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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
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Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. 1
#18892460 - 09/26/13 02:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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"During the twentieth century, we witnessed the atrocities of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Rwanda and other genocides, and even though the twenty-first century is only seven years old,(2007) we have already witnessed an ongoing genocide in Darfur and the daily horrors of Iraq. This has led to a common understanding of our situation, namely that modernity has brought us terrible violence, and perhaps that native peoples lived in a state of harmony that we have departed from, to our peril.
Here is an example from an op-ed on Thanksgiving, in the Boston Globe a couple of years ago, where the writer wrote, "The Indian life was a difficult one, but there were no employment problems, community harmony was strong, substance abuse unknown, crime nearly non-existent, what warfare there was between tribes was largely ritualistic and seldom resulted in indiscriminate or wholesale slaughter." Now, you're all familiar with this treacle. We teach it to our children. We hear it on television and in storybooks. Now, the original title of this session was, "Everything You Know Is Wrong," and I'm going to present evidence that this particular part of our common understanding is wrong, that, in fact, our ancestors were far more violent than we are, that violence has been in decline for long stretches of time, and that today we are probably living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence."
I'd like to hear the communities thoughts on this. I personally find the evidence presented in this interesting, if not somewhat compelling. It's something I've personally considered for years after my observations led me to the work the late anthropologist, Neil Whitehead who has extensive work on the nature of violence.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis] 1
#18892583 - 09/26/13 03:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: "During the twentieth century, we witnessed the atrocities of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Rwanda and other genocides, and even though the twenty-first century is only seven years old,(2007) we have already witnessed an ongoing genocide in Darfur and the daily horrors of Iraq. This has led to a common understanding of our situation, namely that modernity has brought us terrible violence, and perhaps that native peoples lived in a state of harmony that we have departed from, to our peril.
Here is an example from an op-ed on Thanksgiving, in the Boston Globe a couple of years ago, where the writer wrote, "The Indian life was a difficult one, but there were no employment problems, community harmony was strong, substance abuse unknown, crime nearly non-existent, what warfare there was between tribes was largely ritualistic and seldom resulted in indiscriminate or wholesale slaughter." Now, you're all familiar with this treacle. We teach it to our children. We hear it on television and in storybooks. Now, the original title of this session was, "Everything You Know Is Wrong," and I'm going to present evidence that this particular part of our common understanding is wrong, that, in fact, our ancestors were far more violent than we are, that violence has been in decline for long stretches of time, and that today we are probably living in the most peaceful time in our species' existence."
I'd like to hear the communities thoughts on this. I personally find the evidence presented in this interesting, if not somewhat compelling. It's something I've personally considered for years after my observations led me to the work the late anthropologist, Neil Whitehead who has extensive work on the nature of violence.
I discovered this interesting "fact" a couple of years back and was surprised. I've had time to think on it and if it's true I have come to this conclusion. First of all if this now is much better than the past and relatively peaceful that just points out to how lame humanity really is. I see huge amounts of strife around me daily and not just physical but also emotional. And the loss of tribal connectedness etc, most likely makes humanity less happy even though less violent. How lame is that? Finally any really major change for the good is likely so far down the human highway it that happens that it hardly matters for us living now and far into the future. I guess I'm trying to say that this information hardly matters to me.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18896936 - 09/27/13 12:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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From my own struggles, I would have to personally agree.
I really feel that strong familial ties are lost in the face of modernity.
It's left me with a group of friends that do not know how to be brothers and sisters, I really feel like a black sheep among black sheep in part for this reason. I grew up with 2 brothers and a sister and we all went through hell together and do our best as the lost broken humans we are to lift each other up and understand each other...
A decrease in human violence may be one of the fruits of modernity born of cross cultural intellectual/empathetic tools, but increased interpersonal distress born of loss of direct contentedness is certainly a price we pay.
Cue Japanese suicide forest.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Repertoire89
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis] 1
#18898395 - 09/27/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said:
I really feel that strong familial ties are lost in the face of modernity.
That's a good thing in my opinion, it cuts off ties of arbitrary "responsibility" and allows much more room for personal growth / freedom. This is one of the best points about modern society in my opinion.
As far as the topic goes, power on this planet is very centralized at the moment and that's preventing a lot of world powers going into war. Historically speaking we're between WWII and a potential WWIII, that same centralized power which prevents smaller wars may well be exasperating the issue of a potential large scale war. Looking at where we are from the basis of the past few decades is very shallow and overlooks how broad history is, 100 years is barely worth mentioning let alone a few decades. If war comes again - the real war everyone's been worried about since 1945, this will likely be the most violent century in history.
If it doesn't happen then I'd agree things are going in a good direction as far as violence (and many other things), hopefully it doesn't happen.
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Repertoire89]
#18898662 - 09/27/13 01:13 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Repertoire89]
#18898740 - 09/27/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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If it doesn't happen then I'd agree things are going in a good direction as far as violence (and many other things), hopefully it doesn't happen.
Psychological warfare lies in social status nonetheless and it doesn't decline - if we're looking at violence in a broader perspective. Human relation defined as peace on earth is peace of mind.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18899222 - 09/27/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Repertoire89]
#18899657 - 09/27/13 05:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
Raven Gnosis said:
I really feel that strong familial ties are lost in the face of modernity.
That's a good thing in my opinion, it cuts off ties of arbitrary "responsibility" and allows much more room for personal growth / freedom. This is one of the best points about modern society in my opinion.
At least for myself personally, the relationship I have with my family encourages rather than limits my personal growth. When afraid to look at myself or accept what is wrong with me, they are people I would avoid. Even when hundreds of miles apart, we know that we are a phone call away from someone who will be open, honest and listen.
This is also something I openly extend to the members of this community.
I'm lucky to have been through circumstances with my family, albeit difficult ones that have helped us to be honest with one another and not passive aggressively ignore each-others demons and let each other get away with the ill effect they have on ourselves and the world around us, consequently learning to be more honest and responsible with ourselves.
This is what I mean when I say I have a group of friends who do not know how to be brothers and sisters. And I feel this is why I have friends in their 30's who are struggling with things I came to terms with in my late teens, they did/do not have that support system in which engenders honest independence through responsibility for self. I recognize this in the ways I personally have floundered from not having a healthy human system to encourage such growth.
