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EastBayRay

Registered: 06/06/13
Posts: 746
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Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!!
#18893559 - 09/26/13 11:14 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not sure if this is good practice or not but I've PC'd (3.5 hours at 15psi) some 5 LB bags of PF Blocks that got contaminated with trich due to a bad grain LC and then reinoculated them with clean LC. They've fully colonized with no issue and are now on their third flush. Has anyone else tried this? It's worked for me without a hitch. Why haven't I seen any other posts about this on the Shroomery? Is it bad practice? If so, can you explain why?
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EastBayRay

Registered: 06/06/13
Posts: 746
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: EastBayRay]
#18893569 - 09/26/13 11:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can it throw off the moisture content or something along those lines?
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bulkgrownoob
Registered: 03/21/11
Posts: 345
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: EastBayRay]
#18893617 - 09/26/13 11:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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One reason that it's bad practice is because the mold consumes nutrients from the substrate that the mycelium needs
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GOATOAD
Psychonaut


Registered: 08/29/12
Posts: 197
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: EastBayRay]
#18893623 - 09/26/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well shit man, if it works, it works. Have you repeated this experiment with the same results? This would be interesting to know. I just threw out 3 bags that were contamed with trich (shitty syringes). Might save some hassle next time around.
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EastBayRay

Registered: 06/06/13
Posts: 746
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: GOATOAD]
#18893745 - 09/26/13 12:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bulkgrownoob said: One reason that it's bad practice is because the mold consumes nutrients from the substrate that the mycelium needs
Ah, I see. Once I saw the trich (it was smaller than the circumference of a dime) I PC'd each bag. So maybe it wasn't able to get a hold over the majority of the substrate.
Quote:
GOATOAD said: Well shit man, if it works, it works. Have you repeated this experiment with the same results? This would be interesting to know. I just threw out 3 bags that were contamed with trich (shitty syringes). Might save some hassle next time around.
I've done it a number of times on PF tek jars and only once with PF Blocks as listed above. Every time I've done it I haven't had any issues. That being said, I always have PC'd at the moment I noticed they were contaminated and didn't wait at all. However, I don't think I've done it enough times to claim it is a proven science. Maybe I should re-name the title of this thread.
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EastBayRay

Registered: 06/06/13
Posts: 746
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: bulkgrownoob]
#18894222 - 09/26/13 02:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bulkgrownoob said: One reason that it's bad practice is because the mold consumes nutrients from the substrate that the mycelium needs
Yep, you're correct. "Anyway, the substrate has already been eaten by mycelium if there's mold growing on it. Toss it and make fresh substrate. Cubensis is a primary decomposer, not secondary. RR "
Looks like I've just gotten lucky.
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: EastBayRay]
#18894229 - 09/26/13 02:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
EastBayRay said: Looks like I've just gotten lucky.
This.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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r23martinshrm
Trancer

Registered: 06/16/13
Posts: 27
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: EastBayRay]
#19801486 - 04/05/14 10:43 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes I've tried this. I'm still in the early stages of it, the first time I've tried it I used some bags that had myc and bacteria contam, re-pc'd it, and then re-inoculated it with oysters. The bags are totally ready to spawn and fruiting inside. So thats the stage I'm at with those. Also with the same g2g batch, I inoculated virgin bags too. At this point, the re pc'd bag is colonizing 2x faster and more vigorously than the virgin bag!!! I also have 2 tubs that I spawned with a virgin bag and a re-pc'd bag. The one tub with the re-pc'd bag is looking MUCH better than the virgin one, and I'm still waiting for fruits. Something about the contam "sweetens" the birdseed so that it does better the 2nd time around. Either that, or the birdseed is just more "cooked" and broken down??? Anyway, I'll keep experimenting with it and report what happens. The only thing is, I haven't re-pc'd any bags that looked like hell, or had green mold in them. Not yet anyway. I have one green mold one that I'm about to re-pc and test. Also at the first sign of contam, not waiting too long.
Edited by r23martinshrm (04/08/14 10:29 AM)
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That Man
Common Goer



Registered: 02/09/14
Posts: 173
Last seen: 8 months, 17 days
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: r23martinshrm]
#19801617 - 04/05/14 11:16 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Trash it and start from fresh.
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ToiletPhilosopher
Stranger

