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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) 14
#18880716 - 09/23/13 01:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've been meaning to post this for a while but had no pictures. Now with a half-dozen PE tubs on the way, I have plenty of time for showing how I case a tub.
Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: Casings do this:
1. Protect colonized substrate from drying out. 2. Provide a microclimate favorable for primordia formation. 3. Provide moisture for mushroom growth. 4. Promotes stimulation of pinning by signaling mycellium it is out of nutrition and time to reproduce.
Let's get this out of the way first...
This is about how to make and apply a casing layer. This casing layer can be used for most species but I will be discussing cubes in this thread. I don't want this thread to become a debate about whether or not cubensis benefits from a casing layer. Please stay on topic.

Now let's get started!
There are a lot of different types of casing layers, this is about 50/50+
This is roughly 50% peat moss, 50% verm, a little lime and a little gypsum.
For a great tek on how to make your 50/50+ casing layer from raw materials, look no further than RR's video on the topic.
This is a lazy-man's casing layer. I use organic jiffy mix seed starter, straight from the bag.

There are many different kinds of this seed starter and they are pretty poorly marked most of the time.
Make sure to check the ingredients. You want it to only include peat moss, vermiculite, lime, and a wetting agent. Grab the organic kind and avoid anything that contains fertilizers, organic or not.
Preparing the casing material
I am using the entire 16 quart bag for this pictorial. This results in about 8-10 quarts of hydrated casing material.
When using less, measure out 1.5 - 2 quarts of dry jiffy mix for each quart of hydrated casing material you need.
Put it in a 5 gallon bucket and remove any large stems or chunks of debris.

Add water slowly until you reach your desired consistency. Remember to prep it on the dry side of field capacity- it will get muddy if it's too wet. As you add water, you will need to squeeze and "massage" the casing material. It will soak up the water very quickly with minimal work.
If you add too much water, just add some more verm to soak it up.
With my bags of jiffy mix, 4 quarts dry will be at field capacity with 1 quart of water. You will need to find your "sweet spot" as well, it varies from bag to bag and region to region.
Once hydrated to your liking, throw a bit of gypsum in. I use a small handful or two for every 16 quarts of dry jiffy mix. Mix it up again and check for field capacity one more time.

Load a bag or jars and pasteurize on the stove, following this link if you need instructions. 60-90min at 140-160F.
Let it cool overnight.
Here it is, ready to go.

Casing methods
First, figure out when you want to case the tub.
You can also apply a thin casing later (1/4"-1/2") and fruit the tub immediately.
Personally I prefer to apply a 1/2" casing layer to my PE tubs at 100% colonization, then let them colonize for 3-7 days. When the mycelium is poking through about 20% of the casing layer, I fruit the tub.
Some people have good luck with a "late casing" that is applied very thin (1/4") after pinning has begun.
How to apply the casing layer

Open the tub and start pouring your pasteurized casing material over the top. Gently spread it around, breaking it up so there are no big chunks.

Be gentle- try to disturb the substrate itself as little as possible.
Make it as deep as you feel you need to and even it out as best you can. Do not compress it, leave it fluffy.

Now either fruit it or return it to colonizing conditions until 20%.
Here is the casing layer above after 2 days:

And here it is after 4 days, ready to be fruited:

Notice how there is a lot of mycelium poking through along the edges of the casing?
I like to patch that with an additional, very thin (1/4") layer of casing material. I find that I get a more even pinset this way. If I leave it be, the edges tend to get a lot of pins first.

And here it is fruiting.

It has been my experience with cubes that a 50/50+ casing layer will be almost colonized (unless you late-cased) after the first flush. I don't re-case my cubes after harvest either.
Here are some penis envy tubs done with this casing layer, coir/verm with a 1/2" 50/50+. These are "limited" multispore, first flushes:

Here are p. galindoi fruits in a mini-GH with 1/4" of this casing material on top.

Discussion on how PE benefits from a casing layer can be found here.

Edited by FrankHorrigan (11/24/13 12:56 PM)
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PrinceShroom
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18880847 - 09/23/13 02:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nice p. galindoi. How much casing would you say a regular mono requires? 2 quarts?
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom] 1
#18880855 - 09/23/13 02:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Did you see my log? I was keeping track of the progress a few months back.
For a 66qt monotub (pictured), it takes about 2-2.5 quarts of material for a 1/2" casing layer. I have not measured precisely in quite some time, I just take from that bag however much I need
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j3rk0ff
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18880877 - 09/23/13 02:29 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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damn them P.E. look sweet frank
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Pestile

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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18880894 - 09/23/13 02:33 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, those PE's look amazing. I'm always impressed when I see one of your tubs, Frank. How far do you go when creating limited multi spore? Is one transfers enough or are several required?
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PrinceShroom
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan] 2
#18880913 - 09/23/13 02:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:

