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Offlineiaskshrumquestions
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No Growth grain jar -- What do?
    #18886034 - 09/24/13 05:54 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

possibly pertinent info:
  • Strain: Treasure Coast
  • Grain used: Hard Red Wheat Berries
  • Jars were wiped down with a bleach solution before loading grains in
  • 1/2 Teaspoon of bonemeal tumbled in with grains
  • Sterilized 2x, Once for sterility, again to cook off excess moisture
  • After inoculation, jars were shaken and tumbled before being placed in incubator (~78-80 degree range)


No growth has shown up (of any kind) and I'm wondering why.
I suspect a couple of those bullets could have been a mistake but would like some opinions. I have WBS from the same innoc needle that are doing very well -- Might try a wbs2g to see if that gets the ball rolling.


--------------------
All mushrooms are edible, but some only once


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: iaskshrumquestions]
    #18886040 - 09/24/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You shouldn't need to sterilize twice.  When prepping your grains a quick simmer or boil and then strain should dry the outside of your grains, which is all you should need.  You also don't need to use a bleach solution, as your PC run should kill any nastiness inside the jar.  Finally, you aren't supposed to shake your jars after MS inoculation.  How long has it been?  After a couple weeks your chances of anything showing up decrease greatly with every passing day, and it might just be worth it to start over.


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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: iaskshrumquestions]
    #18886154 - 09/24/13 06:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

iaskshrumquestions said:
possibly pertinent info:
  • Strain: Treasure Coast
  • Grain used: Hard Red Wheat Berries
  • Jars were wiped down with a bleach solution before loading grains in
  • 1/2 Teaspoon of bonemeal tumbled in with grains
  • Sterilized 2x, Once for sterility, again to cook off excess moisture
  • After inoculation, jars were shaken and tumbled before being placed in incubator (~78-80 degree range)


No growth has shown up (of any kind) and I'm wondering why.
I suspect a couple of those bullets could have been a mistake but would like some opinions. I have WBS from the same innoc needle that are doing very well -- Might try a wbs2g to see if that gets the ball rolling.




how did you prep your grain. The soak length, drying, time in PC?

Any bleach get on the inside and not get rinsed out?

I don't know anything about bone meal but try gypsum next time

Don't double sterilize you'll only burn grains and make the water content even worse.

Don't shake after inoculation unless you put an agar wedge in the jar. Shake at ~30% colonization.


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Offlineiaskshrumquestions
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18886323 - 09/24/13 07:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Grain prep:

1 Cup Grain : 1 Cup Water in Pint jar

Let it soak for 24-48 hours with the occasional stir. Once Water was frothy, and orange, I dumped out the grains in a strainer and ran the bath faucet over them for a minute or two while tumbling.

PC'd once but had to let them sit for a day in the pot due to work schedule. They looked fairly moist in the jar and had been sitting in a tepid climate for ~24 hours so they were cooked again with my next batch.

Jars most likely had bleach ("all natural cleaner that's not bleach but actually is") residue on the inside of the jars as I wiped them down with quite a bit of it (had a large contamination last time around)

When they came out they actually looked fine once I gave it a thud to check for clumps. As for shaking, I just assumed that, since it was grain, it might be beneficial to give it a tumble in order to coat every thing.


--------------------
All mushrooms are edible, but some only once


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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: iaskshrumquestions]
    #18886368 - 09/24/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I would watch RR's lets grow mushroom grain prep or Frank's
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17252080#17252080

You'll probably want to boil the grains prior to loading them in the jars at some point to hydrate them so they don't get all burst from the PC cycle. Some people like to rinse grains a few times before the soak too so the soak water is pretty clear. This helps with clumping later down the road. I would also avoid any cleaners on the inside of the jars that doesn't get rinsed off. It's probably nothing but you never know. Either way the bleach is corner cutting and won't help you do thing's proper to avoid the contamination the PC will clean your jars better than any chem ever will.


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Offlineiaskshrumquestions
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18886411 - 09/24/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:


You'll probably want to boil the grains prior to loading them in the jars at some point to hydrate them so they don't get all burst from the PC cycle. Some people like to rinse grains a few times before the soak too so the soak water is pretty clear. This helps with clumping later down the road.





