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OfflineGiggle_Grower
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Growing shrooms on shrooms
    #18874605 - 09/22/13 03:01 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Ok ive spent half a day searching for this info and came up empty handed. Im sure im just not seeing it of using the right search terms. I remember reading a very few articles and threads, like 3 yrs ago, about cubensis mushrooms that would grow off of mushrooms. A full stem and cap, that grew off the cap off another mushroom. Id like to find info about how these occured and hopefully be able to isolate such a mutation and sucessfully fruit it as an established variety. Any such related info or links would be helpful. Thanks in advance.


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Giggle_Grower]
    #18874645 - 09/22/13 03:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, it is not uncommon. They are called mutants.
A mutation - as the word suggests - is a change of the sequence of the genome, so theoretically if you clone a mutant you'll have a much higher chance of harvesting mutated mushrooms.

I say theoretically because there is no way of obtaining a mono full of mutated shrooms. According to RR a mutation won't manifest itself in every flush but only every now and then. It's an underlying trait.

This question would require a much more complex and elaborated answer though, and I am far from knowing the exact mechanism at the base of genetic transmission of characteristics in fungi. To be entirely honest, as far as I know there are only few experts who could effectively answer your question.


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: LeopardMan]
    #18874678 - 09/22/13 04:18 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I guess you mean something like this:

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr215/ooooo_043/Mauerbach4.jpg

That should be some kind of Macrolepiota mushroom, which suffers from something called "Bildungsabweichung" in German, which could be translated as "monstrosity".

Most of what is called "mutation" in this forum is actually not caused by modifications of the genome, but by viruses which disturb the RNA-activity, bacteria that that influence the proteome. If you get spores from such a mushroom (and you succeed in killing the viruses or bacteria that cling to the spores) they will just grow normal fruit bodies again. But most likely they will be killed by the pathogen if the infection carries on much longer.

I recommend to read a little bit into the subject of Teratology, "the science of monster growth".


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OfflineGiggle_Grower
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: LeopardMan]
    #18874680 - 09/22/13 04:20 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you for the links, ill take all the info i can. I even searched for shrooms growing on shrooms, i not sure why that thread didnt show up. I had hoped they were mutants. As i believe that such a trait could be isolated, however diffucult that may be. I hope to find info as known varieties with the trait and obtain a print of one such mutant. The upside down shrooms are amazing as well, so I'll  expand this thread to enclude them as id like to try to isolate them too. Perhaps cross them and make upside down shroom growing on upside down shrooms. Thats would be quite a sight. I know this will take a ton of work, perhaps I could finally make a grow log of my experiment.

Rauhfasertapete- thank you fir the info that is a crazy picture. Definetly the sort of.mutation i want to see, if a little.bit prettier. Ill have to check out the other info you have provided as well.


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Noobs! The best tool here is up top to the right. Don't  forget about it. Just type your question in!:cool:
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Edited by Giggle_Grower (09/22/13 04:26 AM)


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Giggle_Grower]
    #18874690 - 09/22/13 04:31 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I did a bit of research into the topic these days, because I´ve found something strange a few days ago in a plasticbottle in my flat:



The mycelium is still healthy and alive. Besides that gross brain thing (22,5 grams fresh) it grew about 30 very small balls consisting either only of gills or stalk tissue. And three absolutely healthy normal mushrooms from which I took some tissue on agar and some spores for prints. The brain unfortunately just grew bigger without sporulating.


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #18874693 - 09/22/13 04:33 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

a monster grow log would be quite a cool thing


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OfflineGiggle_Grower
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #18874704 - 09/22/13 04:49 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Was that a cubensis strain or one known for scorelta?


--------------------
I'm  always interested in trades.
The Awesome Purple Mystics
Noobs! The best tool here is up top to the right. Don't  forget about it. Just type your question in!:cool:
RR is my favorite source of knowledge. Check out his videos!

If I forgot to leave you a rating, please remind me.


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Giggle_Grower]
    #18874715 - 09/22/13 04:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

P. Cubensis Mazatapec, the one with the caps that stay closed and bell-shaped for quite long. if its healthy at least. what you see there is a fruitbody that consisted almost only of gills,no stem, and only a residue of a browwn cap.





