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InvisibleMegatrondon
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so thinking for myself for once
    #18896792 - 09/27/13 12:02 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

i can only imagine the majority of the members here are not Christians.

(believers in Jesus Christ and he will come back and take his 
believers)

but as I'm getting older. I'm just not grasping the who faith concept.

like i mean living a life like a Christan is not that bad. you can say

its brain wash but its all good stuff. the bible does have a dark side

to it. with god sending army's to kill and take virgins as wife's.

that's what blows me away. i was never thought that. or the fact that

in the first book there talking about giants ruling the land  again i

was never told in Sunday school that there where giants . its like the

bible to me sounds like one big fairy/drama/action/pornographic/horror/

/musical movie script. I'm leaning towards the evaluation side of

things now and but if, if there is a GOD that created us . he would

not need use to worship him. why would a such thing like that creator

want us on hands and knees? i think he would rather see us figure out

how to prolong the earths life and continue with a healthy living.for

generations and generations and eons and eons. and when we die ? what

then? i think we just shut off. like a computer. when its off its off.

its not doing anything. it takes that owner to switch it back on.

heaven and hell? no way...why would a creator create a hell for people

he created that he knew would not believe (since Christians teach Jesus/god/holy spirit is a all knowing god) and burn them. so he

created none believers to burn? it's straight bull  that's just my thoughts

though. anyone care to discuses there view of god/creator


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Offlinedodgem
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Megatrondon]
    #18896826 - 09/27/13 12:09 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I had many of those same ideas in the past 5 or so years.  I went all the way through 8th grade at a catholic grade school getting all this nonsense thrown at me.  And then I started thinking for myself and became really interested in science idea of it all, and since then I have not looked back. welcome to the... other side, I guess ha.


--------------------
Walk where you like your steps


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: dodgem]
    #18897243 - 09/27/13 02:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The Bible says trust in God and lean not on your own understanding. You are leaning on your own understanding, so of course it doesn't make sense to you.

The whole premise of Christianity is that mankind fell from grace, into a state of ignorance and sin in which God is not known or understood properly. The Bible is one of God's many attempts at helping mankind to find its way back to Him.

Quote:

i can only imagine the majority of the members here are not Christians.

(believers in Jesus Christ and he will come back and take his
believers)

but as I'm getting older. I'm just not grasping the who faith concept.

like i mean living a life like a Christan is not that bad. you can say

its brain wash but its all good stuff. the bible does have a dark side

to it. with god sending army's to kill and take virgins as wife's.

that's what blows me away. i was never thought that. or the fact that

in the first book there talking about giants ruling the land  again i

was never told in Sunday school that there where giants . its like the

bible to me sounds like one big fairy/drama/action/pornographic/horror/

/musical movie script.




The Bible contains spiritual truth and ancient wisdom presented in the form of stories and myths. It's quite ingenious if you ask me.


Quote:

I'm leaning towards the evaluation side of

things now and but if, if there is a GOD that created us . he would

not need use to worship him. why would a such thing like that creator

want us on hands and knees?




God wants us to love Him so much that WE ourselves don't want to do anything but worship and praise Him for all eternity like the angels do. Why does God want this? Because he loves us and wants us to be happy and he is the source of all joy and happiness. God is the wellspring of unlimited happiness, bliss beyond bliss. You obviously have no idea how good God is, even from the point of view of simple ecstasy, let alone the deep bliss that permeates the depths of God's infinite being.

Quote:

i think he would rather see us figure out

how to prolong the earths life and continue with a healthy living.for

generations and generations and eons and eons. and when we die




So we can't do both? And who are you to take it upon yourself to decide what God wants? This is exactly why pride is the greatest sin. All of a sudden, you think you know better than God. Don't you understand that thinking we know better than God is what got us into this predicament in the first place?

Quote:

no way...why would a creator create a hell for people

he created that he knew would not believe (since Christians teach Jesus/god/holy spirit is a all knowing god) and burn them. so he

created none believers to burn? it's straight bull  that's just my thoughts

though. anyone care to discuses there view of god/creator




Hell was not created for people, it was created for the devil and his angels. God does not send anyone to hell, but it is he desire that all men be saved. However, God will not force salvation upon us. Out of his great love, he allows us to create whatever kind of life/experience we wish for ourselves. If we align our selves with heavenly energies and love God and his purpose, then we create a heavenly existence for ourselves, peace on earth and eternal joy following this life. If instead we choose to align ourselves with demonic energies and choose wickedness over good, we begin creating a hellish existence for ourselves. Even then God is infinite love and mercy, still offers us the chance to turn around and go to Him when we die, but he does not force us. The souls that would rather burn in hell than face God, get their wish.