Did you see my log? I was keeping track of the progress a few months back.
Hmmmm thats making me wish my ATL culture wasn't so old. Id break it out. Maybe ill try to get a print somewhere and try them again. They are such a nice grow.
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Pestile] 2
#18880955 - 09/23/13 02:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've been trying to research more about casings, but it seems like the information I've found seems relatively vague... What is the ACTUAL benefit of a casing layer... I understand it's supposed to increase yields/etc, but I'm curious to know as to how it directly affects growth. I'm assuming a casing layer has to be of a different material than your actual substrate, but does that mean there is only specific materials that make good casing layers?
I've read that a casing layer helps provide a deposit of moisture to help with the growth of the mushrooms, so that does that mean you want a casing material that holds more water at field capacity than what your substrate does? Does a casing serve any nutritional benefit in addition to your substrate? I would think that if your monotube or FC was made properly, you wouldn't have issues with keep proper humidity, which is what a casing layer is supposed to help with? I was sort of thinking that possibly a casing layer helps promote additional pin growth due to the mycelium reaching a different texture than the subtrate?
Hopefully you could help better explain more ''how'' the casing layer functions instead of ''what'' a casing layer supposedly does. I feel like being able to better understand the workings behind things, helps with the construction of better techniques(at least for me)
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Edited by Hazanko (09/23/13 03:02 PM)
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PrinceShroom
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Hazanko] 1
#18880971 - 09/23/13 03:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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A casing creates a beneficial micro climate to induce pinning. Some species require a casing, cubes do not. There is no real benefit to casing cubes. No increase in yield. Its an extra unnecessary step.
A casing has to be made up of non nutritious material so that the mycellium cannot fully colonize it.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Hazanko] 1
#18880992 - 09/23/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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First and foremost it provides 99% humidity at the surface of your substrate, allowing for much more FAE without worrying so much about the fruiting chamber's RH dipping a bit.
But there is a lot about it I don't understand and if anyone else does, I have not seen it nor have they stepped forward.
I can say that a proper casing layer is more than just a humidity tent.
If all it did was provide humidity at the surface of the substrate, you might be able to get similar results by using verm or wax paper.
However, some species will not fruit without a proper casing layer such as 50/50+. Why is this? I don't know.
But when it comes to species that require a casing layer, nothing else will get them to fruit. Some need specific additives in their casing layers, like sand.
Casing layers are mysterious things. They are more than worthwhile to experiment with in your own time.
Quote:
PrinceShroom said: A casing has to be made up of non nutritious material so that the mycellium cannot fully colonize it.
Verm is nutritious to fungus, it has been discussed and proven again and again. RR recently reiterated this.
Casing layers are semi-nutritious. And as such they will fully colonize, as seen on my PE tubs pictured.
Quote:
PrinceShroom said: A casing creates a beneficial micro climate to induce pinning. Some species require a casing, cubes do not. There is no real benefit to casing cubes. No increase in yield. Its an extra unnecessary step.
My casing layer on my PE tubs drastically increases the yield vs a blob first flush.
No more discussion on the benefit or lack of for cubes please. Not on this thread, thank you.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/23/13 03:16 PM)
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Oeric McKenna
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom] 1
#18880997 - 09/23/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your penis gave ME a serious boner.... Holy crap
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Oeric McKenna] 1
#18881007 - 09/23/13 03:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks Oeric! Nice to see you around!
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PrinceShroom
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Oeric McKenna] 1
#18881016 - 09/23/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea and coir is nutritious also. Potting soil is not. All and any mix of these can be used. I really dont think it matters whether it is or isnt
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom] 1
#18881023 - 09/23/13 03:19 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't follow.
Nowhere in my write up do I say "use any potting soil you like."
A 50/50+ casing mix is what this tek is about. Did you read the whole OP? I clearly state the contents of the jiffy mix I use is 50% peat and 50% verm.
I'm beginning to think you did not read the OP.
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Hazanko
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18881029 - 09/23/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not sure if you've tried anything like this, but I was reading this and found it interesting. Anyone have any takes on this ''stirring'' method?
https://mycotopia.net/forums/holding-tank/99304-uncle-gs-casing-canopy-tek.html
I can't wait to start experimenting on my own. Going off topic slightly, I'm curious to know what causes a pin to form where it decides to form, if it's at all possible to force pinning in a location. If it's possible to control where a pin appears, you could assume that you'd then be able to force a lot of condensed pinning thus increasing yields. It's kind of weird seeing pictures of some people that have like 1 HUGE shroom growing out of a cake in a weird place and nothing else, then other people with cakes that have fruiting in every direction and location.
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PrinceShroom
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan] 2
#18881032 - 09/23/13 03:21 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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No I read it. Ive used jiffy mix many times before. Ive also used potting soil straight from the bag. Its a really old school method of casing but it is well established.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom] 1
#18881040 - 09/23/13 03:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hazanko said: https://mycotopia.net/forums/holding-tank/99304-uncle-gs-casing-canopy-tek.html
You should disregard any tek and any member who recommends "scraping" or "scratching" the surface of the mycelium. This is bullshit misinformation that was disproven years ago.
Quote:
PrinceShroom said: No I read it. Ive used jiffy mix many times before. Ive also used potting soil straight from the bag. Its a really old school method of casing but it is well established.
So basically, you are not going to respond to anything I said to you except one little thing from each post.
This post is not about potting soil in general. And you are adding misinformation to the thread and contradicting yourself. Please stop.
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Hazanko
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Hazanko] 1
#18881066 - 09/23/13 03:31 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You posted this tek just in time haha. I've ordered Orissa India spores and while there doesn't seem to be a ton of information on them, I've read from a place or two that they can sometimes have a mutated first flush. Hopefully if a casing layer helps PE, it may do the same for OI's?
