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Offlinekrypto2000
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Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate?
    #18902304 - 09/28/13 10:59 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Obviously the mushrooms need to colonize the bulk substrate and the tape and later polyfill is to, well, the tape traps the CO2 in and the tape and polyfill keep contaminants out and the polyfill also acts as a filter (as once it's inserted contaminant spores will increase as FAE increases.

However I was thinking about it and if you had the proper moisture content then by just dumping everything into the mono and not taping or stuffing the holes the top would quickly dry out which itself would be a contaminant barrier and your CO2 will still pool in the bottom, it's not as if the holes are underneat or even in line with the substrate. I'd imagine no one has tried this to know one way or the other, we've just been doing the old tested methods, but logically I can't see why it wouldn't work. If anything you may simply have to mist it more after it's colonized, but that seems safer than having too much water and as we all know fresh air and circulation will help reduce spore loads anyway. I feel like locking it up until it's fully consolidated is equivalent of putting a lid on a pot when growing a plant and waiting for the roots to filly consolidate the pot before we let the foilage start to grow.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902324 - 09/28/13 11:03 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:confused: I really have no idea what you are trying to say here


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18902373 - 09/28/13 11:15 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

psillyshroomer said:
:confused: I really have no idea what you are trying to say here



OP is stating that he theorizes that spawning to bulk WHILE not stuffing/covering the holes during colonization could be successful.  Truth be told, it probably could.  There is very little research, and I have seen a few users state that fruiting conditions be introduced right after spawning to bulk substrates.

There are reasons why the monotub works the way it does.  I am quite thrilled with how they work, and have no desire to alter a system that promotes 100% colonization in 7-10 days, with no misting, fanning or even thinking about.  It could be we use monotubs the way we do because it simply is easier.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
    #18902383 - 09/28/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Whippy said:
Quote:

psillyshroomer said:
:confused: I really have no idea what you are trying to say here



OP is stating that he theorizes that spawning to bulk WHILE not stuffing/covering the holes during colonization could be successful.  Truth be told, it probably could.  There is very little research, and I have seen a few users state that fruiting conditions be introduced right after spawning to bulk substrates.

There are reasons why the monotub works the way it does.  I am quite thrilled with how they work, and have no desire to alter a system that promotes 100% colonization in 7-10 days, with no misting, fanning or even thinking about.  It could be we use monotubs the way we do because it simply is easier.




Well said whippy. Why would you want to change something that works so good. Also I have always heard you want high co2 levels for colonization


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18902389 - 09/28/13 11:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

When you make a mono you spawn your grain jars to a bulk substrate in a monotub. Then you tape up your monos holes, wait for a couple weeks to consolidate, remove tape and stuff with polyfill. What I'm saying is I don't see a reason for the tape or the polyfill in the process, just leave the holes open and I bet you mushrooms will be just fine.

The substrate is pasturized, the spawn is fully colonized. A properly pasturized substrate will not contam for at least the period of time it takes the spawn to spread to and consolidate it. The air pocket above the substrate in the monotub is the same exact air that is outside of the monotub so opening the holes will not introduce anything new to the environment. Your GE was previously the crack between the lid and the mono, now your GE becomes the holes in the monotub, otherwise nothing changes. The only difference is there is less work involved, less materials involved, and you can more easily view and smell the substrate through what not have become perfectly clear windows in the monotub. I only see good things coming from it, the worst case is the substrate would dry out near these windows and you'd have no mycilium growth, but that's better than contaminants which will overtake the substrate and you can always mist it if there's too much moisture loss or even tape up a part of the window to limit the FAE and thus evaporation.