It's clear from your post that you are filled with misconceptions. Christianity is a spiritual teaching, which is a guide for living life in a such a way that the result is sustainable happiness and wisdom. It was intended to help you develop an inner, personal connection to Christ in your own heart so that you might become holy yourself and come to know your creator.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18897527 - 09/27/13 06:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)


The Bible says trust in God and lean not on your own understanding. You are leaning on your own understanding, so of course it doesn't make sense to you.


This imo is a huge hypocrisy and recruitment tool of the christian religion.  They tell you not to lean on your own understanding when you see the valid contradictions in their sales pitch and the bible but then use their own understandings to convince you of their cause.  They will explain everything to you USING THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF THINGS and tell you that it's all from god.  It's a really sneaky ploy imo and unfortunately it works with those who have a weak grasp on logical thinking.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18899296 - 09/27/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Am I supposed to explain everything with someone else's understanding?

All I did in my post was present the idea that if something about Christianity does not make sense, it could be because your understanding is incorrect or incomplete, rather than because of a problem inherent to Christianity.

I know that to be the case, if experience has taught me one thing, it is that my understanding of reality has been way off of actual reality and that continues to be the case. For me, spiritual growth is a process by which I clear up the confusion that exists in my perception. As a result of growth/becoming less confused about some things, I see how many seemingly unanswerable questions I had back then, which each by itself could have been reason for me to deny Christianity, actually all have simple answers. For that reason, I can assume that it is at least likely, that many of the questions/things dont make sense to me now, will clear themselves up later on on the path.

If there is one thing that can be surmised, it is that apparent logical inconsistencies are not necessarily proper reasons for rejecting a religious faith, as obtuse as that sounds. Religion is really dealing in a realm that is resistant to logical inspection, because it is a realm beyond thought and intellect. A realm of pure energy.

my advice. Enter the realm of Pure Energy, conscious energy and search for answers there. With the intellect you find nothing but levels of uncertatinty. For example icelander, I take you are not a Christian. Yet, do you know with 100% certainty that God does not exist? Im guessing no. So with the intellect, ypou find nothing but confusion and probabilities. No way to know anythuing for sure. But what fun is that? If you want to have fun, real fun, you must go into the realm of pure energy.

you don't have to take my word for it. Read the Bible yourself. Jesus promises seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened for you. One thing I do know is that Jesus Christ keeps his promises. Anyone who seeks God with a pure heart, does good and perseveres to the end, will find Him.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18899502 - 09/27/13 04:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I've been down that road of pure energy and it didn't exist imo.  I spent many years of my youth (up into my early 20s) convinced (by my upbringing mostly) that Christianity was the whole truth.  Later when circumstance forced me into thinking for myself I saw easily that I had no real evidence for that belief.

Religion is really dealing in a realm that is resistant to logical inspection, because it is a realm beyond thought and intellect. A realm of pure energy.

It's just not true imo, instead it has become apparent to me that religion is created by us, along with our concepts of god, in order, mostly at least, to help us deal with our insecurities around all the things we don't know about what we are and why we are here and why we are impermanent.

So I've been there and don't need to take anyones word on it. And I did search in good faith and accept jesus as my personal savior (for many many years) and all the things christians say you need to do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18899788 - 09/27/13 05:52 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Many many years apparently was not long enough in your case. He who perseveres to the end will be saved. You can't persevere only so long, then call it quits and decide God doesn't exist because you didn't find him on your time schedule.

But may I ask you what your spiritual life was like as a Christian? How much time per day did you spend in prayer? Did you make every attempt to learn to despise your sins and all evil doing? Did your soul yearn for God, long for him like a man lost in the desert longs for water? Did you develop a firm conviction that true peace and happiness can only result from learning to love the Lord and not from having things go your way in the world? How much did you study the Bible? Did you build feelings of love, devotion and reverence for Jesus and desire nothing other than to please him?


I accept the fact that we are all limited by our experiences, and we are all quite easily lead astray by the devil and his forces. If you feel like you've given Christianity a proper go and found it lacking, what can I say? You must travel in whatever direction seems right to you. The one thing to remember about God is that he is mostly concerned with how you treat others.

Quote:


It's just not true imo, instead it has become apparent to me that religion is created by us, along with our concepts of god, in order, mostly at least, to help us deal with our insecurities around all the things we don't know about what we are and why we are here and why we are impermanent.