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maddchef
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Hazanko] 1
#18881125 - 09/23/13 03:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't get how that is misinformation. Straight potting soil does indeed work as a primitive casing layer, so will straight peat moss, so does straight verm.
Although "jiffy mix" is the preferred "out of the bag" casing.
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Bilge
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: maddchef] 1
#18881185 - 09/23/13 04:03 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Straight potting soil" might need some clarification: when I was working for a greenhouse, our 'straight potting soil' was a combination of peat, vermiculite and perlite.
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HypnotoadCroaked
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan] 1
#18881338 - 09/23/13 04:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: First and foremost it provides 99% humidity at the surface of your substrate, allowing for much more FAE without worrying so much about the fruiting chamber's RH dipping a bit.
But there is a lot about it I don't understand and if anyone else does, I have not seen it nor have they stepped forward.
I can say that a proper casing layer is more than just a humidity tent.
If all it did was provide humidity at the surface of the substrate, you might be able to get similar results by using verm or wax paper.
However, some species will not fruit without a proper casing layer such as 50/50+. Why is this? I don't know.
But when it comes to species that require a casing layer, nothing else will get them to fruit. Some need specific additives in their casing layers, like sand.
Casing layers are mysterious things. They are more than worthwhile to experiment with in your own time.
My speculation based on using casing 100% of the time.
It is all about evaporation control AS MUCH AS creating the proper conditions as the surface. Different additives create a different evaporation amounts. A uniform thickness casing layer should promote more even evaporation. As you said, there are plenty of worthwhile experiments that have yet to be done involving casing.
Mycelium rips through it, but it is non, nutritious. This is part of why it can help. It does not become a solid mass like bulk substrates. It still manages to maintain a high total surface area, which promotes evaporation and pin formation.
These are just hypothesis based on my time using casing layers.
I always use peat and verm at 50% each. I can see how adding sand could accelerate evaporation, much like perlite does in a sgfc. Respected research shows that a casing layer is unnecessary in a perfect environment. However, respected research has yet to show how it hurts to put one on anyway.
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PrinceShroom
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Bilge] 3
#18881617 - 09/23/13 06:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said:
Quote:
PrinceShroom said: No I read it. Ive used jiffy mix many times before. Ive also used potting soil straight from the bag. Its a really old school method of casing but it is well established.
So basically, you are not going to respond to anything I said to you except one little thing from each post.
This post is not about potting soil in general. And you are adding misinformation to the thread and contradicting yourself. Please stop.
Sorry what didnt I respond too? Misinformation? There is more to growing shrooms than just  You have never read TMC cause if you had you would know thats what stamets recommends as a casing layer. He actually more suggests just dirt from the ground for casing but, potting soil what ever.
Quote:
Bilge said: "Straight potting soil" might need some clarification: when I was working for a greenhouse, our 'straight potting soil' was a combination of peat, vermiculite and perlite.
Id slap you. I mean regular dirt potting soil.
Just about anything will work for a casing. Ive used verm perlite potting soil coir etc. Nutritious or non nutritious it all works.
Functions of the casing layer 1 to protect the colonized substrate from drying out. 2 to provide a humid microclimate for primordia formation and development 3 to provide a water reservoir for the maturing mushrooms 4 to support the growth of fructification enhancing microorganisms
I am sitting here laughing at you with two other TC's on fuckbook. I can get them to post and a few more about me and my misinformation if you would like?
Im sure there is alot of cultivators who have been around longer than you Frank that are nodding there heads to me and my potting soil. Button farmers have used it for 40+ years as a casing. First thing an old school TC said to me was potting soil was the first ever casing material.
--------------------
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Edited by PrinceShroom (09/23/13 06:22 PM)
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom]
#18881890 - 09/23/13 07:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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You bore me with your rambling about your "friends" 
You said casing layers were non-nutritious, this is not true in the case of the 50/50+ casing layer I am using and writing about. This is the misinformation you posted and I called you out on it.
Sorry you get butthurt over nothing, but you were wrong.
This is not a thread to discuss various casing layers. This is to discuss using jiffy mix as a casing layer, which is what my tek lays out in detail.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/28/13 01:14 PM)
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Hazanko]
#18881897 - 09/23/13 07:24 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hazanko said: You posted this tek just in time haha. I've ordered Orissa India spores and while there doesn't seem to be a ton of information on them, I've read from a place or two that they can sometimes have a mutated first flush. Hopefully if a casing layer helps PE, it may do the same for OI's?
A casing layer has been shown to reduce mutants from all cube varieties as far as I am aware. I bet it'll work great 
Come back and let me know!
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cynical bastad
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18881980 - 09/23/13 07:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: HypnotoadCroaked]
#18886546 - 09/24/13 08:15 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Whippy said: My speculation based on using casing 100% of the time.
It is all about evaporation control AS MUCH AS creating the proper conditions as the surface. Different additives create a different evaporation amounts. A uniform thickness casing layer should promote more even evaporation. As you said, there are plenty of worthwhile experiments that have yet to be done involving casing.
Mycelium rips through it, but it is non, nutritious. This is part of why it can help. It does not become a solid mass like bulk substrates. It still manages to maintain a high total surface area, which promotes evaporation and pin formation.
These are just hypothesis based on my time using casing layers.
I always use peat and verm at 50% each. I can see how adding sand could accelerate evaporation, much like perlite does in a sgfc. Respected research shows that a casing layer is unnecessary in a perfect environment. However, respected research has yet to show how it hurts to put one on anyway.
I missed this yesterday, sorry whippy! 
Do you case and then let colonize partially or do you case and fruit immediately?
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FrankHorrigan
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18902783 - 09/28/13 01:09 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Updated the OP to include pics of when to fruit and a bit more.
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budkatz

