like a black sheep among black sheep in part for this reason.
I grew up with 2 brothers and a sister and we all went through hell together and do our best as the lost broken humans we are to lift each other up and understand each other...

A decrease in human violence may be one of the fruits of modernity born of cross cultural intellectual/empathetic tools, but increased interpersonal distress born of loss of direct contentedness is certainly a price we pay.

Cue Japanese suicide forest.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 1
    #18898395 - 09/27/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:

I really feel that strong familial ties are lost in the face of modernity.




That's a good thing in my opinion, it cuts off ties of arbitrary "responsibility" and allows much more room for personal growth / freedom. This is one of the best points about modern society in my opinion.


As far as the topic goes, power on this planet is very centralized at the moment and that's preventing a lot of world powers going into war. Historically speaking we're between WWII and a potential WWIII, that same centralized power which prevents smaller wars may well be exasperating the issue of a potential large scale war. Looking at where we are from the basis of the past few decades is very shallow and overlooks how broad history is, 100 years is barely worth mentioning let alone a few decades.
If war comes again - the real war everyone's been worried about since 1945, this will likely be the most violent century in history.

If it doesn't happen then I'd agree things are going in a good direction as far as violence (and many other things), hopefully it doesn't happen.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18898662 - 09/27/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18898740 - 09/27/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If it doesn't happen then I'd agree things are going in a good direction as far as violence (and many other things), hopefully it doesn't happen.

Psychological warfare lies in social status nonetheless and it doesn't decline - if we're looking at violence in a broader perspective. Human relation defined as peace on earth is peace of mind.


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18899222 - 09/27/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Repertoire89]
    #18899657 - 09/27/13 05:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:

I really feel that strong familial ties are lost in the face of modernity.




That's a good thing in my opinion, it cuts off ties of arbitrary "responsibility" and allows much more room for personal growth / freedom. This is one of the best points about modern society in my opinion.




At least for myself personally, the relationship I have with my family encourages rather than limits my personal growth. When afraid to look at myself or accept what is wrong with me, they are people I would avoid.
Even when hundreds of miles apart, we know that we are a phone call away from someone who will be open, honest and listen.

This is also something I openly extend to the members of this community.

I'm lucky to have been through circumstances with my family, albeit difficult ones that have helped us to be honest with one another and not passive aggressively ignore each-others demons and let each other get away with the ill effect they have on ourselves and the world around us, consequently learning to be more honest and responsible with ourselves.

This is what I mean when I say I have a group of friends who do not know how to be brothers and sisters.
And I feel this is why I have friends in their 30's who are struggling with things I came to terms with in my late teens, they did/do not have that support system in which engenders honest independence through responsibility for self.
I recognize this in the ways I personally have floundered from not having a healthy human system to encourage such growth.

Anthropologically speaking, many tribes have had social structures that encouraged this kind of introspection, sharing/healing and growing.

I see virtually none of this in our modern culture and to me, it's fruits are obvious.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 2
    #18902201 - 09/28/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

our ancestors WERE far more violent than we are. in ancient rome the average family's idea of a family outing was to hit up the Colosseum and watch lions eat christians. now we just watch a bunch of huge guys smash into each other.

there appears to be a trajectory to human development, whether nietzsche and his followers want to call it progress or not


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
    #18902243 - 09/28/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

We are capable of destroying this planet and every living matter on it with nuclear weapons, as per individual yet public violence, women are being stoned to death because they were raped.

I have several links to horrifying violence recorded on camera if you're interested. 10 year old children beheading the enemy?


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18902254 - 09/28/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
We are capable of destroying this planet and every living matter on it with nuclear weapons, as per individual yet public violence, women are being stoned to death because they were raped.

I have several links to horrifying violence recorded on camera if you're interested. 10 year old children beheading the enemy?



it's still better than it was dude. trust me I remember my past lives and shit


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
    #18902286 - 09/28/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

it's still better than it was dude.

Warfare in the past century disagrees.

trust me I remember my past lives and shit

Don't you find violence to be sad or are you serious?


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18902300 - 09/28/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

violence is almost always sad but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact. I can have feelings and still assess facts without there being any contradiction


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OfflineMemories
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18902362 - 09/28/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Nice link Raven Gnosis! I really like Steven Pinker.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
    #18902384 - 09/28/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Raven Gnosis said:
Anthropologically speaking, many tribes have had social structures that encouraged this kind of introspection, sharing/healing and growing.

I see virtually none of this in our modern culture and to me, it's fruits are obvious.




I've studied enough history to care little for the family structure, from what I've seen around me and read of our past there are few families which I would consider to be encouraging of individual freedom or emotional stability. More than anything what seems to come with closer families is a sense of 'responsibility' and claustrophobia



Quote:

morrowasted said:
it's still better than it was dude. trust me I remember my past lives and shit




Theoretical personal experience based off subjectively interpreted OBEs does not qualify as evidence anywhere. For one to even trust their own subjective experiences is a slippery slope into delusion.

As it stands I think in western society we face less violence, in the rest of the world more, and the question of WWIII hanging over our heads could tip the scale very far. Overall though, if no major wars occur and a new energy source is found then as technology progresses over the next few hundred years I suspect the world will be in a much better place as a whole.


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
    #18902523 - 09/28/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

violence is almost always sad

Yet you laugh it off with silliness, unless you honestly believe in past-life's.

but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact.

In total per capita for the past century you may be right but please provide quality source and what periods you have in mind.

I think you're wrong if we base this on specific war-times in the past century. 4-5% of human population on earth was killed during WW2, Mao did his fair share, WW1 as well, Second Sino-Japanese War. There has been so many ultra-violent wars in the past century I doubt you will find the same violence of large scale in previous centuries, even per capita.

There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18902580 - 09/28/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

did you even watch the video?


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
    #18902602 - 09/28/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

No, I didn't. Please correct me where I am wrong with written words.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18902665 - 09/28/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

My sentiments are based upon data like the data presented in the video. Just watch it. You are not likely to die at the hands of another human. There was a time when you were. It's that simple.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
    #18902718 - 09/28/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I discovered this interesting "fact" a couple of years back and was surprised. I've had time to think on it and if it's true I have come to this conclusion.  First of all if this now is much better than the past and relatively peaceful that just points out to how lame humanity really is.  I see huge amounts of strife around me daily and not just physical but also emotional. And the loss of tribal connectedness etc, most likely makes humanity less happy even though less violent. How lame is that?  Finally any really major change for the good is likely so far down the human highway it that happens that it hardly matters for us living now and far into the future.  I guess I'm trying to say that this information hardly matters to me. :sad:




I think you're dead right dude. What a shame. :sad:


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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