Anthropologically speaking, many tribes have had social structures that encouraged this kind of introspection, sharing/healing and growing.
I see virtually none of this in our modern culture and to me, it's fruits are obvious.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis] 2
#18902201 - 09/28/13 10:25 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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our ancestors WERE far more violent than we are. in ancient rome the average family's idea of a family outing was to hit up the Colosseum and watch lions eat christians. now we just watch a bunch of huge guys smash into each other.
there appears to be a trajectory to human development, whether nietzsche and his followers want to call it progress or not
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18902243 - 09/28/13 10:41 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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We are capable of destroying this planet and every living matter on it with nuclear weapons, as per individual yet public violence, women are being stoned to death because they were raped.
I have several links to horrifying violence recorded on camera if you're interested. 10 year old children beheading the enemy?
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18902254 - 09/28/13 10:46 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: We are capable of destroying this planet and every living matter on it with nuclear weapons, as per individual yet public violence, women are being stoned to death because they were raped.
I have several links to horrifying violence recorded on camera if you're interested. 10 year old children beheading the enemy?
it's still better than it was dude. trust me I remember my past lives and shit
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18902286 - 09/28/13 10:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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it's still better than it was dude.
Warfare in the past century disagrees.
trust me I remember my past lives and shit
Don't you find violence to be sad or are you serious?
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18902300 - 09/28/13 10:58 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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violence is almost always sad but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact. I can have feelings and still assess facts without there being any contradiction
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Memories



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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18902362 - 09/28/13 11:11 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nice link Raven Gnosis! I really like Steven Pinker.
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Repertoire89
Cat



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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18902384 - 09/28/13 11:18 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: Anthropologically speaking, many tribes have had social structures that encouraged this kind of introspection, sharing/healing and growing.
I see virtually none of this in our modern culture and to me, it's fruits are obvious.
I've studied enough history to care little for the family structure, from what I've seen around me and read of our past there are few families which I would consider to be encouraging of individual freedom or emotional stability. More than anything what seems to come with closer families is a sense of 'responsibility' and claustrophobia
Quote:
morrowasted said: it's still better than it was dude. trust me I remember my past lives and shit
Theoretical personal experience based off subjectively interpreted OBEs does not qualify as evidence anywhere. For one to even trust their own subjective experiences is a slippery slope into delusion.
As it stands I think in western society we face less violence, in the rest of the world more, and the question of WWIII hanging over our heads could tip the scale very far. Overall though, if no major wars occur and a new energy source is found then as technology progresses over the next few hundred years I suspect the world will be in a much better place as a whole.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18902523 - 09/28/13 11:56 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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violence is almost always sad
Yet you laugh it off with silliness, unless you honestly believe in past-life's.
but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact.
In total per capita for the past century you may be right but please provide quality source and what periods you have in mind.
I think you're wrong if we base this on specific war-times in the past century. 4-5% of human population on earth was killed during WW2, Mao did his fair share, WW1 as well, Second Sino-Japanese War. There has been so many ultra-violent wars in the past century I doubt you will find the same violence of large scale in previous centuries, even per capita.
There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18902580 - 09/28/13 12:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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did you even watch the video?
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18902602 - 09/28/13 12:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, I didn't. Please correct me where I am wrong with written words.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18902665 - 09/28/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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My sentiments are based upon data like the data presented in the video. Just watch it. You are not likely to die at the hands of another human. There was a time when you were. It's that simple.
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Grapefruit
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18902718 - 09/28/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I discovered this interesting "fact" a couple of years back and was surprised. I've had time to think on it and if it's true I have come to this conclusion. First of all if this now is much better than the past and relatively peaceful that just points out to how lame humanity really is. I see huge amounts of strife around me daily and not just physical but also emotional. And the loss of tribal connectedness etc, most likely makes humanity less happy even though less violent. How lame is that? Finally any really major change for the good is likely so far down the human highway it that happens that it hardly matters for us living now and far into the future. I guess I'm trying to say that this information hardly matters to me. 
I think you're dead right dude. What a shame.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18902790 - 09/28/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: My sentiments are based upon data like the data presented in the video. Just watch it. You are not likely to die at the hands of another human. There was a time when you were. It's that simple.
No, I won't watch the video. You either present substantial written words as your argument or leave it.
To continue in good faith I wrote this:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact.
In total per capita for the past century you may be right but please provide quality source and what periods you have in mind.
I think you're wrong if we base this on specific war-times in the past century. 4-5% of human population on earth was killed during WW2, Mao did his fair share, WW1 as well, Second Sino-Japanese War. There has been so many ultra-violent wars in the past century I doubt you will find the same violence of large scale in previous centuries, even per capita.
There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.
Please provide solid source backing up casualties in war per capita.
Do you agree I am in the right if we base our definition on total victims of war regardless of capita? If so, this is certainly the most literate way to define the most violent century in human history?
Most:
1. a. Greatest in number: won the most votes. b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion. 2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins. n. 1. The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain. 2. Slang The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most! pron. 1. In or to the highest degree or extent. Used with many adjectives and adverbs to form the superlative degree: most honest; most impatiently. 2. Very: a most impressive piece of writing. 3. Informal Almost: Most everyone agrees.
Violent:
1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack. 2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike. 3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense. 4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death. 5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent.
Century:
1. Abbr. C. or c. or cent. a. A period of 100 years. b. Each of the successive periods of 100 years before or since the advent of the Christian era. 2. a. A unit of the Roman army originally consisting of 100 men. b. One of the 193 electoral divisions of the Roman people. 3. A group of 100 things.
Using one of the major dictionaries online: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ I don't think other major dictionaries vary much in these rather basic and general definitions.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18902874 - 09/28/13 01:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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probably the best way, imo, is based per capita. If so then the past was likely more violent.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18903052 - 09/28/13 02:35 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why is that the best way to you? What is your answer if someone asks "when was the most violent century in human history?"?