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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18909399 - 09/29/13 11:04 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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"When using less, measure out 1.5 - 2 quarts of dry jiffy mix for each quart of hydrated casing material you need."
Does this mean that there is a loss of volume once the jiffy mix is hydrated? I like the idea of using this straight from the bag and pasturizing. This brand is easy to find where I live.
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FrankHorrigan
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: budkatz]
#18912304 - 09/30/13 05:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, it ends up not being so fluffy when you hydrate it. You'll see what I mean
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Gretchenmeister
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18912553 - 09/30/13 06:43 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Excellent write up Frank. And a thread I think folks interested in casing should bookmark for sure.
This is what I have memorized from somewhere, maybe TMC, regarding the function of a casing- so maybe it does not have to be so mysterious....
Casings do this:
1. Protect colonized substrate from drying out. 2. Provide a microclimate favorable for primordia formation. 3. Provide moisture for mushroom growth. 4. Promotes stimulation of pinning by signaling mycellium it is out of nutrition and time to reproduce.
Cubes do not require a casing to fruit at all. But there can definitely be a benefit in certain circumstances.
I do see people use sterilized casing material, but I am an advocate of proper pasteurization, unless I am using Jiffy Mix...then I just dump it outta the bag onto my project, shake around til its even, and mist it down. I don't like the organic because I do have pH issues with it, the non organic seems to be better buffered-could be a local issue. Plus the organic costs a little more.
On a side note however, many edibles require application of a "non sterile" casing. Like your common button mushroom actually requires more more microlife in the casing (all I have ever grown are cubes), as it will not fruit with a sterile casing layer.
Here's my other two cents on casing:
A casing is ready to fruit when mycelium is barely poking out of about 80% of the surface of the casing. The casing layer should not be allowed to become fully colonized. If one area is colonized faster than other areas, simply apply a patch of casing to that area while the rest of the project catches up. This is commonly known as "patching" a casing.
If a casing becomes fully colonized is subject to overlay. Overlay is the condition which results when mycelium has been allowed to completely cover the casing surface. It is caused by prolonged vegetative growth temperatures, high CO2 levels, and excessive humidity. If over watered, the overlay will become matted, or, will form a dense, dead layer of cells on the casing surface.
A casing showing signs of overlay will begin to shrink and pull away from the sides of the container. It will also become unreceptive to water, and puddles may form on the surface after misting. If any pinheads form, they will likely do so at the edges of the casing. Most of the pinheads will abort, and only a few mushrooms will fully mature. Once this has happened, the casing layer really isn't a casing layer anymore. It is no longer serving it's main functions, and has in essence become a second layer of non-nutritious substrate.
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Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: budkatz]
#18912572 - 09/30/13 06:47 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
budkatz said: "When using less, measure out 1.5 - 2 quarts of dry jiffy mix for each quart of hydrated casing material you need."
Does this mean that there is a loss of volume once the jiffy mix is hydrated? I like the idea of using this straight from the bag and pasturizing. This brand is easy to find where I live.
I don't even pasteurize Jiffy Mix outta the bag. I dump it outta the bag directly onto the project, then mist it.
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budkatz

Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 87
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Gretchenmeister]
#18913166 - 09/30/13 08:59 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks Frank and Gretchenmeister. I might try the un-pasturized vs pasturized and see how it turns out.
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FrankHorrigan
The Inquisition



Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Gretchenmeister]
#18915723 - 10/01/13 11:30 AM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: Casings do this:
1. Protect colonized substrate from drying out. 2. Provide a microclimate favorable for primordia formation. 3. Provide moisture for mushroom growth. 4. Promotes stimulation of pinning by signaling mycellium it is out of nutrition and time to reproduce.
Going to the OP, thanks Gretchenmeister! 
Quote:
On a side note however, many edibles require application of a "non sterile" casing. Like your common button mushroom actually requires more more microlife in the casing (all I have ever grown are cubes), as it will not fruit with a sterile casing layer.
Ah, see here is what is mysterious to me 
Does this microlife have benefits on active species?
Regarding the colonization of the casing...
When left to colonize for a few days after the layer is applied, my casing layers on my cubensis substrates have all mostly colonized over the course of the first flush. For me they have not formed overlay and they actually perform quite well for the second flush
My recent experiments can be found in my PE thread linked in the OP. I have another 12 tubs about ready to fruit (happy halloween!) so I can take more detailed notes to share and compare.
However...if I case with a thin layer and then fruit immediately, the casing layer remains mostly untouched by the first harvest. I saw this with my galindoi trays as well as a few tubs of cubes.
I have heard RR say that overlay is not a concern with cubes. Have you seen issues with overlay personally?
Casing layers are (relatively) new territory for me, thank you for sharing your knowledge gretch! Always a pleasure seeing you around.
Edited by FrankHorrigan (10/01/13 12:54 PM)
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Gretchenmeister
Starbeing/Psilocybin Savant



Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1,032
Loc: From the Stars
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#18918459 - 10/01/13 09:34 PM (10 years, 4 months ago) |
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ooontz ooontz ooontz.....
Quote:
On a side note however, many edibles require application of a "non sterile" casing. Like your common button mushroom actually requires more more microlife in the casing (all I have ever grown are cubes), as it will not fruit with a sterile casing layer.
Ah, see here is what is mysterious to me 
Does this microlife have benefits on active species?
Truthfully I do not outright know for sure, but I have never heard of any kind of symbiotic benefit for actives, other than the same benefit provided to bulk by proper pasteurization-beneficial microlife allowed to survive that help keep contams at bay. This is debatable for some, because casing technically is "inert/non-nutrious", however I have used sterilized casing and pastuerized casings and I have way better luck with pastuerizing over the years. I think the Jiffy Mix is likely heat treated at some point in the manufacture. I just heard old timers using it, so I did , and it worked great, been hooked ever since.
Regarding the colonization of the casing...
When left to colonize for a few days after the layer is applied, my casing layers on my cubensis substrates have all mostly colonized over the course of the first flush. For me they have not formed overlay and they actually perform quite well for the second flush
This is not uncommon, fully colonized casings are more "at risk" for overlay. However if your casing colonizes you lose the benefits of the casing, because it functions as an extension of the substrate. No hard or fast rules that you have to case between each flush, but hard core casers will reapply or patch the casing after dunking between each flush/harvest.
However...if I case with a thin layer and then fruit immediately, the casing layer remains mostly untouched by the first harvest. I saw this with my galindoi trays as well as a few tubs of cubes.
I have the same experience, but I am mostly doing this on coir subs, after the first "naked" flush. Sometimes coir subs look like hell after the first harvest-which is what led me start late casing. I call it "late casing", but because of the prior exposure, I am always hesitant to cover it back up / re incubate or whatnot. Below a couple pix of probably the same thing you are talking about.
 2nd flush casing-late cased
 4th flush casing-late cased
I have heard RR say that overlay is not a concern with cubes. Have you seen issues with overlay personally?
First, here is an excellent informational on overlay. https://www.shroomery.org/5234/What-is-overlay (cept ignore the part about "scratching")
All well published historical information (that I have read) from reputable mycologist indicate that cubes will fruit in overlay conditions. In my experience, cubes will fruit from overlay in most cases, however it can take longer to see pins(seems like forever). The overall results in this condition are not as great as fruits from otherwise healthy/healthier mycellium in my observations. Additionally, eventually overlay will develop into "stroma", sometimes the terms are interchanged, however, stroma is really a more severe condition, or second phase of overlay...when the plastic like myc later is completely cut off from nutes and moisture, and dies out.
Another side note (lol lots of side notes), fruits from cakes with overlay tend to be more normal and healthy looking fruits. WHEREAS- Fruits from overlaid bulk/casings tend to be way scrawnier, even threadlike and filamentary and very disappointing.
Casing layers are (relatively) new territory for me,
After a person masters bulk subs with cubes, I think its a natural progression to want to case. I think a person has to use their own gut and intuition when determining when deciding when and what to case
I also think reading historical threads on casing is a great place to collect observations. Throughout the course of shroomery history, trends have waxed and waned, and other members documentation in threads like these can be a treasure trove of knowledge.
Im not very good at multiple quote: sorry for the way this reply looks:) .... sending all my love..and goodnite.
Gretch
-------------------- What's wrong with folks? Point your IRC client to irc.socialirc.com, port 6667, #cultivation and #shroomery for live chat with like minded hobbyists and connoisseurs. Mush Porn
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Windhorse