But then how is this different from soaking the grains for a day to release endospores, rinsing thoroughly, and PC'ing them for ~1 to 1.5 hours with added fresh water in the jar?

Quote:


I would also avoid any cleaners on the inside of the jars that doesn't get rinsed off. It's probably nothing but you never know. Either way the bleach is corner cutting and won't help you do thing's proper to avoid the contamination the PC will clean your jars better than any chem ever will.




2 PCs and a bleach rub with sterile conditions isn't cutting corners... I had used bleach because I've read that the strains seem surprisingly resistant to it.  I'm assuming that isn't so at a spore level, but more so at a mycelial level. That's my theory at least


--------------------
All mushrooms are edible, but some only once


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OfflineMush4Brains
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: iaskshrumquestions]
    #18886493 - 09/24/13 08:02 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You don't soak the grains and then fill the jars with water and PC them.  You either soak and simmer/boil or don't soak and just PC with water in it.  I really don't see any benefit of using bleach, but I couldn't say for sure if it would harm germination.


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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: iaskshrumquestions]
    #18886533 - 09/24/13 08:12 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

But then how is this different from soaking the grains for a day to release endospores, rinsing thoroughly, and PC'ing them for ~1 to 1.5 hours with added fresh water in the jar?




At least read the TEKs... Then you would know it's about re-hydration. After a 24 hour soak the grains won't be as hydrated as they would with a 24 hour soak + the boil. Rinse before you soak too. Then after the boil the hot grains will evaporate off the excess moisture so they'll be perfectly ready to be PC for 90M and end up perfect. If you don't believe in tried and true methods go ahead but it seems to me like getting your first car and trying to put something other gas in it because you didn't like the instructions you saw on the pump.

Quote:

2 PCs and a bleach rub with sterile conditions isn't cutting corners... I had used bleach because I've read that the strains seem surprisingly resistant to it.  I'm assuming that isn't so at a spore level, but more so at a mycelial level. That's my theory at least




2pc cycles is something no successful grower has done ever and I don't even have bleach at the house because you don't need it for mycology. Doing things the right way is all you need to do. Trying to make up for poor technique with bleach is most definitely cutting a corner. But heh you don't think it is continue on and good luck with those harvests.


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OfflineMADPANTSDOME
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18886565 - 09/24/13 08:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Did you let your grain ferment? It would get really smelly. although I think I did once and it worked fine. I might also go with dead spores or chemical killing it like bleach :wink:


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OfflineBL00MERS
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: iaskshrumquestions]
    #18886800 - 09/24/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I have been using rye grain for a few years and have a pretty standard prep that has given me successful colonization with contamination rates below 3%, and no contaminations in the past year and a half. I currently have 24 qt jars of grain all colonizing nicely with no signs of contamination or halting growth. I have a few questions about your prep, then I will follow up with my prep. I haven't written a tek due in part to having combined a few popular teks that have already been published by some trusted mycologists.

Quote:

iaskshrumquestions said:
Grain prep:

1 Cup Grain : 1 Cup Water in Pint jar

Let it soak for 24-48 hours with the occasional stir. Once Water was frothy, and orange, I dumped out the grains in a strainer and ran the bath faucet over them for a minute or two while tumbling.

PC'd once but had to let them sit for a day in the pot due to work schedule. They looked fairly moist in the jar and had been sitting in a tepid climate for ~24 hours so they were cooked again with my next batch.

Jars most likely had bleach ("all natural cleaner that's not bleach but actually is") residue on the inside of the jars as I wiped them down with quite a bit of it (had a large contamination last time around)

When they came out they actually looked fine once I gave it a thud to check for clumps. As for shaking, I just assumed that, since it was grain, it might be beneficial to give it a tumble in order to coat every thing.




- One cup of grain in a pint jar? (I only ask because I use a cup of grain per quart jar)
- What is your lid setup for these jars...specifically for gas exchange?

Like everybody says..."what works for me may not necessarily work for you."

After determining how many qt jars I am going to sterilize, usually 7-10, I measure out a cup of rye grain for each qt jar. I use organic rye grain to avoid any unnecessary pesticides or chemicals. I'm sure non-organic is fine also.