You're probably right if we ask what the "most dangerous century" to be alive was purely looking at the numbers of murder per capita. I doubt it was the past century. But it's far more dangerous being alive today than any other century based on human history and the dangers of nuclear weapons, 4 on the left allied side against 4 on the right allied side.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18903476 - 09/28/13 04:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Not to mention that the fiat system will crash eventually. It could be that we've built a dam that's going to break.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rhizoid
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18903605 - 09/28/13 05:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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TED talks are entertainment, n'est pas? Franchised entertainment even. Oprah for the intellectuals, without having to clone Oprah...
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18903817 - 09/28/13 06:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Why is that the best way to you? What is your answer if someone asks "when was the most violent century in human history?"?
You're probably right if we ask what the "most dangerous century" to be alive was purely looking at the numbers of murder per capita. I doubt it was the past century. But it's far more dangerous being alive today than any other century based on human history and the dangers of nuclear weapons, 4 on the left allied side against 4 on the right allied side.
It's the best way to me because it would better reflect your odds of personally experiencing violence.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Repertoire89
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Rhizoid] 1
#18905384 - 09/29/13 01:04 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizoid said: TED talks are entertainment, n'est pas? Franchised entertainment even. Oprah for the intellectuals, without having to clone Oprah...
You forgot to put quotations around intellectuals
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18905665 - 09/29/13 02:47 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Why is that the best way to you? What is your answer if someone asks "when was the most violent century in human history?"?
You're probably right if we ask what the "most dangerous century" to be alive was purely looking at the numbers of murder per capita. I doubt it was the past century. But it's far more dangerous being alive today than any other century based on human history and the dangers of nuclear weapons, 4 on the left allied side against 4 on the right allied side.
It's the best way to me because it would better reflect your odds of personally experiencing violence.
I agree when looking at the individual human being but not humanity in its entirety and the amount of human bloodshed on Earth. I suppose it's better basing the definition of 'per capita' to understand whether we're in decline or not, then again one factor matters such as the potential dangers of modern weapons, although examining recorded data you're most likely right. However, the correct way to literally define most violent century or any specific period on Earth is to base our answer on total number of victims of war - I should have been more specific on this in the beginning.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18905928 - 09/29/13 06:23 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I still think we are in decline.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18906042 - 09/29/13 07:28 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I do not agree although I didn't think my words through in my previous post, and it therefore look like I fully supported your view on 'decline in violence':
Quote:
liquidlounge said: I suppose it's better basing the definition of 'per capita' to understand whether we're in decline or not
This is based on individual violence and likelihood of experiencing violence, you're right that way IMO.
But if someone asks me when the most violent century or period on Earth was, I would reply with the correct answer which is our current century. What would you answer to such a question?
The post or statement I replied to in the beginning of our ongoing correspondence was the following:
Quote:
morrowasted said: our ancestors WERE far more violent than we are.
If we communicate in the most literate way, total victims of war/period is the correct answer. Or else it's rather vague and could easily inflict misunderstanding in communication. Ask me when the most dangerous period to be alive was and you're correct or at least it makes more sense IMO.
This might look like nit picking, but correctness is what drives everything forward.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18906081 - 09/29/13 07:44 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I mean the culture is in decline even though blatant violence is in decline also. (just to make that clear) I think we are at least as emotionally violent as we have ever been and maybe much more so but on vaster and more subtle levels.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18906112 - 09/29/13 07:54 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think we are at least as emotionally violent as we have ever been and maybe much more so but on vaster and more subtle levels.
I agree, as previously written in this thread:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Psychological warfare lies in social status nonetheless and it doesn't decline - if we're looking at violence in a broader perspective. Human relation defined as peace on earth is peace of mind.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18906166 - 09/29/13 08:17 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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My last post could easily be misunderstood and become a situation where you thought I was irritated at you, trying to irritate you or you think I thought you were stupid/slow. And then after you reply, I reply with: "I was just saying ".
Can you see it?
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18906192 - 09/29/13 08:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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All I can see now is
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18906938 - 09/29/13 12:22 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18906974 - 09/29/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for the link.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18906988 - 09/29/13 12:36 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're quite welcome. This had come to my attention a couple years ago (I think Icelander heard it from me, in fact). I would also suggest that the first half of the 20th century shouldn't be counted as now. The people who were adults then are almost all dead and absolutely all of the people in charge then are.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907001 - 09/29/13 12:40 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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What is the most violent century in human history?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18907034 - 09/29/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Beats me. Did you read the article?
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907097 - 09/29/13 01:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Beats me.
Isn't it obvious the past 100 years on Earth were the most violent ones?
Did you read the article?
Not yet.
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18907152 - 09/29/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180.html
I think this should provide you with what you want.
Written by the same fella' doing the lecture in the video in my OP. 
Quote:
Icelander said: I think we are at least as emotionally violent as we have ever been and maybe much more so but on vaster and more subtle levels.
Most definitely. Intellectual and emotional violence are the only forms I deal with on a daily basis, I wish I could provide evidence showing how pervasive it is in at least our culture, but as far as I can find, their hasn't been much work done in this area.
But, I'd suggest that one needs to look no further than in the threads on the Shroomery, especially in those with the ability to evoke cognitive dissonance, to find the 'truth' in this.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18907185 - 09/29/13 01:38 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Beats me.
Isn't it obvious the past 100 years on Earth were the most violent ones?
The opposite is obvious if you actually study it. Or do you have a spiffy time machine you can use to take Ted and check out any period in history?Quote:
Did you read the article?
Not yet.
I didn't think so. You have a dogma problem.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18907190 - 09/29/13 01:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180.html
I think this should provide you with what you want.
Written by the same fella' doing the lecture in the video in my OP. 
Quote:
Icelander said: I think we are at least as emotionally violent as we have ever been and maybe much more so but on vaster and more subtle levels.
Most definitely. Intellectual and emotional violence are the only forms I deal with on a daily basis, I wish I could provide evidence showing how pervasive it is in at least our culture, but as far as I can find, their hasn't been much work done in this area.
But, I'd suggest that one needs to look no further than in the threads on the Shroomery, especially in those with the ability to evoke cognitive dissonance, to find the 'truth' in this.
That isn't violence. Telling someone that they are a stupid poopyhead and making their chapped ass cry is not violent.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907289 - 09/29/13 02:09 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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The opposite is obvious if you actually study it. Or do you have a spiffy time machine you can use to take Ted and check out any period in history?