Registered: 02/20/14
Posts: 180
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: That Man]
#19801646 - 04/05/14 11:27 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have 7 jars of previously contaminated rye that are colonizing great. I did a lot of research on resusing contams. What I gathered from reading is that it may affect the ph negatively, and as the contams grow, they leave behind waste that could be toxic to some degree which is the main reason people shun the practice. I'm planning to g2g most of my contam jars and fruit a few as an experiment. I don't know if I'll eat the fruits or not. I think that would affect my trip mentally if not physically.
-------------------- I'm fucked up in the head. I write lies on here and pretend they're true. I steal other peoples' pictures and call them my own. I need therapy. Instead, I think I'll just go make love to a cold Oreo/Mayonnaise sandwich. We might just eat it afterwards...numnumnum
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 13 hours, 29 minutes
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Quote:
Is it bad practice? If so, can you explain why?
For one if it was contaminated with mold and not bacteria you'd only need to pasteurize the jar/bag to kill the mold. Why waste valuable PC space?
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r23martinshrm
Trancer

Registered: 06/16/13
Posts: 27
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: Kizzle]
#19807641 - 04/07/14 11:07 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
Is it bad practice? If so, can you explain why?
For one if it was contaminated with mold and not bacteria you'd only need to pasteurize the jar/bag to kill the mold. Why waste valuable PC space?
I'm pretty certain that you would need to sterilize your grain, whether it's the first time, and especially the 2nd time if it's visibly contaminated.
160 degree water is not going to kill mold in a mycobag with 2 quarts of grain inside. Or, a jar. Yeah, Re-Pc'ing a bag for 2.5 hours isn't going to kill all the mold either, but the myc will outrun it, at least it has the last 5 times i've tried it.
I mean, it's looking to me that this works, but also there is some speculation out there that there are toxins in the grain (from the contam) - so even if you fruit the re-inocculated grain...but I was under the impression, that the fruitbodies did not uptake the contams if there were some left...is there any science behind it?
I mean, contams are present in your bulk substrate as soon as you fruit it...there is nothing sterile about your fc. Your substrate is going to eventually mold out anyways whether it's right away, or after the 5th flush. It's just a race to the end. You pick the fruits all the time with a spot of mold (whether you know it or not) somewhere in your sub.....So, just having the knowledge that your grain had a a little visible contam before it was pc'd...might be psyching people out. I mean, the grain is contam'ed with all sorts of shit when it's virgin grain...what's the diff?
I'm not promoting fruiting contaminated grain. THAT is bad practice. Only 100% colonized grain, using visual inspection to see. I'm just saying that if you re-pc a (slightly) contaminated bag, you get good results. I don't know why yet.
Also i think it would be bad practice to re-pc some contaminated grain and use it for anything else except for final fruiting. Not for further innoculations.
And most people will say, why the heck would you want to re-pc a contaminated bag when grain is so cheap? Time, for one. Well, what if the results are twofold and you get stronger, better bags the 2nd time around and lots more fruits? What if? You have to try.
If anybody else has ACTUALLY tried it, please chime in.
Edited by r23martinshrm (04/07/14 11:16 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: r23martinshrm]
#19807754 - 04/07/14 11:43 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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This thread is rated F for fail.
Every fruit growing in nature is growing off of a contaminated substrate and they're fine to eat.
Everything OP has suggested is fail.
If you had bugs and mold in your food and found a way to kill the mold and bugs would you still use it
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MrGiraffe

Registered: 04/04/14
Posts: 3,149
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19808008 - 04/07/14 01:04 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
This thread is rated F for fail.
Every fruit growing in nature is growing off of a contaminated substrate and they're fine to eat.
Everything OP has suggested is fail.
If you had bugs and mold in your food and found a way to kill the mold and bugs would you still use it
In some cultures they wouldn't even bother to kill the bugs, they just eat them. How about blue cheese?
He's not talking about taking a cake that's got more contam than myc, he's talking about saving a bag/jar as soon as he notices a contam. I guess like a reset on the bag, then the amount of nutrients used up might be negligible. As far as the second noc going faster, maybe the original mycelium left some goodies from battling the infection, kind of like a contam "vaccine" lol.
For the record, I toss contaminated grains in the trash and the myc from the offending jar outside into the compost pile to do as it pleases.
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r23martinshrm
Trancer

Registered: 06/16/13
Posts: 27
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: MrGiraffe]
#19808129 - 04/07/14 01:50 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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2 quart bags of grain
PH
virgin bag after being cooked for 2:20 - 6.5 after being cooked for 4:40 5.5
contaminated bag after being cooked for 2:20 - 6.2 after being cooked for 4:40 5.2
perhaps the reason things look like they are going "better" is this? I thought that lower Ph is bad??? why is it doing better?
Well, if cooking my bags twice as long is going to give me better results, then I'm going to keep testing, contam or no contam.
I came to the conclusion that cooking a 2 quart bag for 2:20 was long enough because save blanks and let them sit around for months with no mold, i even inoculate them after 4 months and the are ok.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 13 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: r23martinshrm]
#19808365 - 04/07/14 02:54 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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It depends on the mold I suppose. Trichoderma for instance is very easy to kill, requires only 10 minutes at 140F whereas something like Chaetomium has been known survive normal pasteurization temperatures/time. I can't really say much as to the actual chances of succeeding when reusing a substrate like that but I can say I've killed mold in contaminated jars by pasteurizing with no regrowth afterward. And if you were to actually steam the substrates and not just pasteurize it I have no doubt that no molds could survive and it'd still spare you the use of PC space.
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EastBayRay