Yes, that is correct. Religion is created to help us deal with being impermanent. It presents an ingenious solution. Instead of moping about lamenting the fact that we are mortal, why not instead turn our attention to worship of the immortal God? We may be impermanent but we are made from something that is permanent and eternal. Do you deny that reality was here before it took on your particular form and that it will still be here after the form of your body ceases to function? If we see ourselves as one with the eternal reality from which we sprang, then we can begin to share in the eternal existence of that reality right now. It is only by considering ourselves as something separate, that questions of mortality even arise. Why do you consider yourself an individual?


Edited by Deviate (09/27/13 05:54 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18899850 - 09/27/13 06:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Many many years apparently was not long enough in your case. He who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Full on cop-out response imo.  The fact is your formula for finding this god does not work unless you are desperate to believe it and willing not to face any contrary evidence.

And yes, three times a week in church or bible study, daily ernest prayer and thought on god, trying to follow all the laws of the religion etc etc.

See the fact is you just don't have a case here and you are finding that hard to face and really explain away so you are just setting the bar higher hoping we don't notice. 

All the things you are believing and preaching and proselytizing here imo just are not true or real.  I know this to be true in my heart from direct experience. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18901103 - 09/27/13 11:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

The Bible says trust in God and lean not on your own understanding. You are leaning on your own understanding, so of course it doesn't make sense to you.


This imo is a huge hypocrisy and recruitment tool of the christian religion.  They tell you not to lean on your own understanding when you see the valid contradictions in their sales pitch and the bible but then use their own understandings to convince you of their cause.  They will explain everything to you USING THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF THINGS and tell you that it's all from god.  It's a really sneaky ploy imo and unfortunately it works with those who have a weak grasp on logical thinking.




To spread the good will, all in the environment
and all the false Doctrine and all the carcinogens, but now
I gotta be wise 'bout who I'm targeting
The key is make the young folks offerings
so that they don't become adults that are demonstrative
or else my chances of retirement go spiraling
So then I work my way into their subconsciousness
I tell them always use caution, now, cautiousness, because
Are you absolutely positive
That you can make it without us and be prosperous?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18901286 - 09/28/13 01:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Many many years apparently was not long enough in your case. He who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Full on cop-out response imo.  The fact is your formula for finding this god does not work unless you are desperate to believe it and willing not to face any contrary evidence.

And yes, three times a week in church or bible study, daily ernest prayer and thought on god, trying to follow all the laws of the religion etc etc.

See the fact is you just don't have a case here and you are finding that hard to face and really explain away so you are just setting the bar higher hoping we don't notice. 

All the things you are believing and preaching and proselytizing here imo just are not true or real.  I know this to be true in my heart from direct experience. :satansmoking:





Look, I respect your opinion. Especially if you sincerely tried to please God. I seriously respect that and all you have to say.

You know what? There are some things I can't explain. There are some things which don't fit with my worldview.

I can only speak from my own experience. In my experience, Jesus doesn't break promises. I can't tell you what went wrong in your case or why you were not graced with illumination. It may sound like a cop out but the ego can be exceedingly difficult to overcome. There is really no time when it is alright to say ok I have tried long enough, if enlightenment existed Id have found it by now so it must not exist.

As for me, I can't deny my own experiences. I have entered into states of spiritual ecstasy and contemplation of God on numerous occasions and they have resulted in permanent changes to my every day awareness. I cannot deny this, it's a fact of my life every bit as certain as grass being green or the sky being blue.


How can we reconcile our completely opposing experiences? What do you make of people like me?

Perhaps you think we are suffering from sort undiagnosed brain disease that causes us to enter pathological states of consciousness which are far more satisfying than ordinary awareness and then mistake them as revealing mystical truth? This would make a lot more sense than religion as just something made up to make people feel better. I can tell you that religion is more than that. I was raised an atheist and a pessimist. Religion sounded like wishful thinking to me. In fact, one of my number one reasons for not believing is because the gospel sounded too good to be true. My first mystical experiences were not Christian in nature and all they did was open me up to the possibility that there was something beyond the physical world. This did not offer any type of existential comforts or provide an answer to my questions, I had no motivation  for believing it other than my quest for truth. It was my desire to find out the truth that lead me to keep exploring the inner recesses of my mind and eventually discover the bliss of the pure being states, free from thoughts and concepts. The bliss experienced was so intense that I have never been able to forget it and none of the pleasures of the world have satisfied me since. I have had times where I felt stuck and frustrated on the spiritual path and desired to go back and be enthralled by the pleasures of the world again, but I was unable to do so. As I sought happiness from pleasure, I just became more and more miserable and more and more sensitive to pain. You've really never experienced the bliss of being?