It looks like you struggle with reading comprehension, let me help you:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Most:
1. a. Greatest in number: won the most votes. b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion. 2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins. n. 1. The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain. 2. Slang The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most! pron. 1. In or to the highest degree or extent. Used with many adjectives and adverbs to form the superlative degree: most honest; most impatiently. 2. Very: a most impressive piece of writing. 3. Informal Almost: Most everyone agrees.
Violent:
1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack. 2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike. 3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense. 4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death. 5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent.
Century:
1. Abbr. C. or c. or cent. a. A period of 100 years. b. Each of the successive periods of 100 years before or since the advent of the Christian era. 2. a. A unit of the Roman army originally consisting of 100 men. b. One of the 193 electoral divisions of the Roman people. 3. A group of 100 things.
Using one of the major dictionaries online: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ I don't think other major dictionaries vary much in these rather basic and general definitions.
Doesn't most violent century simply mean total amount of violence or victims of war per century?
I didn't think so. You have a dogma problem.
How so?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18907319 - 09/29/13 02:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Read the article. It is pretty clear. I can only lead the horse to water. Better yet, he has written a whole book on the matter. Read that The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels-Our-Nature/dp/1455883115 Available at Amazon.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907337 - 09/29/13 02:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You answered neither of my two questions, how surprising.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18907588 - 09/29/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: You answered neither of my two questions, how surprising.
What questions? I sent you to a source of somebody who actually did the research. Do I need to hold your hand?. You didn't watch the video, as far as I know you didn't read the article and I'm doubly sure you will never read the book. You don't care to learn. Dogma. You are the same as the Creationists.
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Raven Gnosis
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18907639 - 09/29/13 03:39 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
That isn't violence. Telling someone that they are a stupid poopyhead and making their chapped ass cry is not violent.
From what I have learned and pondered for myself, violence is not a thing limited to physicality, its different forms are gone over in many abuse counseling courses. If I recall correctly, our words violate and violence come from the the Latin word 'violare'? which in essence are words used to describe impetuousness, which by no means is limited to physical interaction, albeit that being the most common and hence appropriate context in which it is used and understood.
I've seen varying degrees of these very behaviors among a large handful of members here, and hence would be inclined to disagree.
Emotional Violence
Emotional violence occurs when someone says or does something to make you feel stupid or worthless. Emotional violence includes, but is not limited to, the following:
- name calling;
- constant criticism;
- blaming all relationship problems on you;
- humiliating or belittling you in front of others;
- using silent treatment;
- confinement to the home;
- not allowing you to have contact with family and friends;
- destroying possessions;
- threats;
- jealousy;
- intimidation;
- stalking;
- threatening to take the children; and
- threatening to commit suicide.
Psychological Violence
Psychological violence occurs when someone uses threats and causes fear in you to gain control. Psychological violence includes, but is not limited to, the following:
- threatening to harm you, your children or your family if you leave;
- threatening to harm themselves;
- threats of violence;
- threats of abandonment;
- destruction of your personal property;
- social isolation from your family and friends;
- confinement to the home;
- verbal aggression; and
- constant humiliation.
Spiritual Violence
Spiritual violence occurs when someone uses your religious or spiritual beliefs to manipulate, dominate, or control you. Spiritual violence includes, but is not limited to, the following:
- trying to prevent you from practicing your religious or spiritual beliefs;
- making fun of your religious or spiritual beliefs;
- forcing you to raise your children in another religion or spiritual choice; and
- using your religious or spiritual beliefs to manipulate, dominate or control you.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18907691 - 09/29/13 03:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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What questions?
My two questions in this post.
You didn't watch the video, as far as I know you didn't read the article and I'm doubly sure you will never read the book. You don't care to learn. Dogma. You are the same as the Creationists.
Just how do I submit to Dogma?
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Rahz
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18907794 - 09/29/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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War and tribal conflict could account for a larger percentage of deaths than today. In between those times the level of violence wouldn't have needed to be high to support the anthropological evidence. I'm not sure if we're living in the age of reason or the age of plenty.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Rahz]
#18907995 - 09/29/13 05:22 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: War and tribal conflict could account for a larger percentage of deaths than today. In between those times the level of violence wouldn't have needed to be high to support the anthropological evidence. I'm not sure if we're living in the age of reason or the age of plenty.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18908030 - 09/29/13 05:31 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: What questions?
My two questions in this post.
You didn't watch the video, as far as I know you didn't read the article and I'm doubly sure you will never read the book. You don't care to learn. Dogma. You are the same as the Creationists.
Just how do I submit to Dogma?
I don't think you know what the word means. You have your viewpoint and aren't the least bit interested in educating yourself. You are dogmatic. You have created your own dogma.
The answer to this question, "Doesn't most violent century simply mean total amount of violence or victims of war per century?" is, obviously, "no". If there are 6 million people on the planet and 3 million die violently that is far more violent than if there are 6 billion people on the planet and 12 million die violently. Duh.
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18908042 - 09/29/13 05:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
That isn't violence. Telling someone that they are a stupid poopyhead and making their chapped ass cry is not violent.
From what I have learned and pondered for myself, violence is not a thing limited to physicality, its different forms are gone over in many abuse counseling courses. If I recall correctly, our words violate and violence come from the the Latin word 'violare'? which in essence are words used to describe impetuousness, which by no means is limited to physical interaction, albeit that being the most common and hence appropriate context in which it is used and understood.
I've seen varying degrees of these very behaviors among a large handful of members here, and hence would be inclined to disagree.
Emotional Violence
Emotional violence occurs when someone says or does something to make you feel stupid or worthless. Emotional violence includes, but is not limited to, the following:
- name calling;
- constant criticism;
- blaming all relationship problems on you;
- humiliating or belittling you in front of others;
- using silent treatment;
- confinement to the home;
- not allowing you to have contact with family and friends;
- destroying possessions;
- threats;
- jealousy;
- intimidation;
- stalking;
- threatening to take the children; and
- threatening to commit suicide.