Registered: 02/13/14
Posts: 19
Loc: East
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#19644618 - 03/03/14 02:12 PM (9 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hi Frank, thanks for the idea. I've been to three different stores and only one of them had any seed starter mix at all.
It's different than the bag you had because one of the ingredients is coir pith and there isn't a wetting agent that is listed. I know that isn't ideal, particularly the coir, but do you think it's worth a go? I'm hopeful there is an an inconsequential amount of coir. Or should I toss it and start my search anew? I suppose I could try to find your bag online, but I'd had trouble finding the ingredients listed online.
Here's a picture of the bag: 
Here's the mix: 
Edit: Looking at my picture vs your picture it seems that they really aren't the same. It looks like your mix has a lot more verm. That means there's probably more coir in this than would make it useful for casing.
I found this which appears to be the same bag you have, but it lists wood pulp instead of verm.
Edited by Windhorse (03/03/14 03:09 PM)
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IMBiff
Learning Sponge

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Loc: The Rabbit Hole, Wonderla...
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#21575760 - 04/21/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hi Frank,
The water you are using to hydrate the mix in the bucket...is it hot, cold, boiling? Does it matter? Thanks for another great write-up! I've followed your 12 steps and everything is working out wonderfully! Thanks again.
Cheers!
-------------------- I am here to be a sponge and to soak up as much wisdom as possible from the all knowing...I am grateful for you.
For noobs like me, click here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21938807
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Posts: 22,502
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: IMBiff]
#21575784 - 04/21/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 9 months ago) |
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Doesn't matter
--------------------
THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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uninc4life2010
Unincorporated



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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: PussyFart]
#22026539 - 07/31/15 11:09 PM (8 years, 6 months ago) |
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Frank, when you patch the mycelium poking through the casing layer, are you using casing mix that was pasteurized four days prior, or are you using new casing mix that was pasteurized that same day? Also, do you put the mono into fruiting conditions directly after patching, or let it colonize any further?
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Wrick90
Stranger

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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: PrinceShroom]
#26100886 - 07/10/19 06:37 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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What kind of gypsum do you use? Anything specific?
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munchdubs
Stranger


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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#26571157 - 04/01/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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what kind/brand of gypsum did you use? asking because I can only get the dry 12 ounce jiffy mix bags in my area which do not include a wetting agent so I would need to buy that (gypsum) separately correct?
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circetwo
Stranger
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Wrick90]
#26695502 - 05/25/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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BUMP
I've been curious about this myself. I'm still learning, and finding lots of almost information--threads that have a smidgen of info, and not enough to actually explain the whole thing. I know I tend to overthink, but I'm not that great at it on my own.
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Murama16
Stranger
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: circetwo]
#26740143 - 06/12/20 05:30 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is gypsum absolutely necessary for casing layer? I got Jiffy bag mix with coco coir, vermiculite and peat moss, and I have some hydrated lime as well.. think I will be ok with no gypsum ( can’t find any.. on a small island)
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Anastomosis
Stranger


Registered: 05/20/20
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Murama16]
#26740220 - 06/12/20 06:11 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yup. You'll be ok.
-------------------- "120mph with a trailer full of dogs and a truck full of drug addicts."
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eatyualive
Eat's You Alive :)



Registered: 08/17/01
Posts: 19,026
Loc: In Your Head
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Anastomosis]
#26740449 - 06/12/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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You dont even need a casing layer with cubes. In a standard monotub, Just do coir/ verm sub and leave 2 quarts of the mix to top layer at spawning. Outdated info.
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ouuwee
Garden of Weeden


Registered: 03/22/20
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: eatyualive]
#26740961 - 06/13/20 01:22 AM (3 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
eatyualive said: You dont even need a casing layer with cubes. In a standard monotub, Just do coir/ verm sub and leave 2 quarts of the mix to top layer at spawning. Outdated info.
It's beneficial for PE/APE though right?
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Abby
Stranger
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: ouuwee]
#26948262 - 09/21/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks Frank.
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maxmush
Always learning...

Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 440
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: Murama16]
#26949071 - 09/22/20 10:14 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Murama16 said: Is gypsum absolutely necessary for casing layer? I got Jiffy bag mix with coco coir, vermiculite and peat moss, and I have some hydrated lime as well.. think I will be ok with no gypsum ( can’t find any.. on a small island)
Check your hardware store in the the drywall section for "plaster of paris". This is gypsum
-------------------- Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.
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junk_f00d


Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: maxmush]
#26949191 - 09/22/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
maxmush said:
Quote:
Murama16 said: Is gypsum absolutely necessary for casing layer? I got Jiffy bag mix with coco coir, vermiculite and peat moss, and I have some hydrated lime as well.. think I will be ok with no gypsum ( can’t find any.. on a small island)
Check your hardware store in the the drywall section for "plaster of paris". This is gypsum
No, it is not. It is dehydrated gypsum, and if you used it like it was gypsum you might end up with a plaster cast. You can hydrate plaster into a cast then crumple it up (it is a total pain and bonds to the container you mixed it in, btw); that is now gypsum, or you can add a relatively small amount to a quantity of water (recommended). IME if you don't add too much, it won't form casts on the bottom of your pan. But if you do, they are so hard to remove.
If you have spare drywall, you can also use that as if it were plaster.
Edited by junk_f00d (09/22/20 11:43 AM)
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junk_f00d


Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: eatyualive]
#26949198 - 09/22/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
eatyualive said: You dont even need a casing layer with cubes. In a standard monotub, Just do coir/ verm sub and leave 2 quarts of the mix to top layer at spawning. Outdated info.
Is there a name for this top layer or idea? I always call it topdressing.
Quote:
ouuwee said: It's beneficial for PE/APE though right?
That is the current majority held belief here, yes. But you can find genetics that do well without a casing.
Edited by junk_f00d (09/22/20 11:47 AM)
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maxmush
Always learning...

Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 440
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Re: How Frank makes casing layers with jiffy mix [Re: junk_f00d]
#26950752 - 09/23/20 09:23 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
junk_f00d said:
Quote:
maxmush said:
Quote:
Murama16 said: Is gypsum absolutely necessary for casing layer? I got Jiffy bag mix with coco coir, vermiculite and peat moss, and I have some hydrated lime as well.. think I will be ok with no gypsum ( can’t find any.. on a small island)
Check your hardware store in the the drywall section for "plaster of paris". This is gypsum
No, it is not. It is dehydrated gypsum, and if you used it like it was gypsum you might end up with a plaster cast. You can hydrate plaster into a cast then crumple it up (it is a total pain and bonds to the container you mixed it in, btw); that is now gypsum, or you can add a relatively small amount to a quantity of water (recommended). IME if you don't add too much, it won't form casts on the bottom of your pan. But if you do, they are so hard to remove.
If you have spare drywall, you can also use that as if it were plaster.
Incorrect. Plaster of Paris IS gypsum. Hydrating and then drying it, and then crumbling it is the SAME thing. It is still calcium sulfate dihydrate. I have never had issues using it ever.
-------------------- Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.
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MushBrain1
Poppin Fresh Pillsbury Doughboy


Registered: 07/05/21
Posts: 132
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#27433559 - 08/18/21 07:41 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FrankHorrigan said: I've been meaning to post this for a while but had no pictures. Now with a half-dozen PE tubs on the way, I have plenty of time for showing how I case a tub.
Quote:
Gretchenmeister said: Casings do this:
1. Protect colonized substrate from drying out. 2. Provide a microclimate favorable for primordia formation. 3. Provide moisture for mushroom growth. 4. Promotes stimulation of pinning by signaling mycellium it is out of nutrition and time to reproduce.
Let's get this out of the way first...
This is about how to make and apply a casing layer. This casing layer can be used for most species but I will be discussing cubes in this thread. I don't want this thread to become a debate about whether or not cubensis benefits from a casing layer. Please stay on topic.

Now let's get started!
There are a lot of different types of casing layers, this is about 50/50+
This is roughly 50% peat moss, 50% verm, a little lime and a little gypsum.
For a great tek on how to make your 50/50+ casing layer from raw materials, look no further than RR's video on the topic.
This is a lazy-man's casing layer. I use organic jiffy mix seed starter, straight from the bag.

There are many different kinds of this seed starter and they are pretty poorly marked most of the time.
Make sure to check the ingredients. You want it to only include peat moss, vermiculite, lime, and a wetting agent. Grab the organic kind and avoid anything that contains fertilizers, organic or not.
Preparing the casing material
I am using the entire 16 quart bag for this pictorial. This results in about 8-10 quarts of hydrated casing material.
When using less, measure out 1.5 - 2 quarts of dry jiffy mix for each quart of hydrated casing material you need.
Put it in a 5 gallon bucket and remove any large stems or chunks of debris.

Add water slowly until you reach your desired consistency. Remember to prep it on the dry side of field capacity- it will get muddy if it's too wet. As you add water, you will need to squeeze and "massage" the casing material. It will soak up the water very quickly with minimal work.
If you add too much water, just add some more verm to soak it up.
With my bags of jiffy mix, 4 quarts dry will be at field capacity with 1 quart of water. You will need to find your "sweet spot" as well, it varies from bag to bag and region to region.
Once hydrated to your liking, throw a bit of gypsum in. I use a small handful or two for every 16 quarts of dry jiffy mix. Mix it up again and check for field capacity one more time.

Load a bag or jars and pasteurize on the stove, following this link if you need instructions. 60-90min at 140-160F.
Let it cool overnight.
Here it is, ready to go.

Casing methods
First, figure out when you want to case the tub.
You can also apply a thin casing later (1/4"-1/2") and fruit the tub immediately.
Personally I prefer to apply a 1/2" casing layer to my PE tubs at 100% colonization, then let them colonize for 3-7 days. When the mycelium is poking through about 20% of the casing layer, I fruit the tub.
Some people have good luck with a "late casing" that is applied very thin (1/4") after pinning has begun.
How to apply the casing layer

Open the tub and start pouring your pasteurized casing material over the top. Gently spread it around, breaking it up so there are no big chunks.