I put this into a bucket large enough to submerge the grain with a few inches of water over it. I use a standard five gallon bucket and put at least 6 inches of water over the grain. I wash 4-5 times before I start the soak to ensure I remove as much dust and starch as possible. Until the water runs mostly clear instead of yellow/brown. I put the lid on loosely and note the time. I soak for 18-24 hrs and have found it better if I have to, to use before it has soaked for 18 hrs then to use it after it has soaked for 24 hrs.

I rinse the grain again in the same fashion...4-5 times until water runs clear. I put room temperature water in a pot with the grain covered by an inch or two and bring it to a boil on medium heat. The grain is fully hydrated, but the boil helps to get the grain hot enough to steam off the excess water on the exterior of the grain. When I have a large amount I use my pressure cooker with the lid off. I boil for 10 minutes, checking every minute with a quick stir. I've had the grain boil the full ten minutes with no grain bursting, and I've had grain burst around the 6 minute mark. If you see grain bursting prior to the 10 minute mark take it off the burner. Burst grain is excess moisture in your jar that you don't want.

Drain the grain in the sink using a strainer, letting sit for 20-25 minutes, stirring every 5 minutes or so to help speed up the process. When I pour the grain into the strainer I do it in short "bursts"...this is to say I want to minimize the steam i create coming up from the sink so I don't bring up any unnecessary contaminants from the drain and the pipes that come up with the steam hitting the bottom of the strainer. When I am doing a large amount of grain I spread it out on cookie sheets and pans lined with paper towels to help speed up the process. Test for dryness by placing a small amount of grain on a paper towel or piece of toilet paper and remove after 15 seconds. If there are moisture spots on the paper then it is not fully dry.

Once dry, load the jars 3/4 full (2/3 full if doing G2G transfer). Prior to loading, I wipe my jars with isopropyl alcohol and let air dry. Once loaded, I wipe the top interior of the jar...similar to that done in the pf tek before the dry vermiculite is added. I use metal lids with a self healing injector port and whatman filter that are RTV'ed in place. I have not used gypsum yet, but look to in the near future. Cover the jars with a double layer of foil and PC for 90 minutes at 15PSI. Let jars cool overnight. Wipe with isopropyl alcohol before inoculating. That's all I do and have had very good success.

If you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to ask/pm me.
Happy growing!


--------------------
Happy growing!


Edited by BL00MERS (09/25/13 04:27 PM)


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Offlineiaskshrumquestions
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18887068 - 09/24/13 10:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

There are over 10 years worth of posts on this forum. In that decade, "Tried and true" has been thrown out the window on a regular basis. So you'll have to excuse me if I'm critical of processes in lieu of vapid head nodding to old canon.


--------------------
All mushrooms are edible, but some only once


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OfflineBL00MERS
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: iaskshrumquestions]
    #18887173 - 09/24/13 10:50 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Yea, stick with the 2x PC method...good luck with your growing.


--------------------
Happy growing!


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? *DELETED* [Re: BL00MERS]
    #18888708 - 09/25/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by bodhisatta

Reason for deletion: double post



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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18888711 - 09/25/13 10:49 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

:whathesaid:


Quote:

iaskshrumquestions said:
There are over 10 years worth of posts on this forum. In that decade, "Tried and true" has been thrown out the window on a regular basis. So you'll have to excuse me if I'm critical of processes in lieu of vapid head nodding to old canon.



And you're the one asking us for help... obviously you haven't read any of it either...


Can't wait to see your harvest :smbfacepalm:



Edited by Trusted cuItivator (09/25/13 11:02 AM)


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Offlineiaskshrumquestions
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Re: No Growth grain jar -- What do? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #18890590 - 09/25/13 06:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PC'd once but had to let them sit for a day in the pot due to work schedule. They looked fairly moist in the jar and had been sitting in a tepid climate for ~24 hours so they were cooked again with my next batch.




Speaking of reading: I did a double pc on this one particular batch because of the above. But yes, I'll be sure to PM you pictures of my next grow --  for better or worse.


--------------------
All mushrooms are edible, but some only once


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