Psychological Violence
Psychological violence occurs when someone uses threats and causes fear in you to gain control. Psychological violence includes, but is not limited to, the following:
- threatening to harm you, your children or your family if you leave;
- threatening to harm themselves;
- threats of violence;
- threats of abandonment;
- destruction of your personal property;
- social isolation from your family and friends;
- confinement to the home;
- verbal aggression; and
- constant humiliation.
Spiritual Violence
Spiritual violence occurs when someone uses your religious or spiritual beliefs to manipulate, dominate, or control you. Spiritual violence includes, but is not limited to, the following:
- trying to prevent you from practicing your religious or spiritual beliefs;
- making fun of your religious or spiritual beliefs;
- forcing you to raise your children in another religion or spiritual choice; and
- using your religious or spiritual beliefs to manipulate, dominate or control you.
That is mostly a crock of shit. What a perversion of the language if you think that is violence. Find another word.
--------------------
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Raven Gnosis
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908125 - 09/29/13 05:55 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Can you substantiate that it is a crock of shit and a perversion of the word? 
As I stated, it's etymological roots are in the Latin word 'violare' which is to dishonor, violate, use violence against, with fervor or vehemence. The word violence is as multi-contextual as its root word, which was shown in liquidlounge's dictionary reference.
Violent:
1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack. 2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike. 3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense. 4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death. 5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent.
What you're doing seems to fall into the fifth description of violent given here.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18908261 - 09/29/13 06:23 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
name calling; constant criticism; blaming all relationship problems on you; humiliating or belittling you in front of others; using silent treatment;
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. You belittle victims of real violence. Is this post an example of violent behavior in your mind? Because I most certainly intend to ridicule your opinion.
Violence 1 a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in warfare effecting illegal entry into a house)
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908309 - 09/29/13 06:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well I agree to a degree. Emotional violence can be done against children quite easily imo and while I think that no one can emotionally do us harm (as adults) without our consent we often do ourselves emotional harm.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18908375 - 09/29/13 06:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well I agree to a degree. Emotional violence can be done against children quite easily imo and while I think that no one can emotionally do us harm (as adults) without our consent we often do ourselves emotional harm.
I don't think suicide qualifies as violence
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908391 - 09/29/13 06:49 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry I said nothing about suicide.
And do you claim emotional violence is not ever done against children?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18908404 - 09/29/13 06:53 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Abuse", yes. There is no such thing as emotional "violence".
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908428 - 09/29/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You're playing semantics imo.
Another example is someone who cuts themselves. They don't do it out of boredom. It's their self talk/internal thought process that drives them to violence against themselves. There's a connection there.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18908454 - 09/29/13 07:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Playing semantics? Semantics is about the meaning of words and frankly I think it demeans the victims of real violence to have that word used when I say you are a dummy poopyhead. Not that I am doing that. Words have meaning and I am sick and tired of PC morons trying to expand emotionally evocative words with power onto definitions they never had before. And you are big violent meanie for arguing with me and I'm going to go cry.
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908482 - 09/29/13 07:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Crying is your choice. You are an adult now. Abuse, violence etc. I got the idea so it works for me. I don't care if you call it abuse or violence. A young child emotionally abused can be every bit or more fucked up as someone getting beaten up. One is not demeaning the other imo.
Types[edit]
Typology of violence[2] Violence can be divided into three broad categories according to characteristics of those committing the violent act:[2] self-directed violence interpersonal violence collective violence The nature of violent acts, on the vertical axis, can be: physical sexual psychological involving deprivation or neglect This initial categorization differentiates between violence a person inflicts upon himself or herself, violence inflicted by another individual or by a small group of individuals, and violence inflicted by larger groups such as states, organized political groups, militia groups and terrorist organizations. These three broad categories are each divided further to reflect more specific types of violence.
so semantically "psychological violence" seems to be part of the definition.
Edited by Icelander (09/29/13 07:15 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18908553 - 09/29/13 07:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
so semantically "psychological violence" seems to be part of the definition.
Only if you are a drooling PC moron. Was that violent of me to say?
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908602 - 09/29/13 07:30 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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You are ignoring the dictionary definition to suit your argument and ignore my examples of emotional violence towards children. Yet you claim semantics is important to you?
Just because your one statement may not be violent towards and adult, (although it could well be against a child) hardly proves your position.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18908667 - 09/29/13 07:47 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/violence Legal Dictionary VIOLENCE. The abuse of force. Theorie des Lois Criminelles, 32. That force which is employed against common right, against the laws, and against public liberty. Merl. h. t, 2. In cases of robbery, in order to convict the accused, it is requisite to prove that the act was done with violence;but this violence is not confined to an actual assault of the person, by beating, knocking down, or forcibly wresting from him on the contrary, whatever goes to intimidate or overawe, by the apprehension of personal violence, or by fear of life, with a view to compel the delivery of property equally falls within its limits.
This seems to say that violence does not have to be actually physical but can be psychological.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (09/29/13 07:49 PM)
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18910400 - 09/30/13 08:40 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I don't think you know what the word means. You have your viewpoint and aren't the least bit interested in educating yourself. You are dogmatic. You have created your own dogma.
I am interested in having debates based on good faith where both participants fully write down their arguments but in a reasonable length or else we're both prone to misunderstandings. You may recommend me to read a book but cannot claim I am dogmatic if I don't, this is dogma in itself. Nor will I direct you to a YouTube video as my argument unless it presents a short clip of white on black evidence and the same goes for documents on the World Wide Web. I expect you to understand this for the sake of both parts.
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: What questions?
My two questions in this post.
You didn't watch the video, as far as I know you didn't read the article and I'm doubly sure you will never read the book. You don't care to learn. Dogma. You are the same as the Creationists.
The answer to this question, "Doesn't most violent century simply mean total amount of violence or victims of war per century?" is, obviously, "no". If there are 6 million people on the planet and 3 million die violently that is far more violent than if there are 6 billion people on the planet and 12 million die violently. Duh.
Do I have to bring in the dictionary again?
