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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
Lost in endless spirals.
Male

Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 228
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18875951 - 09/22/13 01:34 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Ultimately, it certainly is. This is how we learn from it.

You say ultimately a lot. I disagree. People may have ultimately been made by a sperm and egg, or if you want to go back all the way, god or the big bang or whatever. But this does not mean that we should only focus on the big bang or god. Can meaning not be found in the actions of humans, despite that they exist to survive? The product is not always the same as the reason for the product. I understand the logic but it is a depressive fallacy to generalise like that.

How would we learn from or even understand UV rays if it weren't for studies on the sun?
I think this is irrelevant to my point. I am not saying that the innate instincts in humans you seem attached to aren't important- there is much to be learnt from recognising we have them and are a product of them. But this does not mean the products of the instincts do not have meaning in themselves, that they are not causers of behaviour themselves.

To learn from your mistakes, you question them to the absolute core and not just the edge of it.
What mistakes? and what do you mean by that? Sounds great but i dont see how its relevant. we aren't talking about mistakes.

People are constantly expanding their presence, whether through genes and or simply by breathing.
1. I don't see how breathing expands a persons presence.
2. You aren't answering my questions.

The sun was a part of it but hardly the absolute root.
And in the same way, human behaviour has much more to it than a simple desire to survive.

There was predetermined desire to exist. I am not entirely sure what to call the stage before this, but I assume it's best described as spreading of bacteria or virus - desire is not the right word.
How can you call this evil when it lacks a consciousness?

Not to mention, you call these things evil- evil is an idea that came from humans, and by your logic, all human behaviour is based on surviving and existing right? and yet the desire to survive and exist came long before the concept of evil. How could it be evil before such a concept existed? Who are you to call nature evil? You think your morality transcends that of even the very fabric of your existence? If your concept of evil includes all life which came before you, surely you can see that your concept of evil is negatively biased. I ask you to think about this because i imagine you're concept of evil makes your life worse- you must see life very negatively. When it comes to things
like evil, there are no facts. Evil is subjective.

Care to elaborate more on DNA and laws of the universe?
The desire to exist you speak of is probably best understood as DNA. Coding inside of organisms that tells it to make proteins, which ultimately shape everything about the organism. DNA is found in all life forms we know of- i think. In other words, DNA is a fact of life- a rule. in the same way, light will from the sun because there are laws of the universe which simply are there. Surely you would not call the laws of the universe evil?

Wars are fought by leaders solely for the desire to expand and this is based on survival, or else the neighboring tribe or country won't hesitate takeover.
Is there any evidence for this? Because there is plenty of evidence for wars being fought for other reasons. Is there anything you can show me that will prove this is more than just your idea that attempts to reduce highly complex human behaviour into one factor?

It's profitable the way people are unfocused in the objective reality they exist in.
Sometimes its also unprofitable. Take buddhism as an example.
What is objective reality? You mean physical things? Are emotions objective reality?

Would you rather want to call the organism morally bad or what causes ruin?
What causes ruin if i had to choose between the two. But if it were my choice i wouldn't. Destruction is better word. Of course organisms destroy things. They also construct them. If organisms didn't destroy each other, life wouldnt be possible. Things would just keep expanding. I don't see how organisms destroying each other to maintain equilibrium of life on earth is evil, (again, if such a thing as evil even exists outside of human life).


--------------------
Are you a lucky little lady in the City of Light
Or just another lost angel?
City of Night, City of Night,
City of Night, City of Night, woo, c'mon


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18880961 - 09/23/13 03:00 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

You say ultimately a lot.

Which is what matters as matter is based on the ultimate.

I disagree. People may have ultimately been made by a sperm and egg, or if you want to go back all the way, god or the big bang or whatever. But this does not mean that we should only focus on the big bang or god. Can meaning not be found in the actions of humans, despite that they exist to survive? The product is not always the same as the reason for the product. I understand the logic but it is a depressive fallacy to generalise like that.

We're most certainly basing everything off the core and it's thus there we work from and uncover. I suppose you could say we're undressing the rabbit hole to reach the carrot.

I think this is irrelevant to my point. I am not saying that the innate instincts in humans you seem attached to aren't important- there is much to be learnt from recognising we have them and are a product of them. But this does not mean the products of the instincts do not have meaning in themselves, that they are not causers of behaviour themselves.

Do we need to understand the sun to understand UV rays?

What mistakes? and what do you mean by that? Sounds great but i dont see how its relevant. we aren't talking about mistakes.

To learn from our survival mechanism, core of existence, you question mistakes as these are what creates anxiety.

1. I don't see how breathing expands a persons presence.
2. You aren't answering my questions.


1. You have to breathe to be present.
2. 4 questions in one paragraph was too much for me then, I would gladly do it when tripping. It's too much for me now as well, however, if you have a direct or intriguing question that cover the 4 questions, please shoot.

And in the same way, human behaviour has much more to it than a simple desire to survive.

Not in the very known bottom of the human mind.

How can you call this evil when it lacks a consciousness?

Would you not say it's causing ruin?

That evil has to be conscious is obviously bullshit.