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Offlineeve69
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Megatrondon]
    #18901636 - 09/28/13 06:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Megatrondon said:
i can only imagine the majority of the members here are not Christians.

(believers in Jesus Christ and he will come back and take his 
believers)

but as I'm getting older. I'm just not grasping the who faith concept.

like i mean living a life like a Christan is not that bad. you can say

its brain wash but its all good stuff. the bible does have a dark side

to it. with god sending army's to kill and take virgins as wife's.

that's what blows me away. i was never thought that. or the fact that

in the first book there talking about giants ruling the land  again i

was never told in Sunday school that there where giants . its like the

bible to me sounds like one big fairy/drama/action/pornographic/horror/

/musical movie script. I'm leaning towards the evaluation side of

things now and but if, if there is a GOD that created us . he would

not need use to worship him. why would a such thing like that creator

want us on hands and knees? i think he would rather see us figure out

how to prolong the earths life and continue with a healthy living.for

generations and generations and eons and eons. and when we die ? what

then? i think we just shut off. like a computer. when its off its off.

its not doing anything. it takes that owner to switch it back on.

heaven and hell? no way...why would a creator create a hell for people

he created that he knew would not believe (since Christians teach Jesus/god/holy spirit is a all knowing god) and burn them. so he

created none believers to burn? it's straight bull  that's just my thoughts

though. anyone care to discuses there view of god/creator





This is the start of any faith, not the end of it.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18901744 - 09/28/13 07:05 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You know what? There are some things I can't explain. There are some things which don't fit with my worldview.


Bottom line for all of us. :thumbup:

IMO if we operated from this place more we'd be  better off but to each his own.

The bliss experienced was so intense that I have never been able to forget it and none of the pleasures of the world have satisfied me since.

For me it was my first solo ecstasy trip, nothing in christianity or any religion or philosophy came near to the  intense bliss state I entered for over 6 hours and then the afterglow for almost 6 months.  It's almost indescribable how I felt but I've tried in other threads.  Those were the best 6 hours of my life and as I said no experience in my strivings for religious salvation came anywhere near that. So that's why I believe what I believe among other things.


Edited by Icelander (09/28/13 07:50 AM)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18902101 - 09/28/13 09:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

For me it was about ten acid trips - good, bad and the ugly which sent me off to the East.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisiblePsilopsychosis
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: eve69]
    #18904355 - 09/28/13 08:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I was turned off Christianity because of the whole idea that the earth(and by extension the universe) is an artifact of some master architect. I really don't like this notion. The earth is a living organism that was born by the the force of gravity pulling cosmic gases and dust together from an exploded star over a long, long time. That IMO is more beautiful than any piece of art or artifice.


Edited by Psilopsychosis (09/28/13 08:20 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18904740 - 09/28/13 09:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You know what? There are some things I can't explain. There are some things which don't fit with my worldview.


Bottom line for all of us. :thumbup:

IMO if we operated from this place more we'd be  better off but to each his own.

The bliss experienced was so intense that I have never been able to forget it and none of the pleasures of the world have satisfied me since.

For me it was my first solo ecstasy trip, nothing in christianity or any religion or philosophy came near to the  intense bliss state I entered for over 6 hours and then the afterglow for almost 6 months.  It's almost indescribable how I felt but I've tried in other threads.  Those were the best 6 hours of my life and as I said no experience in my strivings for religious salvation came anywhere near that. So that's why I believe what I believe among other things.





Yes, well I'd like you to understand that I have entered into states of intense bliss without any drugs as a result of my catholic spiritual practices. They were very brief glimpses. One example came a few weeks ago as I was driving to Detroit. I was contemplating God as is the norm for me while I drive and suddenly I realized that I was part of the eternal, infinite. My body appeared to shimmer and an astonishingly deep bliss overwhelmed me. It felt totally foreign to me and yet at the same time completely familiar. I realized that was because I had experienced that same bliss as a little child, I would feel it as I gazed down an empty railroad track or listened to the ravens calling as I awoke from sleep on a foggy, rainy morning. But that bliss had not been a part of the identity I built for myself since, so in that sense it's completely foreign to me and who I am in the world. I am so used to life being unsatisfactory at best, hellish at worst and generally pretty painful and unpleasant that I am truly shocked to my core whenever I experience a moment of real joy/happiness or bliss. I think that a part of me does not believe in happiness. I feel as though it is impossible for me to be happy.  I know I can feel temporary elation for instance if you gave me $10,000 I would be elated but true happiness? No. Impossible. So whenever I have an experience that challenges that belief, it stays in my memory.