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Most:
1. a. Greatest in number: won the most votes. b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion. 2. In the greatest number of instances: Most fish have fins. n. 1. The greatest amount or degree: She has the most to gain. 2. Slang The greatest, best, or most exciting. Used with the: That party was the most! pron. 1. In or to the highest degree or extent. Used with many adjectives and adverbs to form the superlative degree: most honest; most impatiently. 2. Very: a most impressive piece of writing. 3. Informal Almost: Most everyone agrees.
Violent:
1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force: a violent attack. 2. Having or showing great emotional force: violent dislike. 3. Marked by intensity; extreme: violent pain; a violent squall. See Synonyms at intense. 4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes: a violent death. 5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent.
Century:
1. Abbr. C. or c. or cent. a. A period of 100 years. b. Each of the successive periods of 100 years before or since the advent of the Christian era. 2. a. A unit of the Roman army originally consisting of 100 men. b. One of the 193 electoral divisions of the Roman people. 3. A group of 100 things.
Using one of the major dictionaries online: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ I don't think other major dictionaries vary much in these rather basic and general definitions.
Maybe this model is easier to grasp:
MOST = Greatest in number/amount VIOLENT = Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force CENTURY = A period of 100 years.
Greatest amount resulting from great force in a period of 100 years = Most Violent Century
Doesn't most violent century simply mean total amount of violence or victims of war per century?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18910988 - 09/30/13 11:54 AM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is calling somebody a mean name violence, like Icelander says? How would you be able to tell how that was in any century? The stats available pertain to actual physical violence, not calling somebody a stupid poopy head like Icelander asserts. Like that skeletons found buried long ago showed a lot more signs of violent death than is present now.
I do not know what the most violent century is. I said that already. I also pointed out that if you were interested in an answer you could READ THE BOOK. But I don't think you're all that interested to learn. You just want to spout false nonsense. Do you know why it seems we are getting more violent? Firstly there are people trying to redefine violence so as to include calling somebody a stupid poopyhead. You do not seem to be using it in that sense and it would be impossible to ascertain in any case from century to century. Let's you and me just settle on discussing physical violence. Secondly it is because we have much greater knowledge of the bad shit that happens now because of global media. It creates a false impression that things are worse today than they were before media. Pinker has done the research. It is there for you to mine. You do not seem to care all that much.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911021 - 09/30/13 12:03 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you agree there has been more victims of violence IN TOTAL regardless of whether it's physical or psychological this century than any other century? Ignore the concept of 'per capita'.
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911035 - 09/30/13 12:06 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is calling somebody a mean name violence, like Icelander says?
Yes it can be in the case of verbal child abuse. Also the dictionary seems to agree that there is such a thing as psychological violence. Even a legal dictionary. You may like to define terms according to your needs or omit portions of dictionary definitions but it doesn't change the facts. Violence is more than just physical according to the dictionary. It can have psychological components as in the case of child abuse as I stated and you ignored.
All I have "asserted" is in agreement of what the dictionary claims to be a valid definition.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911127 - 09/30/13 12:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Do you agree there has been more victims of violence IN TOTAL regardless of whether it's physical or psychological this century than any other century? Ignore the concept of 'per capita'.
This century? No. This century is only 13 years old. The last hundred years? Probably. The population has quadrupled since 1900. Why would you ignore the concept of per capita? That's ridiculous. By your criteria if everybody alive in AD 1 was murdered it would be less violent (physically, who knows how many people got called a stupid poopyhead then)) than if 0.3% of the population suffers from violence in 2010. Per capita is the only way to measure it. Likelihood of dying a violent death. Likelihood.
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911147 - 09/30/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Per capita is the only way that makes sense imo.
Compared to the past this probably could be called the peaceable kingdom.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911185 - 09/30/13 12:48 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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This century? No. This century is only 13 years old.
My bad, I mixed up and should obviously have written the past century.
The last hundred years? Probably. The population has quadrupled since 1900.
There's no probability, it's a fact - at least physical violence. And it backs up my question:
Most violent century in human history?
If we answer in the most literate and correct way.
Why would you ignore the concept of per capita? That's ridiculous.
We have never debated 'per capita' but what the most violent century in human history was. Unless you define words the way you want to and not literally based on major/legal dictionaries.
By your criteria if everybody alive in AD 1 was murdered it would be less violent (physically, who knows how many people got called a stupid poopyhead then)) than if 0.3% of the population suffers from violence in 2010. Per capita is the only way to measure it. Likelihood of dying a violent death. Likelihood.
Certainly, if our starting point was 'per capita'. It was not, our correspondence began with:
What is the most violent century in human history?
Based on every dictionary out there this means the total amount of victims of violence per century.
-------------------- As far as I assume to know...
Edited by liquidlounge (09/30/13 12:48 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911195 - 09/30/13 12:50 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Technically I guess you have a case. I seriously doubt however that was the intent of the OP.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911219 - 09/30/13 01:00 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually the thread started out with a video of Steven pinker discussing the decline of violence in modern times. The video that you did not watch. Nor did you bother to read the article, which was all about per capita and not absolute number.
You also wrote this
Quote:
liquidlounge said: violence is almost always sad
Yet you laugh it off with silliness, unless you honestly believe in past-life's.
but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact.
In total per capita for the past century you may be right but please provide quality source and what periods you have in mind.
I think you're wrong if we base this on specific war-times in the past century. 4-5% of human population on earth was killed during WW2, Mao did his fair share, WW1 as well, Second Sino-Japanese War. There has been so many ultra-violent wars in the past century I doubt you will find the same violence of large scale in previous centuries, even per capita.
There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.
You just about doubled the percent for WW2 but that's OK. You brought in per capita when you used percent. As to another point, WW2 was 70 years ago. That is not today. Mao is not today and Stalin is not today. They are the past, not the present. By far most of the people alive then are dead now, certainly all of the leaders.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18911228 - 09/30/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Technically I guess you have a case. I seriously doubt however that was the intent of the OP.
It most certainly was not. Everybody alive today is less likely to suffer from violence than at any other time in human history.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Icelander]
#18911254 - 09/30/13 01:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I seriously doubt however that was the intent of the OP.
But there is room for switching lanes in the very same subject so long as everyone pays attention of course. Unfortunately zappa did not although he answered the question and thereby created a debate out of it. This is what I have been trying to explain on the last two pages. Is it just me or the lack of awareness in my surroundings...?
