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Invisiblecez
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Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,854
Bird watching
    #18887499 - 09/25/13 12:29 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I find myself becoming attracted to watching birds do bird stuff.

What do birds and other animals do to react to each other so quickly?

How is their group-think so efficient?


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞
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Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
Re: Bird watching [Re: cez]
    #18887633 - 09/25/13 01:38 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Cool that you're recognizing the intelligence and beauty of the animal kingdom. :thumbup:

I have a soft spot for birds, end up doing a lot of bird watching while out in the bush.

The 'think dynamic' among birds varies from species to species.

European Starlings for instance, can flock by the thousands and act much like a singular organism as they move around in a surreal fluid like manner, establishing social position for the massive roost, among other things. They are also in the Myna family which gives them the ability to mimic a great deal of other bird calls and random sounds...




Or the intelligence of crows. (Full Episode-NATURE A Murder of Crows)


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Bird watching [Re: cez]
    #18887860 - 09/25/13 04:43 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cez said:
I find myself becoming attracted to watching birds do bird stuff.

What do birds and other animals do to react to each other so quickly?

How is their group-think so efficient?




They react mostly out of instinct rather than thought like we do so there is no conflicted thoughts to slow them.  I do a lot of bird/animal watching too.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #18888476 - 09/25/13 09:34 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I'm starting to draw very similar conclusions about humans, albeit our manner of doing so seems more complex and trickier to notice in ourselves and each-other.
(I'm assuming it's a similar intellectual function as the mental structures born of death anxiety, a thing we shield ourselves against due to its dis-quieting nature.)


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #18888961 - 09/25/13 11:57 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
They react mostly out of instinct rather than thought like we do so there is no conflicted thoughts to slow them.  I do a lot of bird/animal watching too.



Even if we act based on thought, that thought is entirely instinctual.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Male


Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Bird watching [Re: NetDiver]
    #18889206 - 09/25/13 01:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's not my point however. Our thoughts tend to be all too often in conflict with each other.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblecez
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Posts: 5,854
Re: Bird watching [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #18889582 - 09/25/13 02:27 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Raven,

Those videos :thumbup:


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #18889614 - 09/25/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

cez said:
I find myself becoming attracted to watching birds do bird stuff.

What do birds and other animals do to react to each other so quickly?

How is their group-think so efficient?




They react mostly out of instinct rather than thought like we do so there is no conflicted thoughts to slow them.  I do a lot of bird/animal watching too.




How do you think each individual instinct is intuitively the same though (for the most part)?

It makes me think we as humans are damned with the power of intellect and self-reflection, regardless of how awesome we think it is.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Bird watching [Re: cez]
    #18889675 - 09/25/13 02:53 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Not sure what you mean by that question?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblecez
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #18890117 - 09/25/13 04:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Sry, I don't know how to express my curiosity towards this subject in a logical way :shrug:


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Bird watching [Re: cez]
    #18890274 - 09/25/13 05:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Depends on the bird, but something the size of a robin is gonna have a heart rate of about 550 beats a minute, so they may be doing everything else quicker too.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Bird watching [Re: falcon] * 2
    #18890589 - 09/25/13 06:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There are many fish species that act exactly the same way



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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 8,535
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Re: Bird watching [Re: cez]
    #18890711 - 09/25/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

The "group-think" you're describing could be considered swarming. It's the behavior that allows starlings to form massive, cohesive groups. Fish swarm, too. Surprisingly, humans do, too (big surprise: we're followers).

The incredible thing about swarms is that they look unnervingly complex, but they are actually emergent properties born from a few rules each individual within the swarm follows. For example, starlings swarm based on what the majority of their neighbors are doing. One can appreciate how this simple rule breaks into a ripple effect when the number within the group grows.

So, out of a few variables, this crazy thing arises.

Alignment with only the closest neighbors produces … nothing but a disordered swarm.


Raise the alignment and the chaotic swarm swirls into a doughnut shape called a torus.

You've likely heard of feedback, whether in regards to something simple like getting a grade on an assignment or something complex, like electrical circuits. I think the underlying concept to swarming is that the feedback reaches a critical mass (which is dependent on the total population of the group, as well as environmental factors & prob fucktons of other variables) and sets off a chain reaction. Swarming is the result of a positive feedback loop (a type of feedback that amplifies a reaction, rather than suppresses it).

I got the images from Wired magazine's article How the Science of Swarms Can Help Us Fight Cancer and Predict the Future. It is definitely worth a read if you're interested in decision making, systems theory, feedback mechanisms, and other stuff like that.