Anyway, the vast majority of my mystical experiences have been on drugs but even then, I find that by practicing meditation, prayer, and contemplation of the Lord while high, I can increase the % of mystical experiences and my faith prevents me from having bad trips. WHen I start having a bad trip, I think of God and his mighty angels and I usually enter more positive headspaces. Angels are very powerful allies.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18904764 - 09/28/13 09:56 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

And that's why I always wear my seat belt.  :lol:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleMegatrondon
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18904799 - 09/28/13 10:06 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think of God and his mighty angels and I usually enter more positive headspaces. Angels are very powerful allies.




that usually works . i wonder why?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Megatrondon]
    #18905455 - 09/29/13 01:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I think it works because bad trips usually have to do with fear (usually that is it, just fear) and with confronting negative or poorly understood aspects of one's psyche.


Thinking of God takes one's attention off of oneself and places it onto the higher being. When the mind is absorbed in contemplation of the higher being, it cannot engage in other thoughts. As soon as the mind stops thinking fearful or negative thoughts, the fear and negativity vanish.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18905534 - 09/29/13 01:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Which fits in with my and others ideas of how religion and god could well have been created to deal with human fears. Be it of impermanence/death or the boogy man etc. :shrug:

The idea of a loving father who can care for us and protect us is very appealing when we are feeling scared.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18905591 - 09/29/13 02:19 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yes certainly, but mystical experiences prove there is more to religion than that. I don't deny that there are many psychological reasons that make spiritual and religious beliefs appealing to people and contribute to the popularity of religion. But I think it is a mistake to think that's all there is to religion, just a nice story that amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking.

As you know I used to be an atheist but I was always a truth seeker. Back in my atheist days, I despised the idea of just believing in something because it sounded nice and my biggest complaint against Christianity was that the gospel of Jesus Christ seemed too good to be true.

A loving father who provides and cares for us? Angels? Heaven? Eternal life? True happiness? Get real. I mean, all I experienced was this miserable, painful world which appeared to follow the cold, impersonal laws of nature. There was no solid evidence of anything more than this as far as I was concerned and to believe that not only was there something more than this, but that it consisted of the true fulfillment of our heart's deepest yearnings, seemed like complete, utter wishful thinking to me. I mean it flew in the face of logic and reasoning.

So what happened? Did I suddenly on a whim decide that logic and reasoning should be abandoned in favor of wishful thinking? No. I became a teenager curious about what effects drugs might have on my consciousness, consciousness itself being the big mystery which I could not explain as an atheist. The first drug I took was a vicodin and it did not impress me a great deal either spiritually or recreationally. I also tried alcohol and wasn't too enthralled with that either, so I began to think maybe drugs weren't for me and became less interested in them for a while. But eventually, at age 18,  I smoked the marijuana plant and a couple years later ate the magic mushroom. These substances took me to realms of experience that really were every bit as glorious and perfect as the places mentioned in various religious texts. It was then I learned that religion was not based on wishful thinking, but actual human contact with the divine. What I previously had thought was impossible, was not only possible but so simple that a mere bud or mushroom could induce it.

Of course the difficulty is making it last. But if such bliss is possible for a night, longer even if you've ever experienced an afterglow, then how you can legitimately say it is not possible for longer than that, or even all the time?


Edited by Deviate (09/29/13 02:21 AM)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18905901 - 09/29/13 05:53 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm a mystic of first order. I believe in Mysticism proper, as a palliative for all that ills us. I've had plenty of mystical experiences without drugs so don't get your panties in a bunch. You may be mystical first and a Jesuser second without knowing it.  Jesus is not the way though. Jesus is a way.

Because any process of coming to know a Creator isn't available to the intellect at once it must be an ongoing relationship. I have mine with the Goddess and have for all my life. I am so fortunate to have had her find me when I was a young punkrocker in Hollywood.

I can tell Deviate that you're a young man.  Maybe with time you'll find out that you cannot compel the mystical upon another, not with phrases or bell, not with priest, or cross, or Book, nor with myrrh, olibanum or candle. Not by trying as hard as you might will you get that horse to drink.