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902404 - 09/28/13 11:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

First off you want high co2 levels for colonization. Second off if you don't stuff your holes properly while fruiting you humidity will be way too low. Your tub will dry out and any mushrooms you do get will have terrible looking cracked caps


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18902432 - 09/28/13 11:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

CO2 is heavier than air so it will always sink and since your monos holes are above the substrate level I don't see why the CO2 would go anywhere. In nature we don't put boxes around our outdoor patches do we? There's *plenty* of FAE going on outside directly above the substrate, why would there be any difference inside? In regards to keeping the humidity up I've already addressed that, you either tape up your holes to limit the FAE, and thus evaporation/humidity, or you can mist it, basically no different than what we currently are doing. It just seems like it would help to me; I think I might try a small tub this way and see what happens. Imagine if everyone stuffed all the holes in their SGFC with polyfill. Nothing, it'd just be a waste of time.


Edited by krypto2000 (09/28/13 11:30 AM)


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902442 - 09/28/13 11:31 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If co2 sunk out of air then when you laid in the floor you would die! cO2 mixes with air! It does not sink out!


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OfflineStromriderM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18902451 - 09/28/13 11:35 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You ever heard of a mono shotgun hybrid?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902483 - 09/28/13 11:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
well, the tape traps the CO2 in and the tape and polyfill keep contaminants out and the polyfill also acts as a filter (as once it's inserted contaminant spores will increase as FAE increases.





Not quite. First of all, the polyfill provides almost no filtering on a monotub.  Remember, the top just sits there and has a huge unfiltered gap all the way around the edges.

CO2 does not sink to the bottom.  CO2 mixes with the air which is also being heated by the colonizing substrate.  The currents are thus in through the polyfill, and out(mostly) through the gap in the lid.  The polyfill mostly serves to slow down the rate of air/gas exchange, thus keeping humidity and CO2 above ambient.

If CO2 settled to the lowest point we'd all be dead from power plant and auto, etc., emissions.  Instead, CO2 can be measured at the top of the highest mountains.
RR


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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18902485 - 09/28/13 11:45 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Sure it mixes, but if you had a closed room, never opened the doors or windows, eventually the C02 would settle on the bottom. Opening the doors and windows creates circulation, this keeps things clean. I'd even wager to guess if houses had no doors and only windows you would have a higher CO2 concentration on the ground, even if you open the windows all the time.

Quote:

From the shroomery grow guide:
"As the CO2 builds up, growth of the fungus slows down.
Indeed, the mycelium benefits from increased CO2 during
its vegetative growth stage, but eventually it gets too
high for optimum growth. If you invert the jars, the CO2
can drain out and is replaced by fresh air. This will
speed the colonization of the substrate."




There is a known benefit to limiting, or venting, the amount of CO2. I cannot find the reason the mushrooms produce CO2, I suspect it is either simply a byproduct or even a means to choke out competing pathogens, but in either case venting it will help because FAE decreases spore load, fungal, and mold growths, and if it's a byproduct you certainly would see a benefit in venting it out. It may also even carry contaminant spores with it outside of the substrate, just guessing on that part though.


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OfflineHazanko
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Stromrider]
    #18902499 - 09/28/13 11:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

so basically are you talking about a shotgun FC?

also, mushrooms and plants are quite different, you can't really compare them. If you going by that logic, you could say ''mushrooms can grow without light, why can't I just grow my weed plants in a room that's pitch-black 24/7?''


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902524 - 09/28/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Just forget about CO2 settling.  In all practicality it will never happen except under extremely controlled conditions that you will not be able to replicate.


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Mush4Brains]
    #18902632 - 09/28/13 12:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hazanko said:
so basically are you talking about a shotgun FC?





Not a shotgun fruiting chamber because a shotgun would have holes all over the substrate, though a shotgun could likely be adapted with less holes to accomplish the same thing I'm talking about. I just feel like we're doing extra work that serves no purpose.

Quote:

Hazanko said:
also, mushrooms and plants are quite different, you can't really compare them. If you going by that logic, you could say ''mushrooms can grow without light, why can't I just grow my weed plants in a room that's pitch-black 24/7?''




