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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Why didn't he pray for his son?
    #18853924 - 09/17/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/06/church-pastor-rick-warrens-son-commits-suicide/2059193/

Rick Warren, pastor of one of the largest evangelical churches in America, lost his son in April to suicide.

"Gee Dad, I know I am going to heaven, so why wait?" said pastor junior.

I guess there is no harm in delusional beliefs. At least the Warrens demonstrated the healing power of Christ... NOT!

Reap what you sow, bitches! Jeebus hates him some false profits.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18853945 - 09/17/13 03:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/04/06/church-pastor-rick-warrens-son-commits-suicide/2059193/

Rick Warren, pastor of one of the largest evangelical churches in America, lost his son in April to suicide.

"Gee Dad, I know I am going to heaven, so why wait?" said pastor junior.

I guess there is no harm in delusional beliefs. At least the Warrens demonstrated the healing power of Christ... NOT!

Reap what you sow, bitches! Jeebus hates him some false profits.




Hey he's in a mother fucking better place forever.

You just don't get it.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18853990 - 09/17/13 03:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)



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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18853998 - 09/17/13 03:13 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:





btw love your new avatar.  it's bad.  fab?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18854012 - 09/17/13 03:16 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

You need a new acronym.


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #18854017 - 09/17/13 03:17 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Wait, how do you know what his son's religious affiliation was? Perhaps it  was actually his inability to find a belief system that effectively shielded him from the horrors of everyday life that lead him to the grave. Some people need that superstitious comfort to survive, not everyone is as strong as you ya know. :whatyougonnado:


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: Cactilove]
    #18854042 - 09/17/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What was Lazarus religious affiliation when he was raised from the dead and what has that to do with the alleged power of prayer?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18854163 - 09/17/13 03:49 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
You need a new acronym.




WHY?

(Wise Hell Yeah)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18854169 - 09/17/13 03:50 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What does A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. stand for?


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InvisibleCactilove
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18854326 - 09/17/13 04:30 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

The previous statement has little to do with the prayer aspect of religion and has more to do with the function of religion in some people's lives. Now, I suppose we can touch on prayer. Any reasonable and sane person can see that prayer has little power on external events, but that's not to say the power of prayer does not exist. The pastor may have and may continue to pray for his son and in doing so may have achieved a level of psychological comfort, then again perhaps he hasn't. I know for a fact that prayer can bring a sense of peace into one's own life. It may be in the same way a murderer justifies the killing of his victim in order to deal with the psychological trauma involved in taking another's life, but it still allows the murderer to deal with the event that occurred. In other words it may or may not be a lie, but if you believe it regardless it can undoubtedly have beneficial results for the believer.


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18854381 - 09/17/13 04:44 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
What does A.C.R.O.N.Y.M. stand for?




A Crony Man?

Reminds me I gotta do some laundry.



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Offline57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18865231 - 09/19/13 09:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What the Warrens believe is that Jesus's will was done.
if that meant their son is with Jesus now, (in their belief) then they are at peace with that.

it is obviously not what you believe, but then again, why do care what the Warrens and all the congregation believe? I don't get your vitriol and obsession to continually bash these believers.

I certainly don't, they can believe what they wish; as can a Hindu, a Sikh, a Buddhist, or a Hippie.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71] * 2
    #18865300 - 09/19/13 09:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

A Truth Seeker should by name seek The Truth, but that is not what the religious do. They swallow what they have been told. That is not what a brain is for.

No harm? Some 70% of all American males are circumcised against their will because of retarded religious superstition. Millions put in prison over the use of plants and fungi because it offends certain religions. Shit in the Middle East - almost entirely based on religious differences. The hypocrisy and damage goes on and on.

Why do I care what others believe? Because my life gets negatively affected by their moronic and unsubstantiated ideas.

Clear enough?


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Offline57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 2
    #18865445 - 09/19/13 10:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
A Truth Seeker should by name seek The Truth, but that is not what the religious do. They swallow what they have been told. That is not what a brain is for.

No harm? Some 70% of all American males are circumcised against their will because of retarded religious superstition. Millions put in prison over the use of plants and fungi because it offends certain religions. Shit in the Middle East - almost entirely based on religious differences. The hypocrisy and damage goes on and on.

Why do I care what others believe? Because my life gets negatively affected by their moronic and unsubstantiated ideas.

Clear enough?




Not clear at all.

How one seeks a truth, and what they perceive to be a truth, are matters beyond our judgement. If one does not wish to exercise their right to use their brain, who are you to condemn them? Do you wish to take on the role of a Christ in preaching against those believers and the writings?

The damage and hypocrisy have been with us for tens of thousands of years, and if religion disappeared tomorrow, people would find a substitute to use a means to subjugate another person or group. That is human nature and religion is a means to an end.

Circumcised against their will is a real stretch. They are too young to have a will, legally. Someone in control of the infant authorized the procedure. Blame the state for brainwashing medicine and people that this is necessary - I agree with you it is not.

I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.

My life is negatively affected by moronic people every day. They come from all walks of life, have all number of occupations, and believe in a great number of different gods, some even no god. However, they live here too. So I either take up a war to rid the earth of them, or accept that they are here an co-habit the best way possible.
Capish?


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
    #18865834 - 09/20/13 12:04 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.

God bless America!

It always surprise me how people believe Islam is the only religious warfare in the world.

Religions deny freedom to the extent possible.

freedom

noun
1.
the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint
2.
exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3.
the power to determine action without restraint.
4.
political or national independence. (contradicts the other definitions when looking at national politics worldwide.)
5.
personal liberty, as opposed to bondage or slavery


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As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
    #18867338 - 09/20/13 11:48 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.





When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of
teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.

Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.

As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.


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Offline57-71
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18869090 - 09/20/13 07:11 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.





When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of
teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.

Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.

As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.




Seriously? Conquistadors? riiiiight.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18869117 - 09/20/13 07:22 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

It's not like it would've worked.


Quote:

Dead Pa. baby's dad believes in 'divine healing'

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care.

But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder.

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community.

"He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute.

"He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would."

The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said.

A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them.

"Throughout this country … there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said.

About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths.

In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son.

The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists.

Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care.

At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge.

"It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained.

But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance.

"I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over … and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday.

That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia.

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year.

"These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer."

A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law."

Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said.

"They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said.

He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve."

But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said.

For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more.

Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."



]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/05/24/faith-healing-children-death-schaible/2359469/


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: 57-71]
    #18869668 - 09/20/13 09:10 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

57-71 said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I have yet to hear a single politician or judge claim that plants and fungi offend Christianity (the dominant ingrained religion of the lawmakers and legal system in the west). If you could provide source for this I will appreciate it. The US leads the western world in the "war on drugs" - a political means to again, subjugate a class of people and support friends of the elected who run the business of prisons.





When the Spanish conquistadors took over Mexico and Central America, Franciscan priests spread the Christian teachings. The natives said they did not need an intermediary to God when they could speak directly to him under the influence of
teonanacatl (magic mushrooms). Shortly thereafter the Franciscans made it a capital offense to partake of mushrooms.

Alcohol prohibition was certainly funded and backed by churches. They put enormous pressure on politicians.

As to marijuana, how many atheists would call it 'The Devil's Weed'? The whole idea that ingesting some plants is moral and other plants is immoral is certainly based on religious belief.




Seriously? Conquistadors? riiiiight.




What part are you struggling with? The first large scale prohibition of fungi was sanctioned by The Church. That same attitude carries forward to this day.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Why didn't he pray for his son? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #18870497 - 09/21/13 01:27 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)



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