Registered: 06/06/13
Posts: 746
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19808560 - 04/07/14 03:29 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
  
This thread is rated F for fail.
Every fruit growing in nature is growing off of a contaminated substrate and they're fine to eat.
Everything OP has suggested is fail.
If you had bugs and mold in your food and found a way to kill the mold and bugs would you still use it
All I said is that it worked for me. I never said it was sound practice.
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 13 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: EastBayRay]
#19809036 - 04/07/14 05:09 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is the kind of experiment that comes up again and again. What seems to get ignored though is it would seem it usually works. At least that's the impression I get reading through old posts on the subject.
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Edited by Kizzle (04/07/14 05:15 PM)
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,270
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: Kizzle] 1
#19810397 - 04/07/14 09:48 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've fruited an entire tubs' worth of jars that had trich because of a bad syringe and it worked out fine. But like you said, it's frowned upon due to toxins released by the trich into the substrate being again consumed by the newly growing myc. But I watched my jars like a hawk... at the first signs of contam, I resterilized. But, like I said, it's frowned upon.. no worse than smoking a pack a day if you ask me.
Edit: apparently that is old outdated info.. So go ahead and re-sterilize.. I know it works fine for cakes.. I'm just not experienced in doing the same for grain jars.
This entire tub was contamed at one point (a very early point, mind you):

But again, it's up to you... I'd rather look into why your substrates are failing and fix that before I'd rely on a resterilizing technique.
faht
Edited by fahtster (04/10/14 03:31 PM)
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36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,079
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: fahtster]
#19810936 - 04/07/14 11:56 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fahtster said: I've fruited an entire tubs' worth of jars that had trich because of a bad syringe and it worked out fine. But like you said, it's frowned upon due to toxins released by the trich into the substrate being again consumed by the newly growing myc. But I watched my jars like a hawk... at the first signs of contam, I resterilized. But, like I said, it's frowned upon.. no worse than smoking a pack a day if you ask me.
This entire tub was contamed at one point (a very early point, mind you):

But again, it's up to you... I'd rather look into why your substrates are failing and fix that before I'd rely on a resterilizing technique.
faht
This is what I wanted to say, but I don't have the experience to back it up.
-------------------- Redd Foxx said: If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more. Pat The Bunny said: A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me. bodhisatta said: i recommend common sense and figuring it out. These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.
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PsleepyHead
Strangest


Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 9
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: 36fuckin5] 1
#19817109 - 04/09/14 07:09 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Traditionally, I've always considered the need for USDA organic ingredients unnecessary, however, I recently read that some commercial (agricultural) seeds are intentionally infected with trichoderma hazarium, so I'm reconsidering it for now. There's even a patent for cultivating this fungus. The mold is put there to suppress other fungi and to encourage the growth of the plants. Trichoderma and other fungi can affect other organisms with mycotoxins. By releasing an especially noxious metabolite, trichoderma makes it's surroundings less ideal for other fungi to grow in.
If your substrate was previously metabolized by trichoderma its probably going to contain mycotoxins. Also, if you used non-organic nutrition ingredients (like BRF), it might contain higher traces of mycotoxins. Personally, I'm skeptical that organic crop production affects anything but my wallet but I haven't seen proof either way. Also something to keep in mind is that mycotoxins themselves are not living, they're just waste products. Sterilizing infected substrate doesn't destroy the toxin unless maybe the heat catalyzes the chemical into something less toxic.
By the way, does anyone know of a grow log that tests organic vs non-organic BRF?
Here's some links on trichoderma hazarium and how it's used in agriculture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichoderma_harzianum#Mycoparasitism http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20649416
-------------------- The person born with a talent they are meant to use will find their greatest happiness in using it. -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 4 days
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: fahtster]
#19817176 - 04/09/14 07:43 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
fahtster said: it's frowned upon due to toxins released by the trich into the substrate being again consumed by the newly growing myc.
I can't believe I just read that, especially coming from you.
Trichoderma doesn't release toxins into the substrate, nor would the mushroom mycelium pick up toxins from molds if they did. Trich is in every inch of farm and garden soil, so every vegetable you eat has been growing surrounded by it. Where are the toxins?
Every substrate in nature is 'contaminated' with molds and bacteria, yet wild mushrooms are perfectly safe to eat. Sterile procedure is simply so we can grow more indoor mushrooms in a small tray in six weeks than a few acres of pasture could deliver all summer.
Re-using contaminated substrates after sterilizing is kind of like restoring an '81 Yugo to brand-new condition after a wreck. It will still be a piece of shit. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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maddchef
Vaginal escape artist



