|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
PrinceShroom
Experienced Mofo



Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 395
Loc: Aiel Waste
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Bilge] 3
#18881617 - 09/23/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
PrinceShroom said: No I read it. Ive used jiffy mix many times before. Ive also used potting soil straight from the bag. Its a really old school method of casing but it is well established.
So basically, you are not going to respond to anything I said to you except one little thing from each post.
This post is not about potting soil in general. And you are adding misinformation to the thread and contradicting yourself. Please stop.
Sorry what didnt I respond too? Misinformation? There is more to growing shrooms than just  You have never read TMC cause if you had you would know thats what stamets recommends as a casing layer. He actually more suggests just dirt from the ground for casing but, potting soil what ever.
Quote:
Bilge said: "Straight potting soil" might need some clarification: when I was working for a greenhouse, our 'straight potting soil' was a combination of peat, vermiculite and perlite.
Id slap you. I mean regular dirt potting soil.
Just about anything will work for a casing. Ive used verm perlite potting soil coir etc. Nutritious or non nutritious it all works.
Functions of the casing layer 1 to protect the colonized substrate from drying out. 2 to provide a humid microclimate for primordia formation and development 3 to provide a water reservoir for the maturing mushrooms 4 to support the growth of fructification enhancing microorganisms
I am sitting here laughing at you with two other TC's on fuckbook. I can get them to post and a few more about me and my misinformation if you would like?
Im sure there is alot of cultivators who have been around longer than you Frank that are nodding there heads to me and my potting soil. Button farmers have used it for 40+ years as a casing. First thing an old school TC said to me was potting soil was the first ever casing material.
--------------------
  WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH Need help? Feel free to me.
Edited by PrinceShroom (09/23/13 06:22 PM)
|
FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18881890 - 09/23/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
You bore me with your rambling about your "friends" 
You said casing layers were non-nutritious, this is not true in the case of the 50/50+ casing layer I am using and writing about. This is the misinformation you posted and I called you out on it.
Sorry you get butthurt over nothing, but you were wrong.
This is not a thread to discuss various casing layers. This is to discuss using jiffy mix as a casing layer, which is what my tek lays out in detail.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/28/13 01:14 PM)
|
FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Hazanko]
#18881897 - 09/23/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Hazanko said: You posted this tek just in time haha. I've ordered Orissa India spores and while there doesn't seem to be a ton of information on them, I've read from a place or two that they can sometimes have a mutated first flush. Hopefully if a casing layer helps PE, it may do the same for OI's?
A casing layer has been shown to reduce mutants from all cube varieties as far as I am aware. I bet it'll work great 
Come back and let me know!
|
cynical bastad
another guy
Registered: 08/17/13
Posts: 175
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18881980 - 09/23/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
|
FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
#18886546 - 09/24/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Whippy said: My speculation based on using casing 100% of the time.
It is all about evaporation control AS MUCH AS creating the proper conditions as the surface. Different additives create a different evaporation amounts. A uniform thickness casing layer should promote more even evaporation. As you said, there are plenty of worthwhile experiments that have yet to be done involving casing.
Mycelium rips through it, but it is non, nutritious. This is part of why it can help. It does not become a solid mass like bulk substrates. It still manages to maintain a high total surface area, which promotes evaporation and pin formation.
These are just hypothesis based on my time using casing layers.
I always use peat and verm at 50% each. I can see how adding sand could accelerate evaporation, much like perlite does in a sgfc. Respected research shows that a casing layer is unnecessary in a perfect environment. However, respected research has yet to show how it hurts to put one on anyway.
I missed this yesterday, sorry whippy! 
Do you case and then let colonize partially or do you case and fruit immediately?
|
FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18902783 - 09/28/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Updated the OP to include pics of when to fruit and a bit more.
|
budkatz

Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 87
Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18909399 - 09/29/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
"When using less, measure out 1.5 - 2 quarts of dry jiffy mix for each quart of hydrated casing material you need."
Does this mean that there is a loss of volume once the jiffy mix is hydrated? I like the idea of using this straight from the bag and pasturizing. This brand is easy to find where I live.
|
FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: budkatz]
#18912304 - 09/30/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, it ends up not being so fluffy when you hydrate it. You'll see what I mean
|
Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18912553 - 09/30/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Excellent write up Frank. And a thread I think folks interested in casing should bookmark for sure.
This is what I have memorized from somewhere, maybe TMC, regarding the function of a casing- so maybe it does not have to be so mysterious....
Casings do this:
1. Protect colonized substrate from drying out. 2. Provide a microclimate favorable for primordia formation. 3. Provide moisture for mushroom growth. 4. Promotes stimulation of pinning by signaling mycellium it is out of nutrition and time to reproduce.
Cubes do not require a casing to fruit at all. But there can definitely be a benefit in certain circumstances.
I do see people use sterilized casing material, but I am an advocate of proper pasteurization, unless I am using Jiffy Mix...then I just dump it outta the bag onto my project, shake around til its even, and mist it down. I don't like the organic because I do have pH issues with it, the non organic seems to be better buffered-could be a local issue. Plus the organic costs a little more.
On a side note however, many edibles require application of a "non sterile" casing. Like your common button mushroom actually requires more more microlife in the casing (all I have ever grown are cubes), as it will not fruit with a sterile casing layer.
Here's my other two cents on casing:
A casing is ready to fruit when mycelium is barely poking out of about 80% of the surface of the casing. The casing layer should not be allowed to become fully colonized. If one area is colonized faster than other areas, simply apply a patch of casing to that area while the rest of the project catches up. This is commonly known as "patching" a casing.
If a casing becomes fully colonized is subject to overlay. Overlay is the condition which results when mycelium has been allowed to completely cover the casing surface. It is caused by prolonged vegetative growth temperatures, high CO2 levels, and excessive humidity. If over watered, the overlay will become matted, or, will form a dense, dead layer of cells on the casing surface.
A casing showing signs of overlay will begin to shrink and pull away from the sides of the container. It will also become unreceptive to water, and puddles may form on the surface after misting. If any pinheads form, they will likely do so at the edges of the casing. Most of the pinheads will abort, and only a few mushrooms will fully mature. Once this has happened, the casing layer really isn't a casing layer anymore. It is no longer serving it's main functions, and has in essence become a second layer of non-nutritious substrate.
-------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
|
Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: budkatz]
#18912572 - 09/30/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
budkatz said: "When using less, measure out 1.5 - 2 quarts of dry jiffy mix for each quart of hydrated casing material you need."
Does this mean that there is a loss of volume once the jiffy mix is hydrated? I like the idea of using this straight from the bag and pasturizing. This brand is easy to find where I live.
I don't even pasteurize Jiffy Mix outta the bag. I dump it outta the bag directly onto the project, then mist it.
-------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
|
budkatz

Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 87
Last seen: 1 day, 7 hours
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Gretchenmeister]
#18913166 - 09/30/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks Frank and Gretchenmeister. I might try the un-pasturized vs pasturized and see how it turns out.
|
FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Gretchenmeister]
#18915723 - 10/01/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: Casings do this:
1. Protect colonized substrate from drying out. 2. Provide a microclimate favorable for primordia formation. 3. Provide moisture for mushroom growth. 4. Promotes stimulation of pinning by signaling mycellium it is out of nutrition and time to reproduce.
Going to the OP, thanks Gretchenmeister! 
Quote:
On a side note however, many edibles require application of a "non sterile" casing. Like your common button mushroom actually requires more more microlife in the casing (all I have ever grown are cubes), as it will not fruit with a sterile casing layer.
Ah, see here is what is mysterious to me 
Does this microlife have benefits on active species?
Regarding the colonization of the casing...
When left to colonize for a few days after the layer is applied, my casing layers on my cubensis substrates have all mostly colonized over the course of the first flush. For me they have not formed overlay and they actually perform quite well for the second flush
My recent experiments can be found in my PE thread linked in the OP. I have another 12 tubs about ready to fruit (happy halloween!) so I can take more detailed notes to share and compare.
However...if I case with a thin layer and then fruit immediately, the casing layer remains mostly untouched by the first harvest. I saw this with my galindoi trays as well as a few tubs of cubes.
I have heard RR say that overlay is not a concern with cubes. Have you seen issues with overlay personally?
Casing layers are (relatively) new territory for me, thank you for sharing your knowledge gretch! Always a pleasure seeing you around.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (10/01/13 12:54 PM)
|
Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18918459 - 10/01/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
ooontz ooontz ooontz.....
Quote:
On a side note however, many edibles require application of a "non sterile" casing. Like your common button mushroom actually requires more more microlife in the casing (all I have ever grown are cubes), as it will not fruit with a sterile casing layer.
Ah, see here is what is mysterious to me 
Does this microlife have benefits on active species?
Truthfully I do not outright know for sure, but I have never heard of any kind of symbiotic benefit for actives, other than the same benefit provided to bulk by proper pasteurization-beneficial microlife allowed to survive that help keep contams at bay. This is debatable for some, because casing technically is "inert/non-nutrious", however I have used sterilized casing and pastuerized casings and I have way better luck with pastuerizing over the years. I think the Jiffy Mix is likely heat treated at some point in the manufacture. I just heard old timers using it, so I did , and it worked great, been hooked ever since.
Regarding the colonization of the casing...
When left to colonize for a few days after the layer is applied, my casing layers on my cubensis substrates have all mostly colonized over the course of the first flush. For me they have not formed overlay and they actually perform quite well for the second flush
This is not uncommon, fully colonized casings are more "at risk" for overlay. However if your casing colonizes you lose the benefits of the casing, because it functions as an extension of the substrate. No hard or fast rules that you have to case between each flush, but hard core casers will reapply or patch the casing after dunking between each flush/harvest.
However...if I case with a thin layer and then fruit immediately, the casing layer remains mostly untouched by the first harvest. I saw this with my galindoi trays as well as a few tubs of cubes.
I have the same experience, but I am mostly doing this on coir subs, after the first "naked" flush. Sometimes coir subs look like hell after the first harvest-which is what led me start late casing. I call it "late casing", but because of the prior exposure, I am always hesitant to cover it back up / re incubate or whatnot. Below a couple pix of probably the same thing you are talking about.
 2nd flush casing-late cased
 4th flush casing-late cased
I have heard RR say that overlay is not a concern with cubes. Have you seen issues with overlay personally?
First, here is an excellent informational on overlay. https://www.shroomery.org/5234/What-is-overlay (cept ignore the part about "scratching")
All well published historical information (that I have read) from reputable mycologist indicate that cubes will fruit in overlay conditions. In my experience, cubes will fruit from overlay in most cases, however it can take longer to see pins(seems like forever). The overall results in this condition are not as great as fruits from otherwise healthy/healthier mycellium in my observations. Additionally, eventually overlay will develop into "stroma", sometimes the terms are interchanged, however, stroma is really a more severe condition, or second phase of overlay...when the plastic like myc later is completely cut off from nutes and moisture, and dies out.
Another side note (lol lots of side notes), fruits from cakes with overlay tend to be more normal and healthy looking fruits. WHEREAS- Fruits from overlaid bulk/casings tend to be way scrawnier, even threadlike and filamentary and very disappointing.
Casing layers are (relatively) new territory for me,
After a person masters bulk subs with cubes, I think its a natural progression to want to case. I think a person has to use their own gut and intuition when determining when deciding when and what to case
I also think reading historical threads on casing is a great place to collect observations. Throughout the course of shroomery history, trends have waxed and waned, and other members documentation in threads like these can be a treasure trove of knowledge.
Im not very good at multiple quote: sorry for the way this reply looks:) .... sending all my love..and goodnite.
Gretch
-------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
|
Windhorse