I guess this happened after I spawned it about 4 time to hay, so its probably some kind of hygiene-related problem.


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #18874730 - 09/22/13 05:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rauhfasertapete said:
Most of what is called "mutation" in this forum is actually not caused by modifications of the genome, but by viruses which disturb the RNA-activity, bacteria that that influence the proteome. If you get spores from such a mushroom (and you succeed in killing the viruses or bacteria that cling to the spores) they will just grow normal fruit bodies again. But most likely they will be killed by the pathogen if the infection carries on much longer.




Virus or bacteria that influence the proteome? Can you please elaborate a bit more on what kind of virus and bacteria you are referring to? And where did you get this info from?

Also, this statement makes me think that you don't know what you are talking about as far as cubes are concerned:

Quote:

Rauhfasertapete said:
P. Cubensis Mazatapec, the one with the caps that stay closed and bell-shaped for quite long.




There is no such a thing as Mazatapec. They are cubes man. And they all have the same shape.


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: LeopardMan]
    #18874752 - 09/22/13 05:44 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Of course they are cubes, Mazatapec is a cubensis strain. How can you tell something like "Mazatapec doesn´t exist"? Of course it exists, and lots of people grow it. It comes from the same region where Gordon Wasson once collected the first P. mexicana that were later analysed by A. Hofmann. The region where the Mazatec people live, the most notorious psilocybe users in central america. I know my strains, and you should know that each strain has its own characteristics, like golden teacher is said to be a bit bigger, A+ is an albino, penis envy looks like a dildo, and Mazatapec has a bit of a semilanceata-like shape.

The other thing is: Bacteria release their own proteins in or between the tissue of the fungus while they metabolise or after they die, this way they influence the proteome of the host.

Viruses mix their own genetic material with the genetic material of the host. Then the host is going to convert the genetic information that he may think is his own into more RNA or proteins, and thus also multiplies virus RNA or proteins that are coded from virus RNA.

I think I do quite know what Im talking about.


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InvisibleLeopardMan
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Rauhfasertapete]
    #18874778 - 09/22/13 06:06 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rauhfasertapete said:
Of course they are cubes, Mazatapec is a cubensis strain. How can you tell something like "Mazatapec doesn´t exist"? Of course it exists, and lots of people grow it. It comes from the same region where Gordon Wasson once collected the first P. mexicana that were later analysed by A. Hofmann. The region where the Mazatec people live, the most notorious psilocybe users in central america. I know my strains, and you should know that each strain has its own characteristics, like golden teacher is said to be a bit bigger, A+ is an albino, penis envy looks like a dildo, and Mazatapec has a bit of a semilanceata-like shape




Oh God. Another one :facepalm3: For the thousandth time a strain is not a name on a print. Use the search function please.

Quote:

The other thing is: Bacteria release their own proteins in or between the tissue of the fungus while they metabolise or after they die, this way they influence the proteome of the host.

Viruses mix their own genetic material with the genetic material of the host. Then the host is going to convert the genetic information that he may think is his own into more RNA or proteins, and thus also multiplies virus RNA or proteins that are coded from virus RNA.

I think I do quite know what Im talking about.




No offense, but I think you don't. I've seen several substrates contaminated with bacteria which produced healthy muyshrooms. I've also seen several healthy substrates which produced mostly mutants.

Furthermore what you are saying is in contrast with the experience of many respected mambers of this community, including RR.


--------------------



You have to die a few times before you can really live.

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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: LeopardMan]
    #18874817 - 09/22/13 06:30 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It may depend on the pathogen species if there appears a deformation or not. I don´t see how that is in contradiction with someone´s experience.

For example La France disease causes a number of symptoms like characteristic deformations, which can be traced back to a certain pathogene species. Another pathogene species may not cause deformations but the dead of the mycelium, it may refuse to fruit, the yields may be reduced or there may be no problem at all. A Mycelium may be infected with a virus, and there seems to be no problem with it, until you see the fruitbodies grow white gills without producing spores or something. A Cube may be infected with bacteria and can cope with it perfectly, until you put him on a wet substrate where the bacteria multiply so quickly that they cause problems to the cube. Semilanceata is said to fruit only under non-sterile conditions, it needs a yet unknown species of soil bacteria to interact with. Everythings possible.