Ultimately you should check your own self before you go gallivanting off like a windmill boinker. Don't kiss and tell all the time in your relationship with the Goddess (The Sophia) (who you patriarchal fundamentalists call 'God' thinking that somehow earns you spiritual kudos - leniencies; thinking that a God can be a Creator, haha, everybody knows men can give birth, hahaha) Christians all have this idea that their deservability increases with amount of Hail Marys.

Count yourself blessed for your experiences, sorry that they are not shared, find people who appreciate them where there is no division for you. The discussion of spiritual experiences with an frictionate public introduces anger into the experience of the mind's appreciation on a subtle level and isn't good.

You say you're not on drugs D, I bet anything you're on some drug or another but you're not telling us.


--------------------
...or something







Edited by eve69 (09/29/13 06:01 AM)


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: eve69]
    #18905934 - 09/29/13 06:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


(I admit to being on Kratom these days)  :elmo:

I've had "mystical" experiences on drugs aplenty in 40+ years of gobbling them.  I just logically never concluded they were part of any main stream belief system. Rather instead my own special experience of the "divine".


Edited by Icelander (09/29/13 06:29 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: eve69]
    #18910119 - 09/30/13 06:31 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I'm a mystic of first order. I believe in Mysticism proper, as a palliative for all that ills us. I've had plenty of mystical experiences without drugs so don't get your panties in a bunch. You may be mystical first and a Jesuser second without knowing it.  Jesus is not the way though. Jesus is a way.




Why would I get my panties in a bunch? Here are my thoughts on Jesus being a way vs the way. The Bible says that anyone in any nation who is upright and fears God is acceptable to him. It does not say that those people must worship or even know about Jesus. I think a lot of Christians who are or have been intolerant of other religions ignore this verse. another confusing aspect is the fact that for Christians, God, Jesus and the life force are all synonymous. From that point of view, Jesus is the only way, because there is ultimately only one way. Christians call that way "Jesus". Buddhists might call it the 8 fold path. Confusion exists because some people can't recognize the same product under a different brand name.

Quote:


Because any process of coming to know a Creator isn't available to the intellect at once it must be an ongoing relationship. I have mine with the Goddess and have for all my life. I am so fortunate to have had her find me when I was a young punkrocker in Hollywood.

I can tell Deviate that you're a young man.  Maybe with time you'll find out that you cannot compel the mystical upon another, not with phrases or bell, not with priest, or cross, or Book, nor with myrrh, olibanum or candle. Not by trying as hard as you might will you get that horse to drink.




I already found that out years ago. I used to believe in logic and reasoning and rational debate as a means of reaching truth. After my mystical experiences and new understanding of religion and spirituality, I thought that I would be able to explain mystical experiences to atheists in a way that would make them understand that religious beliefs were not necessarily fundamentally different from their own beliefs. For example, atheism is not a belief system, it is a lack of belief in God. Calling it a belief system would be like you asking me what my religion was and me answering with Not Buddhist. Ok, so I am not a Buddhist. But that doesnt tell you what I am. Most atheists are actually just materialists. They have a set of beliefs which when closely examined, come to rest on a bunch of assumptions about the world which are no more proven than the assumptions made by religious people. If you point this out to them, they will argue that their assumptions make more sense than those of religious people. However, they cannot prove this. So what it comes down to, is that atheists are saying that everyone should look at the world how they do because they are the smartest people and anyway who operates under a different set of assumptions must be wrong because they are different and therefore stupid.

I enjoy conversing with icelander because he is not like that. He may not be a believer, but is not arrogant and disrespectful. He is just honest about the fact that he has never found God/the divine and as a result, sees no reason to believe. What more can you from someone than honesty?

Quote:


Ultimately you should check your own self before you go gallivanting off like a windmill boinker. Don't kiss and tell all the time in your relationship with the Goddess (The Sophia) (who you patriarchal fundamentalists call 'God' thinking that somehow earns you spiritual kudos - leniencies; thinking that a God can be a Creator, haha, everybody knows men can give birth, hahaha) Christians all have this idea that their deservability increases with amount of Hail Marys.




Really don't understand what you're trying to say here. The Goddess, is the earth mother, the physical world that gave birth to us and everything else in creation, creation itself really, is the Mother. The Father is the pure spirit, the unseen power that is the other half of the single reality which encompasses both creation and nothingness.

Christians do not all believe their deservebility increases the amount of hail mary's. In fact, not only does a large section of the Christian community regard devotion to Mary as heretical, they even go as far as to deny that a man can gain merit by anything he does at all. As a catholic christian, I do believe in the power of the hail mary prayer but this is by no means universal among Christians.