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911288 - 09/30/13 01:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Actually the thread started out with a video of Steven pinker discussing the decline of violence in modern times. The video that you did not watch. Nor did you bother to read the article, which was all about per capita and not absolute number.
What the thread began with is irrelevant in regards to our correspondence and my question directed towards you which you answered.
You just about doubled the percent for WW2 but that's OK. You brought in per capita when you used percent.
That was another metric, as you hopefully understand now, I used three different metrics in which the following is what I have based our debate on:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.
As to another point, WW2 was 70 years ago. That is not today. Mao is not today and Stalin is not today. They are the past, not the present. By far most of the people alive then are dead now, certainly all of the leaders.
We're debating the past century , or the past 100 years contra other centuries - are we not?
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge] 1
#18911384 - 09/30/13 01:46 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Anyone who failed to watch the video is being intentionally ignorant is and doesn't deserve to participate in this discussion
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18911488 - 09/30/13 02:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: Anyone who failed to watch the video is being intentionally ignorant is and doesn't deserve to participate in this discussion
Oh, so if I want to debate in a thread on Christianity, I must have read The Bible?
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911517 - 09/30/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
morrowasted said: Anyone who failed to watch the video is being intentionally ignorant is and doesn't deserve to participate in this discussion
Oh, so if I want to debate in a thread on Christianity, I must have read The Bible?
If you want to debate with me, yes. I take things seriously, and that means researching them. I have read the Bible and the Qur'an and I feel that having done so increases my capacity to debate the religions they spawned significantly. Watching this video does not take very much time compared to reading a book.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18911554 - 09/30/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you want to debate with me, yes. I take things seriously, and that means researching them.
I have researched violence, or I assume to have a fairly decent grip on the subject of violence.
I have read the Bible and the Qur'an and I feel that having done so increases my capacity to debate the religions they spawned significantly.
Whatever works for you.
Watching this video does not take very much time compared to reading a book.
I feel that I have put up for a decent position which no one has managed to properly challenge yet, so no I don't feel the need to watch this video. Unless you have a specific time in the video you find relevant to my stance which is literally answering the question:
What is the most violent century in human history?
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911601 - 09/30/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: violence is almost always sad
Yet you laugh it off with silliness, unless you honestly believe in past-life's.
but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact.
In total per capita for the past century you may be right but please provide quality source and what periods you have in mind.
I think you're wrong if we base this on specific war-times in the past century. 4-5% of human population on earth was killed during WW2, Mao did his fair share, WW1 as well, Second Sino-Japanese War. There has been so many ultra-violent wars in the past century I doubt you will find the same violence of large scale in previous centuries, even per capita.
There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.
No it isn't. You are far less lilely to be a victim of violence now than at any other time in history. Get over it.Quote:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: Actually the thread started out with a video of Steven pinker discussing the decline of violence in modern times. The video that you did not watch. Nor did you bother to read the article, which was all about per capita and not absolute number.
What the thread began with is irrelevant in regards to our correspondence and my question directed towards you which you answered.
You just about doubled the percent for WW2 but that's OK. You brought in per capita when you used percent.
That was another metric, as you hopefully understand now, I used three different metrics in which the following is what I have based our debate on:
You may have based the debate on it after you got your ass handed to you but I didn't and neither did Pinker. It's a ridiculous metric and no thinking person would use it. I have pointed out the fallacy quite clearly.Quote:
Quote:
liquidlounge said: There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.
As to another point, WW2 was 70 years ago. That is not today. Mao is not today and Stalin is not today. They are the past, not the present. By far most of the people alive then are dead now, certainly all of the leaders.
We're debating the past century , or the past 100 years contra other centuries - are we not?
No we are not. As I pointed out you were asking about this century, which began 13 years ago. And frankly it is ridiculous to argue absolute numbers, as I have pointed out numerous times, for any period.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911608 - 09/30/13 02:42 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: If you want to debate with me, yes. I take things seriously, and that means researching them.
I have researched violence, or I assume to have a fairly decent grip on the subject of violence.
I have read the Bible and the Qur'an and I feel that having done so increases my capacity to debate the religions they spawned significantly.
Whatever works for you.
Watching this video does not take very much time compared to reading a book.
I feel that I have put up for a decent position which no one has managed to properly challenge yet, so no I don't feel the need to watch this video. Unless you have a specific time in the video you find relevant to my stance which is literally answering the question:
What is the most violent century in human history?
It isn't this one and it isn't the twentieth
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morrowasted
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911611 - 09/30/13 02:43 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Liquid: The video challenges your position. We don't feel the need to transcribe it.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18911620 - 09/30/13 02:44 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Reply to fail.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911705 - 09/30/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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No it isn't. You are far less lilely to be a victim of violence now than at any other time in history. Get over it.
Sure, I never disagreed with this.
Fact is the last 100 years has been the most violent on Earth ever.
Do I need to bring in the dictionary again?
You may have based the debate on it after you got your ass handed to you but I didn't and neither did Pinker. It's a ridiculous metric and no thinking person would use it. I have pointed out the fallacy quite clearly.
Terrible argumentation - reminds me of high school.
No we are not. As I pointed out you were asking about this century, which began 13 years ago.
I meant the past century but mixed up in that specific post, as previously mentioned here. All along I have directed my question and statements towards the past century or 100 years apart from that one post i expressed myself incorrectly.
And frankly it is ridiculous to argue absolute numbers, as I have pointed out numerous times, for any period.
This is the question you answered, I find it weird you answer something you find ridiculous debating.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18911728 - 09/30/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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It isn't this one and it isn't the twentieth
The numbers, black on white prove I am right. 1900 -> 2000 is overrepresented in amount of casualties and this means it literally is the most violent century. Wikipedia is legitimate on such subject, view sources at the bottom if you disagree.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911744 - 09/30/13 03:20 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: violence is almost always sad
Yet you laugh it off with silliness, unless you honestly believe in past-life's.
but that doesn't change the fact that it the amount of violence as a percentage of the population has decreased. anecdotes don't change that fact.
In total per capita for the past century you may be right but please provide quality source and what periods you have in mind.
