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OfflineYogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18869195 - 09/20/13 07:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?



Quote:

Grapefruit said:
This would be considered logic...................................


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18869392 - 09/20/13 08:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?




For the same reason that kids have to take passive permission forms home (parents only sign and return them IF they object to content) every year for their human growth and development curriculum. Religion is every where as sensitive a topic as sex is.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #18869410 - 09/20/13 08:20 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?




For the same reason that kids have to take passive permission forms home (parents only sign and return them IF they object to content) every year for their human growth and development curriculum. Religion is every where as sensitive a topic as sex is.




Do you think people are actually not understanding the premise of religious schools? Not asking sarcastically, you are responding informatively and I find it hard to think people are missing that part of the op.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
    #18870879 - 09/21/13 05:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
This thread apparently is about Deviate wanting better advice about teaching children about rabbits with horns, pigs that can fly, and unicorns.

Deviate you've been at Shroomery for ten fucking years. Ignorance is no excuse. Don't get huffy. If you wanted pure Christian discourse you would go to Hipforums Christian Sanctuary.

You don't actually want discourse, you want people to -ooooo and aaaaa- about your great compassionate ability to raise new youths (into the same old fucking cognitive dissonance).



It's funny how in your first post you said "
But holier than any religious person is someone who really cares from deep within, and who is willing to go the distance for others". Maybe you should take your own advice.

You know, I am not perfect. I have an ego. I have my flaws, I get frustrated, and upset and even a little afraid sometimes, just like 90% of the people on this planet.

But I am a sincere person. I am sincere about always seeking to understand things more deeply than I do right now and always seeking to grow and become a stronger, wiser, more compassionate and loving person.

All you are doing is pointing out some aspects of my ego which you regard as flaws, and mentioning them as if there was nothing more to me than my flaws, as if those flaws define who I am. If you want to mention what you think is bad about me, go ahead, I am open to constructive criticism.  but it's neither kind nor productive to act as if me or anyone is defined by ego flaws and your lack of compassion tells me that while you may have some correct perceptions about me, you are not highly evolved enough at your core to be worth  paying much attention to.

Oddly enough, in every thread you question my motivations, uncovering some sort of ego need behind my actions. But what are your motives? Are they not also ego-driven? If so, you are a hypocrite, if not what are they?

Anyway, while it is true that my actions have some ego behind them, how do you know there isn't also genuine good will, love, compassion and good intent behind what I do?

If you really understood human nature, you would know that one's intent is far important than the results of one's actions. What is your intent in being so highly critical toward me? It is impossible that despite my flaws I might also have some redeeming qualities?


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Offlineeve69
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18871048 - 09/21/13 07:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You are blind
you are in the wrong place for the kudos you wish for
you yourself don't have the wisdom to teach others wisdom
everything you say proves it.

My motivation?  I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred for all of you usurpers of wisdom, you misappropriaters of the seekers, you commercial endorsers of the useless medieval bullshit that every moment is still the cause of war, division and hatred. Don't think the two of us are in any way the same, except insofar as we both have two eyes and ear, two legs and arms, and so on. Otherwise yes we both hate, but we hate different things. We are not the same,
and learn to use the fucking quotations like I did, and I didn't say everything you just quoted as I said.

All that said I don't hate or dislike you. I recognize that you cannot know the visage and guise of any internet poster.  You dug your own hole, now stay in it.
Or wishful thinking at best - don't.


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...or something







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OfflineYogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
    #18871069 - 09/21/13 07:29 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
You are blind
you are in the wrong place for the kudos you wish for
you yourself don't have the wisdom to teach others wisdom
everything you say proves it.

My motivation?  I am a mystic and seeker who feels rank hatred for all of you usurpers of wisdom, you misappropriaters of the seekers, you commercial endorsers of the useless medieval bullshit that every moment is still the cause of war, division and hatred. Don't think the two of us are in any way the same, except insofar as we both have two eyes and ear, two legs and arms, and so on. Otherwise yes we both hate, but we hate different things. We are not the same,
and learn to use the fucking quotations like I did, and I didn't say everything you just quoted as I said.