Registered: 09/04/09
Posts: 5,602
Loc: Your mom's vag
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19817186 - 04/09/14 07:50 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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I refused to read this thread before now because of the retarded title and only popped in to see RR flame the O
The only relevant knowledge I got from this thread was googling and now knowing exactly what an 81 Yugo looks like.
I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been locked.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: maddchef]
#19817290 - 04/09/14 08:28 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
maddchef said: I'm honestly surprised this hasn't been locked.
Why? The OP and other people in the thread have stated they've had success trying this. How many people have tossed their jars or bags at the first sign of a contaminant and wasted that substrate? As I always tell people, if it works for you keep doing it.
This is a forum for sharing cultivation ideas and information. You've read the argument for and against trying it. People should be allowed to choose for themselves how to use this information. Why suppress it? Because the majority doesn't agree? Fuck that.
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Quick WBS Prep
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: FooMan]
#19817314 - 04/09/14 08:36 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've tried re-sterilizing my grain jars at the first sign of contamination to save them. Never have had success, but my grains we're prepared properly the first time I cooked them so they never did well on the second cooking.
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19817352 - 04/09/14 08:49 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've never resterilized any substrate, nor would I since I'd prefer to just get any contaminant away from my growing area ASAP to prevent any chance of the contaminant from spreading but again, if it works for other people more power to them.
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Quick WBS Prep
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maddchef
Vaginal escape artist



Registered: 09/04/09
Posts: 5,602
Loc: Your mom's vag
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: FooMan]
#19817457 - 04/09/14 09:26 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe I was a bit harsh but I was looking at it from a noob pov. There are plenty who come on here, read the front page, and put it into use. Now I know this isn't touted as a tek but I GUARANTEE someone will just look at the title then decide to go off and pc solid green jars, innoc them, then start 12 "why didn't this work" threads.
I agree discussion is what the forum is here for so my apologies for that.
-------------------- In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. All mushrooms are edible, but some only once..... Easier than cakes I do science and shit.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: maddchef]
#19817464 - 04/09/14 09:29 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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can't always worry about the children, if they're to stupid to not be able to figure it out then spreading blatant disinformation though is really frowned on but this is probably in the grey area.
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PirateSwazey



Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: bodhisatta]
#19817554 - 04/09/14 09:56 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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can we all kill this one? ok.
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,270
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19818044 - 04/09/14 11:55 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
fahtster said: it's frowned upon due to toxins released by the trich into the substrate being again consumed by the newly growing myc.
I can't believe I just read that, especially coming from you.
Trichoderma doesn't release toxins into the substrate, nor would the mushroom mycelium pick up toxins from molds if they did. Trich is in every inch of farm and garden soil, so every vegetable you eat has been growing surrounded by it. Where are the toxins?
Every substrate in nature is 'contaminated' with molds and bacteria, yet wild mushrooms are perfectly safe to eat. Sterile procedure is simply so we can grow more indoor mushrooms in a small tray in six weeks than a few acres of pasture could deliver all summer.
Re-using contaminated substrates after sterilizing is kind of like restoring an '81 Yugo to brand-new condition after a wreck. It will still be a piece of shit. RR
That's just what I was told when I did the experiment. I thought it was a good idea when I did it, but it was shot down... that was 10ish years ago though.. I wasn't necessarily saying trich toxins, but like black mold etc. I just had trich in my jars. I'm guessing a lot has been discovered since and haven't read more into it. My bad. Now I know.
faht
Edited by fahtster (04/09/14 12:10 PM)
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,270
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: fahtster]
#19818077 - 04/09/14 12:05 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here's my original post... http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5778727
damn... my energy early on in my life must have been annoying to sooo many people.. lol I'm glad I leveled out. those jars I'm talking about are the ones that I posted earlier in this thread. worked out fine.
I posted it at mycotopia and got the "it's a horrible idea because the mycelium will absorb the toxins left by the contaminates" by a bunch of people. But I guess that's what I get for posting at mycotopia. lol
I guess my question is why it isn't a more widely used/mentioned option.. or is it and I'm just not looking in the right places?
faht
Ps. Fixed my original post as well.
Edited by fahtster (04/14/14 09:25 PM)
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MrGiraffe

Registered: 04/04/14
Posts: 3,149
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Re: Re-using Contamed Substrate Saves Money!!! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#19818122 - 04/09/14 12:22 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Re-using contaminated substrates after sterilizing is kind of like restoring an '81 Yugo to brand-new condition after a wreck. It will still be a piece of shit. RR
Ahahahaha this was awesome to read, probably because my Ma had a Yugo for a yard ornament for quite a few years.
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