I feel like everything is the same :smirk:. I for one believe I could grow marijuana in a root without light to be fully honest, just as I can grow mushrooms in the desert surrounded by sand, but both of those conditions are obviously moving away from the mushrooms natural environment. What I'm trying to do with this idea is move closer to it.

Quote:

Mush4Brains said:
Just forget about CO2 settling.  In all practicality it will never happen except under extremely controlled conditions that you will not be able to replicate.




I was never focused on it, you guys brought it up, I was merely saying why I don't think the CO2 matters and losing some wouldn't make a difference in the consolidation process.


Edited by krypto2000 (09/28/13 12:28 PM)


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InvisibleHypnotoadCroaked
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902647 - 09/28/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
I just feel like we're doing extra work that serves no purpose.




The amount of labor/work involved with placing 4 pieces of duct tape, only to remove them in 2 weeks is next to nil. 

However, making a monotub certainly takes less effort than a SGFC.  My monos have 4 holes.....while SGFC have a shit ton more. 

There really is little or no effort exerted with a monotub.  I understand your desire to do less, but it really don't get any more easy than where it is now.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902659 - 09/28/13 12:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

krypto2000 said:
Sure it mixes, but if you had a closed room, never opened the doors or windows, eventually the C02 would settle on the bottom.




No, it wouldn't.  It would remain in suspension in the air.

The reason we want a high CO2 level during colonization is because it helps prevent the mycelium from consuming too much of the substrate.  Thus, it's available during fruiting. Mycelium uses air and produces CO2 as a byproduct just as we humans do.  In fact, fungi are more closely related to us than to plants.
RR


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OfflineHazanko
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: krypto2000]
    #18902684 - 09/28/13 12:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm by no means an expert, but the way I see it, providing high co2 levels is tricking the mycellium into thinking that it's still underground, and thus should be spreading until it reaches the ''surface'' where co2 levels are lower and it starts to fruit. All we're doing is creating a better micro-climate for the mushrooms to grow quickly and properly. I could be wrong, but I have little doubt that you wouldn't be able to grow mushrooms in a more ''open'' container, but my guess is you'd end up with stunted mushroom growth because the mycellium is going to be tricked into fruiting much too early.

Like I said I could very well be wrong, but just using a little bit of logic, think about how mushrooms grow in the wild then try to best replicate that and improve upon it. It only makes sense to me, that once the mycellium detects lower co2 levels, it's ''realizing'' that it's reached the surface and should start sporulating. Natural selection would not really be a thing if all organisms had optimum conditions for growth, we're helping create optimum conditions by allowing the mycellium to gain full access to it's nutritional source before ''realizing'' it's reached the surface and should immediately make it's efforts to sporulate before it's defeated by nature.

Just brain storming here...


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Hazanko]
    #18902760 - 09/28/13 01:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think it would depend on the strain/even distribution of strains throughout the substrate, as well as the moisture content. If you had only one strain in the whole tub then it would colonize as much as it possible could before fruiting. If you had a bunch of different ones not evenly distributed (which really never happens *completely* anyway) then perhaps you may not get an even cannopy as all the strains would fruit at different times, but in whole you should still pull the same amount of mushies out of the tub, perhaps you just wouldn't have 'flushes' and instead a continuous picking. Seems more exciting to me though, more change every day and you always have fresh mushrooms to pick.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: Hazanko]
    #18902776 - 09/28/13 01:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

t the way I see it, providing high co2 levels is tricking the mycellium into thinking that it's still underground, and thus should be spreading until it reaches the ''surface'' where co2 levels are lower and it starts to fruit.




Except that very few species colonize under ground.  Cubensis grows on cow manure above the soil.  Tree loving species grow completely above ground.  The fact is, mycelium is digesting solid food(carbon) and this carbon then must go somewhere.  It's released into the air as CO2, where it is used by plants, etc.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Why do we need to put polyfill in monos and let them consolidate? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #18902872 - 09/28/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Since they mostly eat carbon would some amount of potash be beneficial perhaps?


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