All that said I don't hate or dislike you. I recognize that you cannot know the visage and guise of any internet poster.  You dug your own hole, now stay in it.
Or wishful thinking at best - don't.




^^^ silly quote above me is ridiculous. He says contributing in the brainwashing of kids too young to challenge teachers, critically think, or understand basic math is a stupid task.

Obviously ingraining religion be impotant :curbyourenthusiasm:


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
    #18871072 - 09/21/13 07:32 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Happiness comes from within from being yourself

Don't seek it outside yourself


and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth


if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god
we all have god within us, but also the devil within us

thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt)
they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)

christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)

my view is 50/50 buddhism/christianity
it might be good to teach them, that christianity is not the only true religion

accept any viewpoint, accept others as they are, accept oneself


Edited by lessismore (09/21/13 07:38 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: eve69]
    #18871080 - 09/21/13 07:35 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I am inwardly happier than I have ever been. To me, blindless implies the opposite, being inwardly empty and miserable. I spent many years in that state, many years in the endlessly circling mind til I realized the peace and happiness I desired was in my own heart.

That's just my experience and all my so called "wisdom" comes from my experience.

I believe every person's perspective has some validity and thus every person is in the position to give others some wisdom, so long as they faithfully report their experience.


But since you are apparently so much wiser than I, perhaps you could share some of that wisdom with the rest of us here on the forum. How do you think happiness should be sought?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: lessismore]
    #18871096 - 09/21/13 07:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
Happiness comes from within from being yourself

Don't seek it outside yourself


and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth


if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god
we all have god within us, but also the devil within us

thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt)
they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)

christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)




Correct. The truth is so beautiful to me that I cant help but love every path to it and every one who followed their path to it. Some people look at the Bible and see a bunch of ancient nonsense and fairly tales. Others see a collection of ancient wisdom that leads one to freedom.

I disagree that emotions are the devil though. Emotions are from God.


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18871114 - 09/21/13 07:51 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

mio said:
Happiness comes from within from being yourself

Don't seek it outside yourself


and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth


if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god
we all have god within us, but also the devil within us

thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt)
they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)

christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)




Correct. The truth is so beautiful to me that I cant help but love every path to it and every one who followed their path to it. Some people look at the Bible and see a bunch of ancient nonsense and fairly tales. Others see a collection of ancient wisdom that leads one to freedom.

I disagree that emotions are the devil though. Emotions are from God.




Ignorance is also said to be bliss. :ohwell:


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18871118 - 09/21/13 07:52 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Living as emotions

anger/wrath,frustration,hate,worrying,fear

that isn't helpful, it's better to stop up and reconsider if that is what you want to do

I think love is more than an emotion

emotions are often created by the brain(thoughts), but love isn't always I think

when all thoughts/emotions/desires cease there is only love, that is how you came to this world, love for yourself, love for everything you see


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: lessismore]
    #18871122 - 09/21/13 07:53 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

mio said:
Happiness comes from within from being yourself

Don't seek it outside yourself


and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth


if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god
we all have god within us, but also the devil within us

thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt)
they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)

christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)

my view is 50/50 buddhism/christianity
it might be good to teach them, that christianity is not the only true religion

accept any viewpoint, accept others as they are, accept oneself





i never said that Chrianity was the only true religion. I can't really teach them Buddhism though, because that would be frowned upon. But it doesn't matter because Christianity works.

The Buddhists compare religions to rafts meant to help one cross a river. Once you cross, you dont carry the raft around with you anymore.

Of course many different kinds of rafts/boat could be used. Some boats are more suited for certain kinds of people. Christianity is an old but sturdy boat in my experience. It will get you across that river.

ALl the kids need to learn is how to love God instead of sensual enjoyment. Once they commit themselves to the path of truth, everything else will take care of itself. They will recognize there is truth in Buddhism, if they are filled with light and understanding. But they dont need Buddhism, Christ is sufficient.