--------------------
full blown human


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18890724 - 09/25/13 06:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You just killed the idea of telepathic communication among animals! :hissyfit:

Next you will tell us that water does not understand English and respond to emotion: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread972472/pg1&mem=


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
Shamanic Panic
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Re: Bird watching [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18890737 - 09/25/13 06:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I prepare my water with tender, loving care and try not to waste it. It tastes better that way. :yesnod:


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full blown human


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18890771 - 09/25/13 07:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

If you read that ATS thread it is filled with enough fail to last a lifetime. However, it does present some great business opportunities... *rubs hands together greedily*


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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Penelope_Tree] * 1
    #18890786 - 09/25/13 07:08 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Falconry is where it's at.  It's like birdwatching where you bring your own bird.  I've decided this is going to be a future hobby for me within the next 5-10 years.  I need to carve out the time for apprenticeship and caring for a bird, but I think it would be totally worth it. As far as hunting methods go it's probably one of the most ethically sound there is .



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Invisiblecez
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18892119 - 09/26/13 12:22 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I am enjoying all the contributions to this thread.
...I feel like I just learned something! :wink:

I considered fish pretty much dumb, but I overlooked their "swarming" capabilities...I'm sure they have other neat tendencies too that I'm just ignorant of.


..And falconry would be fucking awesome.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Bird watching [Re: cez]
    #19473366 - 01/25/14 06:23 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)



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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Bird watching [Re: falcon]
    #19473472 - 01/25/14 06:49 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

I have a pretty cool feeding station.  At times over 30 birds and maybe 6 or more species at a time.  My faves are Goldfinches and  Northern Flickers.
http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/northern_flicker_4.htm
http://sdakotabirds.com/species/american_goldfinch_info.htm


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Bird watching [Re: cez]
    #19474331 - 01/25/14 10:31 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Yeah, well, after over half a year of having every window and sliding glass door attacked from dawn to dusk by stupid Cardinals who mistake their reflection for a competitor, I had to purchase bird netting and have begun to cover their favorite windows of attack. I'm using spring clothes pins attached to the rails of the accordion hurricane shutters. I have translucent drop cloths duct-taped to two large windows in the den which allows light in but prevents the birds from seeing a reflection. If I wasn't against violence, I'd have soaked bird seed in Ativan by now and put them to sleep - permanently. I know their chirp now, and I hate it. I have had to chase them away numerous times (they hit with a bang) or throw a pillow at the bottom of the glass door next to our bed. They've been driving us crazy. I don't mind the Ibises, Snowy Egrets, or the Bard Owl that swooped me years ago. A Blue Heron is quite the site. I never saw Cardinals in Miami before, but one did this for one day in NJ some 26 or 27 years ago at my parents' house. This however is anything but amusing.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Re: Bird watching [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19474497 - 01/25/14 11:11 PM (10 years, 5 days ago)

After your stories about your Miami hood, I'm surprised you go for sliding glass doors at all.... I live downtown in Portland with deadlocks that have to be key unlocked on each side of wooden doors (apparently that's illegal in Cali).  Sometimes I'm not so sure if that won't come back to haunt me in a fire/emergency scenario, if I need out and misplaced or don't have time for my key... I figure I could still jump out a window, but who knows. :shrug:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Bird watching [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19474773 - 01/26/14 12:17 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

I rarely lock my doors. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #19474790 - 01/26/14 12:20 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

"Come on in!" said the spider to the fly.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #19474955 - 01/26/14 01:21 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I rarely lock my doors. :shrug:




I never used to when living in SE OH.... My first rental was a farmhouse when going to school in Athens, OH.... not so much as lock on my car, door, or window... Then I moved to Old Town E. Columbus, OH -> Cap. Hill Seattle -> Sunnyside Portland = locks, locks, locks.  These lifestyles offers me money and cultural opportunities that I didn't have access to then, but undoubtably am missing out on advantages I had then.  You win some, you lose some :shrug:  Should I live to a ripe age, I do see myself dying with no locks.... dreamingly in Maui, at consolation maybe Bellingham, WA :shrug:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Bird watching [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19475622 - 01/26/14 07:39 AM (10 years, 5 days ago)

Well when I leave the house there is usually still a 110 lb. pit bull mix sleeping near the door. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #19476745 - 01/26/14 01:07 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

My favorite is the song sparrow, but the Jays are the most amusing to watch. The Jays used to compete with the squirrels for peanuts, now they just watch where they bury them and collect them later.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Bird watching [Re: falcon] * 1
    #19477280 - 01/26/14 03:21 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Corvids are fucking smart.  I've had them outsmart me and I'm a huge genius. :imspecial:

Btw we have a lot of gold crowned and white crowned sparrows here. Very beautiful imo.
http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/white_crowned_sparrow_4.htm
http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/golden_crowned_sparrow_3.htm


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #19477312 - 01/26/14 03:29 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Something comes yearly in the summer to my neighbor's tree across a fence....... and makes a truly hideous call that I can only describe as vomiting inverted..... I think I've seen it once, and may have a pretty, long pointed blue tail... :shrug:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Bird watching [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19477329 - 01/26/14 03:32 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Scrub jay?
http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/western_scrub_jay.htm

Another corvid.  (crow family)  Corvidae are known for their nasty voices.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/26/14 03:34 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #19477351 - 01/26/14 03:36 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Scrub jay?
http://sdakotabirds.com/species_photos/western_scrub_jay.htm

Another corvid.  (crow family)  Corvidae are known for their nasty voices.