Not to mention, you call these things evil- evil is an idea that came from humans, and by your logic, all human behaviour is based on surviving and existing right? and yet the desire to survive and exist came long before the concept of evil. How could it be evil before such a concept existed? Who are you to call nature evil? You think your morality transcends that of even the very fabric of your existence? If your concept of evil includes all life which came before you, surely you can see that your concept of evil is negatively biased. I ask you to think about this because i imagine you're concept of evil makes your life worse- you must see life very negatively. When it comes to things
like evil, there are no facts. Evil is subjective.


There's no such thing as subjectivity IMO, it's all based on the external which is evil according to the concept and definition of evil.

The desire to exist you speak of is probably best understood as DNA. Coding inside of organisms that tells it to make proteins, which ultimately shape everything about the organism. DNA is found in all life forms we know of- i think. In other words, DNA is a fact of life- a rule. in the same way, light will from the sun because there are laws of the universe which simply are there. Surely you would not call the laws of the universe evil?

Thanks for elaborating.

Every LAW is evil as it denies freedom of the mind.

Is there any evidence for this? Because there is plenty of evidence for wars being fought for other reasons. Is there anything you can show me that will prove this is more than just your idea that attempts to reduce highly complex human behaviour into one factor?

Survival of the fittest.

Sometimes its also unprofitable. Take buddhism as an example.

It might be unprofitable in regards to a Buddhist Guru, apart from heroic status obviously. But it's materialistically profitable to people filling the Buddhist space. If you don't buy the last apple in your local grocery store, someone else could do it and take advantage over your absence. Also, practicing Buddhism is most rationally an illusion, which is profitable to people understanding how to abuse illusions - it keeps the Buddhist in bay and unfocused on reality.

What is objective reality? You mean physical things? Are emotions objective reality?

It fits more saying objective, my bad. The objective is the external world, what happens outside your mind. The mind is solely influenced on what happens outside it so yes, emotions are based on the objective.

What causes ruin if i had to choose between the two. But if it were my choice i wouldn't. Destruction is better word. Of course organisms destroy things. They also construct them. If organisms didn't destroy each other, life wouldnt be possible. Things would just keep expanding. I don't see how organisms destroying each other to maintain equilibrium of life on earth is evil, (again, if such a thing as evil even exists outside of human life).

Ruination and destructive is the same thing. By definition it's evil. If you disagree with the dictionary, I don't understand why you use the English language.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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Offlinejimiandtheshroom27
Lost in endless spirals.
Male

Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 228
Loc: Flag
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: liquidlounge]
    #18881233 - 09/23/13 04:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I give up.

You fail to address several of my points, and seem to show a rigidity to your views that is not lessened by any points i raise, however valid.
It seems as though you are already certain you are right. You often state opinion as fact, and back up these "facts" with arguments that cannot be proved correct nor false. You did it on my other thread too.
I fail to see how one could have a philosophical debate without acknowledging that at least some matters are subjective. Isn't that the point? you have your ideas, i have mine?


By definition it's evil. If you disagree with the dictionary, I don't understand why you use the English language.

Well interestingly enough, definitions of evil are subjective.

Who writes dictionaries? Why should i care what their opinions are on a subject like evil? Shouldn't my measurement lie within myself? Isn't that what you said on my other thread?

You have taken the definitions of evil from one website.

There is no point of us debating when you refuse to recognise the points i raise.

Never mind. You can win. Let us say your view is the correct one. I have no more desire to continue.


--------------------
Are you a lucky little lady in the City of Light
Or just another lost angel?
City of Night, City of Night,
City of Night, City of Night, woo, c'mon


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: Patriotism- What do you think? Good or Bad? [Re: jimiandtheshroom27]
    #18883352 - 09/24/13 02:26 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I believe it's much more simple and effective doing this in persons or away from keyboards as I don't recall what I was supposed to add if you answered X or Y. It could be hard following me in such long correspondence, I am sorry for this.

I fail to see how one could have a philosophical debate without acknowledging that at least some matters are subjective. Isn't that the point? you have your ideas, i have mine?

Both opinions and ideas are built on the external, hence you're a product of society.

Well interestingly enough, definitions of evil are subjective.

I can't take this any further with you if you're about to say that evil could be something euphoric. Evil is something bad and unwanted, at least to the sane mind.

Who writes dictionaries? Why should i care what their opinions are on a subject like evil?

I am not sure, department of languages maybe. Academia has to coin and define words for people so that they may use the English language, or else it's useless. Shall we call a spoon fork? If you hit up evil in four major dictionaries online they are pretty much agreeing on the definition:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evil
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evil
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evil
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/evil?q=evil

Everyone defines it as 'harmful or tending to harm'.

In the end it's delusional calling evil something good based on the dictionaries above IMO.

Shouldn't my measurement lie within myself? Isn't that what you said on my other thread?

Not entirely sure which context this was in, maybe you could link me to it? Also, I might have grown since then.

There is no point of us debating when you refuse to recognise the points i raise.

Why don't you define evil, pick whichever dictionary you want. I am not debating with your own definitions, we base ourselves on mutual understanding of communication or else it's not done in good faith.

Never mind. You can win. Let us say your view is the correct one. I have no more desire to continue.

:shrug:


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...


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