Be gentle- try to disturb the substrate itself as little as possible.
Make it as deep as you feel you need to and even it out as best you can. Do not compress it, leave it fluffy.

Now either fruit it or return it to colonizing conditions until 20%.
Here is the casing layer above after 2 days:

And here it is after 4 days, ready to be fruited:

Notice how there is a lot of mycelium poking through along the edges of the casing?
I like to patch that with an additional, very thin (1/4") layer of casing material. I find that I get a more even pinset this way. If I leave it be, the edges tend to get a lot of pins first.

And here it is fruiting.

It has been my experience with cubes that a 50/50+ casing layer will be almost colonized (unless you late-cased) after the first flush. I don't re-case my cubes after harvest either.
Here are some penis envy tubs done with this casing layer, coir/verm with a 1/2" 50/50+. These are "limited" multispore, first flushes:

Here are p. galindoi fruits in a mini-GH with 1/4" of this casing material on top.

Discussion on how PE benefits from a casing layer can be found here.

\Hey Frank,
I followed this to a 'T', even casing again around the outside edges, and I got Blobs again! What am I doing wrong? I used pasteurized Jiffy Mix 1/2", then re-cased edges only a thin layer. Please advise Master.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: MushBrain1]
#27433580 - 08/18/21 08:00 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Frank isn't around as far as I know. There's plenty of casing threads that are current.
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junk_f00d


Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27433650 - 08/18/21 08:57 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
maxmush said:
Quote:
junk_f00d said:
Quote:
maxmush said:
Quote:
Murama16 said: Is gypsum absolutely necessary for casing layer? I got Jiffy bag mix with coco coir, vermiculite and peat moss, and I have some hydrated lime as well.. think I will be ok with no gypsum ( can’t find any.. on a small island)
Check your hardware store in the the drywall section for "plaster of paris". This is gypsum
No, it is not. It is dehydrated gypsum, and if you used it like it was gypsum you might end up with a plaster cast. You can hydrate plaster into a cast then crumple it up (it is a total pain and bonds to the container you mixed it in, btw); that is now gypsum, or you can add a relatively small amount to a quantity of water (recommended). IME if you don't add too much, it won't form casts on the bottom of your pan. But if you do, they are so hard to remove.
If you have spare drywall, you can also use that as if it were plaster.
Incorrect. Plaster of Paris IS gypsum. Hydrating and then drying it, and then crumbling it is the SAME thing. It is still calcium sulfate dihydrate. I have never had issues using it ever.
Old comment but no it's not, one is hydrated and one isn't. If you want to test it yourself go ahead. The dehydrated one (plaster) might hydrate and harden on the bottom of your pot. Happened to me and it's a PITA.
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Akamykedee
Stranger
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#28284384 - 04/18/23 07:44 PM (9 months, 24 days ago) |
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Can you store these jars for later?
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johnukguy
Learning



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Posts: 2,423
Loc: Colorado
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: Akamykedee]
#28284506 - 04/18/23 09:10 PM (9 months, 24 days ago) |
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This is an older thread. If by jars you mean whatever you keep your substrate in, then yes, they'll keep for a good while if it's something like straight coir, or coir and verm and the container is sealed. For cubes, the simpler the substrate and casing/pseudo casing the better generally. No need for Jiffy mix, gypsum, or any other additives. I would recommend a more up to date post, with this excellent write up by Stipe-n Cap on casing:
Top Layer/Pseudo-casing by p9
-------------------- How to post pictures to shroomery TEK Shroomery Trusted Cultivator And Member YouTube Channels. “Evey Hammond: Who are you? V: Who? Who is but the form following the function of what and what I am is a man in a mask. Evey Hammond: Well I can see that. V: Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is”
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RP3


Registered: 06/10/23
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) *DELETED* [Re: FrankHorrigan]
#28354732 - 06/10/23 05:39 PM (8 months, 3 days ago) |
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Post deleted by RP3
Reason for deletion: ↓
-------------------- "They say money can't buy you happiness, but id rather cry in a dodge challenger than on the sidewalk" Zombie "When working with psychedelic substances, you must always start with yourself" Dr. Albert Hofmann (1906-2008, Rest in peace) Any questions/posts asked/posted by myself are purely, 100% hypothetical and/or make-believe and do not state fact or any current events in any form.
Edited by RP3 (06/11/23 12:53 AM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: RP3] 1
#28354812 - 06/10/23 07:06 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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Frank isn't here, man.
Peat casings are used for PE and other species like panaeolus. Not worth the trouble for cubensis. Please pay attention to the post warnings.
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Mycolorado
Hobbyist


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 8,540
Loc: Interdimensional Bootcamp
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Re: How Frank makes a 50/50+ casing layer (with jiffy mix) [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 3
#28354817 - 06/10/23 07:11 PM (8 months, 2 days ago) |
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