Quote:


Count yourself blessed for your experiences, sorry that they are not shared, find people who appreciate them where there is no division for you. The discussion of spiritual experiences with an frictionate public introduces anger into the experience of the mind's appreciation on a subtle level and isn't good.




yes you are right in what you say. there is an aspect to speaking about spiritual experiences that is akin to kissing and telling and I feel as though I often cross into that territory. I get carried away easily on topics which I am passionate about. On the other hand, the Bible tells us to proclaim the glory of the Lord and not to keep our wisdom to ourselves.

You say you're not on drugs D, I bet anything you're on some drug or another but you're not telling us.




Are you referring to me with that last line? If so, I don't recall saying I wasn't on drugs. I admitted to being stoned in a thread I made just a couple of days ago. I don't smoke nearly as much weed as I used to, but I have not given up drugs entirely yet.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18910139 - 09/30/13 06:48 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:thumbup:


(I admit to being on Kratom these days)  :elmo:

I've had "mystical" experiences on drugs aplenty in 40+ years of gobbling them.  I just logically never concluded they were part of any main stream belief system. Rather instead my own special experience of the "divine".




I thought that too in my early days as a drug user. But it wasn't long before I became to grow in understanding and then see that same understanding reflected in sacred texts from around the world. I converted to Hinduism when I was 20, before finding Jesus later that year and becoming a Christian. It wasn't that finding Jesus made me decide Hinduism was wrong, rather I simply desired to study the religion that I had been in greatest opposition to as an atheist. I was so delighted by the fact that the beliefs and ideas which I had so vehemently denied and debated against as an atheist, might actually have some truth to them, that I quickly became an esoteric Christian and got involved in the new age movement, which attempted to synthesize all religions. it wasn't until years later and some powerful LSD trips, that I found myself being drawn to the Catholic Church.

All the wisdom I found on psychedelics, exists somewhere or other in the Bible as far as I am concerned. If you don't like the whole Jesus died for your sins aspect, read the old testament, read the wisdom literature like proverbs. One of my favorite books in the Bible is actually Sirach, which you may not be familiar with if you were a protestant. In my opinion, Sirach alone contains all the wisdom one needs to enter into life in one book.


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18910149 - 09/30/13 06:56 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I enjoy conversing with icelander because he is not like that. He may not be a believer, but is not arrogant and disrespectful. He is just honest about the fact that he has never found God/the divine and as a result, sees no reason to believe. What more can you from someone than honesty?


Thanks, man I wish I had found it. That was my fervent search for much of my life due to some profound unhappiness.  Instead I found Ernest Becker and Death Anxiety. :whoa:  Maybe I'll have better luck next time. :lol:  My plan is to work with whatever I believe to be the truth. Pleasant, Unpleasant, Neutral, I'm going to run with it. :shrug: But I'm unable to lie to myself on this issue and that is very apparent to me.  This is where the buck stops. :nicesmile:

And btw many here don't see me as sincere and respectful.  The reason being imo is that when I post to you I feel you are being as honest and open as you can be and not just out to win a debate or your point. You can acknowledge that some things don't fit into your world view as you say.  Admitting it's only your world view is quite honorable imo and a rare thing among true believers.  I have no problem being respectful to  your pov.

The fact that you push your beliefs here is no different, better or worse than me pushing what I believe in. It's what goes on with all of us most of the time.  You do it in a very respectful way most of the time and you're far from a fundy imo.  That being said it's very apparent we are not in agreement. :wink:


Edited by Icelander (09/30/13 07:04 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18910185 - 09/30/13 07:12 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks. I try because that is the one thing I wish humanity would learn, how to be respectful toward itself. Our society especially has a big problem with that.


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Deviate]
    #18911273 - 09/30/13 01:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Yes certainly, but mystical experiences prove there is more to religion than that. I don't deny that there are many psychological reasons that make spiritual and religious beliefs appealing to people and contribute to the popularity of religion. But I think it is a mistake to think that's all there is to religion, just a nice story that amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking.

As you know I used to be an atheist but I was always a truth seeker. Back in my atheist days, I despised the idea of just believing in something because it sounded nice and my biggest complaint against Christianity was that the gospel of Jesus Christ seemed too good to be true.

A loving father who provides and cares for us? Angels? Heaven? Eternal life? True happiness? Get real. I mean, all I experienced was this miserable, painful world which appeared to follow the cold, impersonal laws of nature. There was no solid evidence of anything more than this as far as I was concerned and to believe that not only was there something more than this, but that it consisted of the true fulfillment of our heart's deepest yearnings, seemed like complete, utter wishful thinking to me. I mean it flew in the face of logic and reasoning.