I used to be more Buddhist/Hindu than Christian. I still recommend Christians study Zen Buddhism because I think it helps expose those parts of the ego which Christianity can tend to enhance rather than reduce.

For example i read in my zen book that religion makes a man's mind narrower and narrower while the goal of zen is to make man's mind wider and wider. I have found that to be true in the sense that, the more I delve into my catholic faith, the more narrow minded I become. Many people find this unnapealing and think I am arrogant and self righteous. The way I look at it however, its not positive or negative. Its just a matter of needing to focus on turning my mind inward right now. That means I dont have time to do things like consider other peoples atheistic viewpoints. It distracts me from my practice of turning inward.

So I have had to learn how to deal with being narrow minded, which is a very unusual experience for me since I used to be extremely open minded and always had a disliking for narrow minded religious folks.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
    #18871127 - 09/21/13 07:56 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yogi1 said:
Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

mio said:
Happiness comes from within from being yourself

Don't seek it outside yourself


and it's true, the truth will set you free, if you are ready for the truth


if god is love , then that love within and for all creatures, is god
we all have god within us, but also the devil within us

thoughts/desires/emotions are the devil, because they create attachments (attachment creates suffering: frustration,fears,worries,doubt)
they are not who we are, we must moderate them (10 commandments)

christianity teaches about the same, just a bit differently (pray, don't live by desires, they make you and others unhappy)




Correct. The truth is so beautiful to me that I cant help but love every path to it and every one who followed their path to it. Some people look at the Bible and see a bunch of ancient nonsense and fairly tales. Others see a collection of ancient wisdom that leads one to freedom.

I disagree that emotions are the devil though. Emotions are from God.




Ignorance is also said to be bliss. :ohwell:




Ignorance is counterfeit bliss. True bliss is full self knowledge. It is being ignorant of all things except one's self.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18871143 - 09/21/13 08:01 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

peace is from god :-)

worshiping god, and not only if you are christian

live in gods name, that is what helps bring peace to yourself and others

do no harm to others, help others, respect every creature on the earth/the earth, accept others

hippy, but it's true ;-)

muslims are the same way often, because they are taught to help others
helping others is the best way to be happy
"One of the central principles of Islam is helping others."


Edited by lessismore (09/21/13 08:15 AM)


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18871144 - 09/21/13 08:02 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I would posit the question how can someone ever really know their self? You can know some aspects but to think we can have a full understanding of anything seems like another aspect of the illusion (ignorance) bringing bliss.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Grapefruit]
    #18871172 - 09/21/13 08:19 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Why can't you have an an open discussion with kids about atheism and all religions? Teaching them what those from both sides claim?




Who says you can't? It's not against the law. But I volunteered to teach kids about Catholicism.

That doesn't mean I can't choose how to present the information. For example I can say "this is what catholocism says". The way I view it, catholicism is one way of looking at life. It's not necessarily the only way to look at life, far from it, and that is part of what makes life beautiful.

However, because being able to look at life free from concepts,  as newborn child does - without any judgment or condemnation or commentary- is precisely the ability that humans have lost, humans need to find some way to look at life conceptually.

Catholicism is one way. It has its pros and cons. And despite what the ignorant among you think, there are pros. When followed, the teachings of Catholicism can be used to mold oneself into a strong, virtuous, wise, mature and deeply inwardly peaceful person.

I know this because I have experienced it in my own life. I wont go into my whole spiritual journey here, but I was an absolutely miserable person before I began to awaken. I have studied many religions but eventually came to find that at least for me (though I believe for many others as well) learning how to love God was the easiest, quickest path to spiritual enlightenment.

So I read the Bible, I prayed the rosary, I went to mass, I did what the fucking church said even though it felt so ridiculously foreign to me at first, having grown up a devout atheist. It wasn't long before I realized that these things actually work. Prayer actually works to still the soul and bring it into the presence of the divine.