I think you're wrong if we base this on specific war-times in the past century. 4-5% of human population on earth was killed during WW2, Mao did his fair share, WW1 as well, Second Sino-Japanese War. There has been so many ultra-violent wars in the past century I doubt you will find the same violence of large scale in previous centuries, even per capita.
There's no doubt the past century is the most violent in history looking at the total victims of war regardless of capita. It's literally the most violent period in human history.
Quote:
liquidlounge said: No it isn't. You are far less lilely to be a victim of violence now than at any other time in history. Get over it.
Sure, I never disagreed with this.
Fact is the last 100 years has been the most violent on Earth ever.
Do I need to bring in the dictionary again?
Your dictionary will not help you. If you are less likely to die from violence now then the last hundred years have not been the most violent in history. Like I said earlier, if every single person in AD 1 was murdered by your ridiculous metric it would still be less violent than the 20th century. You are becoming an absurdist.Quote:
You may have based the debate on it after you got your ass handed to you but I didn't and neither did Pinker. It's a ridiculous metric and no thinking person would use it. I have pointed out the fallacy quite clearly.
Terrible argumentation - reminds me of high school.
The fact is I have pointed out the ridiculousness of your metric several times and you continue to ignore it. Reminds me of high school except not in the debate class. More like the gym.Quote:
No we are not. As I pointed out you were asking about this century, which began 13 years ago.
I meant the past century but mixed up in that specific post, as previously mentioned here. All along I have directed my question and statements towards the past century or 100 years apart from that one post i expressed myself incorrectly.
And frankly it is ridiculous to argue absolute numbers, as I have pointed out numerous times, for any period.
This is the question you answered, I find it weird you answer something you find ridiculous debating.
I am not debating. I am educating. As was Pinker. You, on the other hand, are doing neither. You are being nonsensical to save face. And I am being a total asshole by not letting you get away wit reams and reams of bullshit. Pat Metheny my ass. How pompous can you be?
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: morrowasted]
#18911749 - 09/30/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: Liquid: The video challenges your position. We don't feel the need to transcribe it.
The video might take a stance on most violent per capita, but not most violent period on Earth. Unless it mentions this century or modern period as the most violent. If the people directly claim another century is more violent than this one they're wrong and need to improve their English language.
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Rahz
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911765 - 09/30/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Isn't it just a matter of context?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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zappaisgod
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18911807 - 09/30/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said:
Quote:
morrowasted said: Liquid: The video challenges your position. We don't feel the need to transcribe it.
The video might take a stance on most violent per capita, but not most violent period on Earth. Unless it mentions this century or modern period as the most violent. If the people directly claim another century is more violent than this one they're wrong and need to improve their English language.
No, you are going to have to improve your reasoning skills. The only thing that matters is per capita, as I have clearly proven with my AD1 vs 1940 analogy. You're starting to drool on yourself now.
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liquidlounge

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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916389 - 10/01/13 02:05 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Your dictionary will not help you.
Any major dictionary will support my position.
If you are less likely to die from violence now then the last hundred years have not been the most violent in history. Like I said earlier, if every single person in AD 1 was murdered by your ridiculous metric it would still be less violent than the 20th century. You are becoming an absurdist.
I base my positions literally, you do not.
I am not debating. I am educating. As was Pinker. You, on the other hand, are doing neither. You are being nonsensical to save face. And I am being a total asshole by not letting you get away wit reams and reams of bullshit. Pat Metheny my ass. How pompous can you be?
If you can't agree most violent century means total amount of victims of violence per century we have nothing more to talk about. You're not corresponding literally but instead create your own definitions.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916395 - 10/01/13 02:07 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, you are going to have to improve your reasoning skills. The only thing that matters is per capita, as I have clearly proven with my AD1 vs 1940 analogy. You're starting to drool on yourself now.
You have not demonstrated the fact of most violent century meaning per capita and not amount of victims because it's not reality.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18916465 - 10/01/13 02:24 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Your dictionary will not help you.
Any major dictionary will support my position.
If you are less likely to die from violence now then the last hundred years have not been the most violent in history. Like I said earlier, if every single person in AD 1 was murdered by your ridiculous metric it would still be less violent than the 20th century. You are becoming an absurdist.
I base my positions literally, you do not.
Per capita is all that mattersQuote:
I am not debating. I am educating. As was Pinker. You, on the other hand, are doing neither. You are being nonsensical to save face. And I am being a total asshole by not letting you get away wit reams and reams of bullshit. Pat Metheny my ass. How pompous can you be?
If you can't agree most violent century means total amount of victims of violence per century we have nothing more to talk about. You're not corresponding literally but instead create your own definitions.
I can't agree with that. I have pointed out repeatedly how asinine it is
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18916471 - 10/01/13 02:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: No, you are going to have to improve your reasoning skills. The only thing that matters is per capita, as I have clearly proven with my AD1 vs 1940 analogy. You're starting to drool on yourself now.
You have not demonstrated the fact of most violent century meaning per capita and not amount of victims because it's not reality.
I'm sorry for you.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916485 - 10/01/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Per capita is all that matters
Not according to the dictionary.
I can't agree with that. I have pointed out repeatedly how asinine it is
Not according to the dictionary.
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916508 - 10/01/13 02:32 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm sorry for you.
For dealing with this? Yes you're right so far IMO.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18916812 - 10/01/13 03:25 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: I'm sorry for you.
For dealing with this? Yes you're right so far IMO.
I'm going to ask this quite clearly
In AD 1 there were approximately 200 million people on the planet if every one of them was murdered, (except two) would that be a less violent century than one on which there are 6 billion people but 250 million are murdered? In the first instance you have a 100% assurance of being murdered. In the second you have approximately a 4% chance of being murdered. Which century is more violent?
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liquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: zappaisgod]
#18916953 - 10/01/13 03:58 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Which century is more violent?
As per definition, the century with 6 billion people.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: liquidlounge]
#18917599 - 10/01/13 06:18 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
liquidlounge said: Which century is more violent?
As per definition, the century with 6 billion people.
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rev0kadavur
Forager



Registered: 03/18/10
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Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: Ted Talks: The surprising decline in violence. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#18921541 - 10/02/13 02:14 PM (10 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ted Talks are always interesting..
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