I have no Idea what kind of problem the fruitbodies on my pictures have, but it can be assumed that it is usually a pathogen. The champignon growers have made lots of research about that, and it usually turned out that fruit deformation problems are caused by pathogens. real mutations are quite rare to be observed, and if they occur then more likely as unspectacular malfunctions of the chemism, its not like in the marvel comics.

Thats at least what they told me in university.


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: LeopardMan]
    #18874876 - 09/22/13 06:58 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LeopardMan said:
Quote:

Rauhfasertapete said:
Of course they are cubes, Mazatapec is a cubensis strain. How can you tell something like "Mazatapec doesn´t exist"? Of course it exists, and lots of people grow it. It comes from the same region where Gordon Wasson once collected the first P. mexicana that were later analysed by A. Hofmann. The region where the Mazatec people live, the most notorious psilocybe users in central america. I know my strains, and you should know that each strain has its own characteristics, like golden teacher is said to be a bit bigger, A+ is an albino, penis envy looks like a dildo, and Mazatapec has a bit of a semilanceata-like shape




Oh God. Another one :facepalm3: For the thousandth time a strain is not a name on a print. Use the search function please.

Quote:

The other thing is: Bacteria release their own proteins in or between the tissue of the fungus while they metabolise or after they die, this way they influence the proteome of the host.

Viruses mix their own genetic material with the genetic material of the host. Then the host is going to convert the genetic information that he may think is his own into more RNA or proteins, and thus also multiplies virus RNA or proteins that are coded from virus RNA.

I think I do quite know what Im talking about.




No offense, but I think you don't. I've seen several substrates contaminated with bacteria which produced healthy muyshrooms. I've also seen several healthy substrates which produced mostly mutants.

Furthermore what you are saying is in contrast with the experience of many respected mambers of this community, including RR.




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OfflineGiggle_Grower
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: dark3st]
    #18875914 - 09/22/13 01:26 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Anyway back to shrooms growing on other shroom. Does anyone else have any other info to share?


--------------------
I'm  always interested in trades.
The Awesome Purple Mystics
Noobs! The best tool here is up top to the right. Don't  forget about it. Just type your question in!:cool:
RR is my favorite source of knowledge. Check out his videos!

If I forgot to leave you a rating, please remind me.


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Invisiblecynical bastad
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Registered: 08/17/13
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Giggle_Grower]
    #18875973 - 09/22/13 01:40 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I made a mushroom out of Glass and then stuffed it....it was a mushroom, w/ a mushroom growing out of it. :bigjoint:


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OfflineGiggle_Grower
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: cynical bastad]
    #18966766 - 10/12/13 02:01 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Bump
Just after the info.in the OP. I want to isolate such a mutation(if it is truly genetic).  Im not after strain discussion(a cube is a cube is a cube). What im after is a print or isolate of such a mutation. Im not asking for such a isolate in USA, as such things would be unlawful. However, suggestions and comments and PMs would be welcome. I just want a jumping point for my personal research, instead of grow dozens of BRF cakes hoping for the mutation to show itself. Which i have done and still hope to find it. Perhaps i should post this in the marketplace.
The Point:
I want to have shrooms that grow off of shrooms.


--------------------
I'm  always interested in trades.
The Awesome Purple Mystics
Noobs! The best tool here is up top to the right. Don't  forget about it. Just type your question in!:cool:
RR is my favorite source of knowledge. Check out his videos!

If I forgot to leave you a rating, please remind me.


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OfflineRauhfasertapete
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Re: Growing shrooms on shrooms [Re: Giggle_Grower]
    #18967409 - 10/12/13 07:27 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Its very unlikely that you could grow a mutant from a print from a mutant. Even cloning is not a save method to isolate a genotype, as mosaicism is quite common in mushrooms.


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