For those of you who don't speak Christian, there is a process of disengaging from the endlessly circling mind and centering awareness inwardly in the heart. When this is practiced with sincerity and perseverance over a period of time, one's natural focal point of awareness begins shifting from the activity of the verbal mind to the stillness of the heart. Here, rest is to be found. In here lies the wellspring of joy and happiness and it is present always, one must simply be abiding in it rather than in the outgoing mind. The outgoing mind is what provides us with the feeling of time. The distance your awareness is from the present moment is the same as the distance you are from God. God is eternity, and eternity is everywhere always. Time is the evidence. How could there be time without eternity? Time itself, implies it as eternity is simply the other side of time.

Now Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc are all means for understanding life in such a way that it will lead one to the change I described above. In Christianity this change is described in a certain way, Buddhist describe it in another way, etc. Once your heart has begun to flower, you will see this, the whole world will become alive with the presence of what Christians call God.

I see my role as being one of helping humanity evolve higher in consciousness. Taking the part of a religious teacher is one small way in which I work on this role as I will have 9 soul to present the truth to.


The trouble with atheism is that it is not a value system. It is a denial of the existence of God. Religion is more than a simple affirmation of the existence of God, it is a system of values.

That is why I challenged you guys to present alternative value systems.

What it really comes down to is whether you think happiness comes from within, or from without. The essence of Catholicism  (as well as Buddhism, Hindusim, etc) is that the way to happiness is through the love of God which translates into righteous, charitable behavior, not wickedness and personal gain. All the rest are details.

So when I receive nothing but negativity what am I to assume? That you folks A) think happiness comes from success, sensual pleasure, comfort or other worldly delights? Or B) you accept that happiness is a spiritual treasure, but deny that Christianity can take one toward it?

Well, through my own experience, I know both of those statements to be false. I can do nothing other than report my own experience.

I don't know what all your guys's life goals are but I am seeking happiness. I am seeking happiness because I wasn't finding very much of it in the way I was living before. I wasn't finding happiness through trying to make things in the world go my way. So then I thought, ok happiness experienced within me, so maybe I should start looking for it where I lost it.

So that is what I did, and lo and behold, all that stuff the Jesus said turned out to be true. I would say I am about 10 times happier now than I was at this same time last year despite no changes in my physical situation.

One thing about happiness is that by nature it wants to be shared. So I come to this forum to try to tell them about the wellspring of happiness I found and learn from other souls who have also found the spring and are perhaps much wiser and more experienced than I am in spring management. I have learned a great deal from discussions with posters like markosthegnostic, icelander, the chronic and others.

There are also many souls here who are committed to looking for happiness in things. These souls do not like my message and come up with whatever reason they can possibly think of for rejecting it.

I respect their right to look for happiness in the world but I also don't like to debate with them too much because only so much can be communicated at the level of words. Sometimes it seems however, like they do not respect my right to look for happiness within. They preach tolerance and yet they just aren't able to tolerate the fact that I see a use for religion in this day and age.

I don't really see why it isn't ok to teach kids the path to inner happiness. The particular form that teaching take is only of secondary importance to me but I certainly respect the form of Christianity and I know that it works.

I am going to tell the kids that ultimately they are responsible for finding their own answers to the deep questions in life, their purpose, how to be happy, etc. However, I am also going to mention that they are not the first to consider these questions, man has been thinking about them for thousands of years. Catholicism is one particular way of approaching the problem of life that mankind has come up with. It isn't necessarily the only way, or even the best way, but its certainly a whole lot better than trying to find happiness in the world, for the history of mankind can be seen as a testament to the fact that this does not work.

I know this post was rather long and for that I am sorry but I felt the need to explain myself because I am feeling a little misunderstood. Is there anyone here who agrees with me or appreciates what I am tryng to do despite the fact I am not perfect and sometimes make mistakes?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: lessismore]
    #18871179 - 09/21/13 08:22 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


peace is from god :-)

worshiping god, and not only if you are christian

live in gods name, that is what helps bring peace to yourself and others

do no harm to others, help others, respect every creature on the earth/the earth, accept others

hippy, but it's true ;-)

muslims are the same way often, because they are taught to help others
helping others is the best way to be happy
"One of the central principles of Islam is helping others."