Registered: 02/13/14
Posts: 19
Loc: East
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
|
Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19644618 - 03/03/14 02:12 PM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Hi Frank, thanks for the idea. I've been to three different stores and only one of them had any seed starter mix at all.
It's different than the bag you had because one of the ingredients is coir pith and there isn't a wetting agent that is listed. I know that isn't ideal, particularly the coir, but do you think it's worth a go? I'm hopeful there is an an inconsequential amount of coir. Or should I toss it and start my search anew? I suppose I could try to find your bag online, but I'd had trouble finding the ingredients listed online.
Here's a picture of the bag: 
Here's the mix: 
Edit: Looking at my picture vs your picture it seems that they really aren't the same. It looks like your mix has a lot more verm. That means there's probably more coir in this than would make it useful for casing.
I found this which appears to be the same bag you have, but it lists wood pulp instead of verm.
Edited by Windhorse (03/03/14 03:09 PM)
|
IMBiff
Learning Sponge

Registered: 01/08/15
Posts: 152
Loc: The Rabbit Hole, Wonderla...
Last seen: 11 months, 7 days
|
Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#21575760 - 04/21/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Hi Frank,
The water you are using to hydrate the mix in the bucket...is it hot, cold, boiling? Does it matter? Thanks for another great write-up! I've followed your 12 steps and everything is working out wonderfully! Thanks again.
Cheers!
-------------------- I am here to be a sponge and to soak up as much wisdom as possible from the all knowing...I am grateful for you.
For noobs like me, click here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21938807
|
PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
|
Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: IMBiff]
#21575784 - 04/21/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Doesn't matter
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
|
uninc4life2010
Unincorporated



Registered: 06/05/10
Posts: 1,124
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
|
Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: PussyFart]
#22026539 - 07/31/15 11:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Frank, when you patch the mycelium poking through the casing layer, are you using casing mix that was pasteurized four days prior, or are you using new casing mix that was pasteurized that same day? Also, do you put the mono into fruiting conditions directly after patching, or let it colonize any further?
|
Wrick90
Stranger

Registered: 07/08/19
Posts: 8
Last seen: 4 years, 4 months
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom]
#26100886 - 07/10/19 06:37 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
What kind of gypsum do you use? Anything specific?
|
munchdubs
Stranger


Registered: 03/26/20
Posts: 5
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#26571157 - 04/01/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
what kind/brand of gypsum did you use? asking because I can only get the dry 12 ounce jiffy mix bags in my area which do not include a wetting agent so I would need to buy that (gypsum) separately correct?
|
circetwo
Stranger
Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 15
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
|
Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Wrick90]
#26695502 - 05/25/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
BUMP
I've been curious about this myself. I'm still learning, and finding lots of almost information--threads that have a smidgen of info, and not enough to actually explain the whole thing. I know I tend to overthink, but I'm not that great at it on my own.
|
|