YES! SCRUB JAY!  100% positively identified, damn you're good :lol:



Fuck that noise!  Check at 1:42, that's precisely the noise it makes.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: Bird watching [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #19477373 - 01/26/14 03:39 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
The "group-think" you're describing could be considered swarming. It's the behavior that allows starlings to form massive, cohesive groups. Fish swarm, too. Surprisingly, humans do, too (big surprise: we're followers).

The incredible thing about swarms is that they look unnervingly complex, but they are actually emergent properties born from a few rules each individual within the swarm follows. For example, starlings swarm based on what the majority of their neighbors are doing. One can appreciate how this simple rule breaks into a ripple effect when the number within the group grows.

So, out of a few variables, this crazy thing arises.

Alignment with only the closest neighbors produces … nothing but a disordered swarm.


Raise the alignment and the chaotic swarm swirls into a doughnut shape called a torus.

You've likely heard of feedback, whether in regards to something simple like getting a grade on an assignment or something complex, like electrical circuits. I think the underlying concept to swarming is that the feedback reaches a critical mass (which is dependent on the total population of the group, as well as environmental factors & prob fucktons of other variables) and sets off a chain reaction. Swarming is the result of a positive feedback loop (a type of feedback that amplifies a reaction, rather than suppresses it).

I got the images from Wired magazine's article How the Science of Swarms Can Help Us Fight Cancer and Predict the Future. It is definitely worth a read if you're interested in decision making, systems theory, feedback mechanisms, and other stuff like that.




that's great info!
the crowned sparrows are pretty
I like corvids - especially magpies and ravens, but hawks and owls are the best for me.

I have dreamed of being a large red bird with legs like a stork but larger body; I was wading in a river with several others of my ilk; maybe it was during a dinosaur phase in my hypothetical evolution of the soul...


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Bird watching [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19477483 - 01/26/14 04:05 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

:lol:  I have one that makes my yard part of it's territory. Used to be a pair but one is dead. Likely a hawk.  But I have come to appreciate it. I look for him and put out special treats for him or her. If I remember right corvids mate for life.  I once saw a hawk take one and for two days saw the mate come to the place it happened and look forlornly at the feathers on the ground.  I felt very sad about it I have to admit.  I'm hoping that my jay will find another mate and I will hear them screech out their love for each other once more.  Plus if you look at them closely in very good binoculars they are stunning.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #19477566 - 01/26/14 04:22 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:lol:  I have one that makes my yard part of it's territory. Used to be a pair but one is dead. Likely a hawk.  But I have come to appreciate it. I look for him and put out special treats for him or her. If I remember right corvids mate for life.  I once saw a hawk take one and for two days saw the mate come to the place it happened and look forlornly at the feathers on the ground.  I felt very sad about it I have to admit.  I'm hoping that my jay will find another mate and I will hear them screech out their love for each other once more.  Plus if you look at them closely in very good binoculars they are stunning.






I was just reading on wiki:

"Recent research has suggested that Western Scrub Jays, along with several other corvids, are among the most intelligent of animals. The brain-to-body mass ratio of adult Scrub Jays rivals that of chimpanzees and cetaceans, and is dwarfed only by that of humans. Scrub Jays are also the only non-primate or non-dolphin shown to plan ahead for the future, which was previously thought of as a uniquely human trait.[7] Other studies have shown that they can remember locations of over 200 food caches, as well as the food item in each cache and its rate of decay.[8] Western scrub jays also summon others to screech over the body of a dead jay, according to new research from the University of California, Davis. The birds' cacophonous "funerals" can last for up to half an hour."

What a nightmare :lol: I'm pretty sure it's just one little guy making all the ruckus here.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Bird watching [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #19477601 - 01/26/14 04:29 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

Like I said I love them.  And don't they just remind you a tad of Crowley RGVs?:haha:

I actually took care of a crow named Cromley.  He could speak and say hello and one or two other words. He'd untie your shoe laces if you weren't watching and take a button to boot.  He was a real pain in the ass at times but very very cool headed and a great sense of humor. He had been injured and could no longer fly.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #19477657 - 01/26/14 04:39 PM (10 years, 4 days ago)

:lol: I was curious to see if I could find anything like that on youtube...



This is cute, it seems like the crow is untying a shoe to distract this person to make a go for his pan...


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlinefalcon
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Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,005
Last seen: 18 hours, 17 minutes
Re: Bird watching [Re: Icelander]
    #24260504 - 04/20/17 09:04 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Happy birthday Icelander!

I thought of you when I saw this today.


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
Re: Bird watching [Re: falcon]
    #24260517 - 04/20/17 09:10 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Happy birthday Icelander :cheers:


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