The Bible says Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


So the idea that you have to be a Christian to be acceptable to God is not a Biblical idea.


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Invisiblelessismore
Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 6,268
Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
    #18871196 - 09/21/13 08:29 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Happiness doesn't get less by being shared (giving is better than receiving)

peace ;-)

I think you will make a great teacher

My religion teacher taught me Christianity as though it was the only true religion, and just read aloud from the book, he didn't say much himself that I can remember (only from the book)

Edit: that was actually not the reason.. it was because I was busy studing, didn't want to decide  , and didn't have the money for taxes , but I had lost faith temporarily and my soul for some years.. I never declared myself atheist iirc , but don't remember too well (I think I wanted to keep all options open, so atheist didn't fit me iirc)


I still have faith in god.. but I'm not 100% christian, I believe buddhism teaches it well too and many other religions

Love is what sets us free, and is what should be taught, love/respect for all living creatures
the miracle of nature, the miracle of creation (god gave us his spirit, and a body), god gave a soul to all living creatures too

The soul is the holiest gift we have , and our bodies we should appreciate (not live as desires, the body is only temporary)


Edited by lessismore (09/21/13 08:48 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Yogi1]
    #18871213 - 09/21/13 08:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yogi1 said:
I would posit the question how can someone ever really know their self? You can know some aspects but to think we can have a full understanding of anything seems like another aspect of the illusion (ignorance) bringing bliss.




You ARE yourself. So to you know yourself fully, really means simply to be yourself, which you already are and cannot help but be.

So where does the confusion come from? The mind. The mind generates thoughts and through the power of thought it becomes possible to imagine you are something that you are not. The essence of what you are does not change however, thinking you are a crocodile for example, does not make you a crocodile. When imagination ceases, what is left, is what you truly are.

That simple memo is what Christ gave his life to make known to us.

You see, both knowledge and ignorance are both only made possible through imagination. Without imagination, without any thought, there is nothing to know or make known and no one to know it. There is just the pure suchness of the moment. Do you understand?

The great secret that mankind has forgotten is that this pure suchness of the present moment is actually peace. People do not see this, because they are always more or less lost in thought and do not give the present moment their full attention.

All the sacred texts, all the churches, all the prayers, all the different meditations, etc are meant to lead a man (or woman) to this realization. They are meant as aids to bring one's attention in, away from the endless circling of the outgoing mind and onto the present moment, which in Christianity is worshipped as God. In Buddhism it is called Nirvana.


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OfflineYogi1
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Re: I volunteered to teach religious education to fifth graders [Re: Deviate]
    #18871233 - 09/21/13 08:45 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Yogi1 said:
I would posit the question how can someone ever really know their self? You can know some aspects but to think we can have a full understanding of anything seems like another aspect of the illusion (ignorance) bringing bliss.




You ARE yourself. So to you know yourself fully, really means simply to be yourself, which you already are and cannot help but be.

So where does the confusion come from? The mind. The mind generates thoughts and through the power of thought it becomes possible to imagine you are something that you are not. The essence of what you are does not change however, thinking you are a crocodile for example, does not make you a crocodile. When imagination ceases, what is left, is what you truly are.

That simple memo is what Christ gave his life to make known to us.

You see, both knowledge and ignorance are both only made possible through imagination. Without imagination, without any thought, there is nothing to know or make known and no one to know it. There is just the pure suchness of the moment. Do you understand?

The great secret that mankind has forgotten is that this pure suchness of the present moment is actually peace. People do not see this, because they are always more or less lost in thought and do not give the present moment their full attention.

All the sacred texts, all the churches, all the prayers, all the different meditations, etc are meant to lead a man (or woman) to this realization. They are meant as aids to bring one's attention in, away from the endless circling of the outgoing mind and onto the present moment, which in Christianity is worshipped as God. In Buddhism it is called Nirvana.




If I never tried to improve myself I would be a far dickier less wise individual. I find it hard to believe that social and mental reflexes make us who we are.


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