So what happened? Did I suddenly on a whim decide that logic and reasoning should be abandoned in favor of wishful thinking? No. I became a teenager curious about what effects drugs might have on my consciousness, consciousness itself being the big mystery which I could not explain as an atheist. The first drug I took was a vicodin and it did not impress me a great deal either spiritually or recreationally. I also tried alcohol and wasn't too enthralled with that either, so I began to think maybe drugs weren't for me and became less interested in them for a while. But eventually, at age 18,  I smoked the marijuana plant and a couple years later ate the magic mushroom. These substances took me to realms of experience that really were every bit as glorious and perfect as the places mentioned in various religious texts. It was then I learned that religion was not based on wishful thinking, but actual human contact with the divine. What I previously had thought was impossible, was not only possible but so simple that a mere bud or mushroom could induce it.

Of course the difficulty is making it last. But if such bliss is possible for a night, longer even if you've ever experienced an afterglow, then how you can legitimately say it is not possible for longer than that, or even all the time?




In the face of a very laid back life, I have this constant mystical morbidity pulling me down. The universe always seems to take care of everything despite my errors, yet I live out this constant mystical hatred of everything and myself. Those moments of bliss seem pathetic to me. A temporary self awareness that suffers for no reason. Haunted by memories. Surrounded by beautiful people yet being completely alone and they always seem to be a million miles away. Silences that always have to be fucking awkward. The bible really deepened my confusion and disappointment about there being no way out of the filth and rot. Decay is mystical. Bliss is superficial bullshit la la.


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #18911931 - 09/30/13 04:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds bad.:sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18911991 - 09/30/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

bliss done right isn't superficial
suprafacial perhaps


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: eve69]
    #18912597 - 09/30/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

I really dug my bliss state.  It sure didn't feel superficial.  But what the fuck do I know?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Icelander]
    #18913987 - 10/01/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

IMO Abrahamic religions (and a few other types) are pretty much organized placebo, and a social activity. They do work, placebo does have effects, and it's all probably best used in moderation. That is, have fun with it just don't take the content too seriously. It's all myths and stories.

Have fun on Christmas, opening presents and setting up trees, just don't start setting up telescopes and tracking radars to prove that reindeer sleds are actually flying through the sky, that's missing the point entirely. Also the art and architecture are somewhat nice. I myself prefer non-Christian religions, but to each their own.

Here, a nice TED Talk on this:



Finally, learn to spell and to use paragraphs OP, otherwise it makes your posts seem somewhat ignorant.


--------------------
Blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.



For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it,
and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
- Matthew 13:16


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: Spacerific]
    #18914362 - 10/01/13 02:05 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:thumbup:

Quote:

Icelander said:
I really dug my bliss state.  It sure didn't feel superficial.  But what the fuck do I know?




I dug my bliss states, sometimes. Living in the moment, working with what is here and now, not bliss but festering, swelling mold consuming damp dust particles. Surely that which goes up must come down.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #18914629 - 10/01/13 05:01 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

the bliss state I lived pretty great for a number of years and I feel it was instrumental in giving me faith in the Goddess

in fact it was instrumental in allowing me to open up completely and just live - i learned a lot about the purpose of life and my purpose from the bliss - like I am a medium for celebration - joy is my purpose in life - and spreading joy (it always make me feel sexy to say that) - fact is I had always been in food service and I decided to go into music - celebration, through bliss and joy (s,d,rnr).

Some people can turn happiness into their profession. I feel pretty lucky that I was raised (raised myself through a Goddess cult) to appreciate the Creation and the body of the Creatrix Saraswati.  How lucky one can be to take the basic space of phenomena as the body of the Beloved. If karma is as karma does then let us celebrate!!!


--------------------
...or something







Edited by eve69 (10/01/13 05:08 AM)


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Re: so thinking for myself for once [Re: usulpsychonaut]
    #18915178 - 10/01/13 09:14 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

usulpsychonaut said:
:thumbup:

Quote:

Icelander said:
I really dug my bliss state.  It sure didn't feel superficial.  But what the fuck do I know?




I dug my bliss states, sometimes. Living in the moment, working with what is here and now, not bliss but festering, swelling mold consuming damp dust particles. Surely that which goes up must come down.





Well I did come down and hard eventually.  Duality and all that shit. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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