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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #18867579 - 09/20/13 12:45 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
I think we should teach more emotional education and be more forgiving.




I have said this for a long, long time. The current schooling system is so lacking in this respect (here in the UK at least, but I imagine in the whole western world) and seems only fit for pumping out worker drones rather than well rounded and fully functional human beings.




Considering school is like prison, and other than the control and babysitting aspect so mom and dad can both work, it's all about teaching someone to be able to sit 8 hours a day at some boring ass desk job.  And think life is great, just hope they can pay off their massive student loans.  But they are "just" student loans until their wages "just" got garnished.

LOL.




I fully appreciate that this is how it is in the mainstream, but are there not moves being made right now in the direction of social-emotional learning in schools? I, for one, will do anything in my power to prevent my children from going to the type of school you mention above.




That was an Ivy League education!  School, especially college, is largely an imprisonment.  They don't really teach you anything new, they teach you what they want to teach you as you sit there.  Then you gotta spew it back up to get off on good behavior.  And onto your career. 

I mean, what are you hoping for? 

I didn't mind college so much, kind of fun.  But I went in the early 70s.  We were tough back then taking over the admin building in protest to the war in Nam.  I wasn't in on taking over a building that seemed a bit risky.  But others DID.  Can you imagine now, getting students together to take over the admin building at an ivy league university?

Ha ha ha ha.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #18867609 - 09/20/13 12:51 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

How could a school teach a child emotional skills? At the least it would require an emotionally stable adult and good luck finding those in the numbers required for any large scale application. Let alone how anyone goes about applying emotional education in a classroom setting with varying socio-economic backgrounds, temperamental differences, and parental influence. Its hard enough for educators to try and convey something static like a quadratic formula in a way that the majority of a class can comprehend, let alone something as nebulous as emotional health.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Kickle]
    #18867634 - 09/20/13 12:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
How could a school teach a child emotional skills? At the least it would require an emotionally stable adult and good luck finding those in the numbers required for any large scale application. Let alone how anyone goes about applying emotional education in a classroom setting with varying socio-economic backgrounds, temperamental differences, and parental influence. Its hard enough for educators to try and convey something static like a quadratic formula in a way that the majority of a class can comprehend, let alone something as nebulous as emotional health.




Don't try to make my kid feel bad you big meanie!  Teach feel good stuff like there are no losers, just last place winners! 



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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #18867661 - 09/20/13 01:01 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I won last place in a three-legged race once. Not my proudest moment. But I was made whole again during the sack race.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Kickle]
    #18867732 - 09/20/13 01:18 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I won last place in a three-legged race once. Not my proudest moment. But I was made whole again during the sack race.




Sack Race? 

Ever bob for apples?

Or Kneel At The Shrine?



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Anxiety is what you make it.


Edited by LunarEclipse (09/20/13 01:19 PM)


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Kickle]
    #18867960 - 09/20/13 02:15 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
We should?  What's the point of saying we should do anything?





Most simply- to outline wants or needs, goal building behavior, etc.


Quote:

Kickle said:
How could a school teach a child emotional skills? At the least it would require an emotionally stable adult and good luck finding those in the numbers required for any large scale application. Let alone how anyone goes about applying emotional education in a classroom setting with varying socio-economic backgrounds, temperamental differences, and parental influence. Its hard enough for educators to try and convey something static like a quadratic formula in a way that the majority of a class can comprehend, let alone something as nebulous as emotional health.





I think it would be easier for emotional health to be taught - because most everyone experiences emotions - than the quadratic formula, which is conceptual and difficult to tie back into real-life scenarios.

Quickly, off the top of my head, there are three ways I recently read about to teach empathy and emotional-social skills.

The first dealt with rehabilitating child molestors. The molestor has to watch videos of the victims confession (which were usually emotionally-laden), and then re-enact the crime from the victim's perspective, with emphasis on the emotional responses of the victim. Perps who underwent this type of therapy had at least half the risk of re-offense ans the control group.

The second way would be to teach children mindfulness exercises as part of their curriculum. When someone experiences emotions, they arise in different parts of the body. For example, some people hold tension in their stomach, when anger occurs, heart rate increases, etc. By explicitly drawing attention to these physiological markers, we can teach people how to be aware of their own needs and experiences as they occur.

The third way is to provide an adequate emotional vocabulary. Likely, this could be supplemented with 1 & 2 (role playing & mindfulness) to engage the participants in a broader, social context. This exercise would teach things such as appropriate ways to resolve conflicts, engage in groups, etc.


I think it could be done. I also think you pointed out a subtle issue - and its that, ime, teachers are not given much authority nor are they highly coveted. I think it's in some Norse country, teaching is one of the most coveted jobs and it is highly selective (like being a medical doctor here). I think the lack of emphasis we give to educators (again, ime at public school) reflects in the quality of performance. Or it could be a mix of things, or something else entirely. IDK.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18868379 - 09/20/13 04:02 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Most simply- to outline wants or needs, goal building behavior, etc.

Hardly imo, were we capable of doing what we "should" we would have done it long ago.  In other words it ain't going to happen cause you think it should. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Icelander]
    #18868557 - 09/20/13 04:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Okay :shrug: I'm just suggesting an avenue towards a goal. Saying that the goal can't be reached isn't very constructive, imo, especially when you don't give a reason why.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18868690 - 09/20/13 05:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I gave a reason.  It doesn't connect with you because of youth and inexperience.  Humans have the same basic emotional landscape we had at the beginning of civilization and before. And saying something that very likely can't be reached, can't be reached, is very constructive and instructive imo.  You can then put your mind to things that humans might actually accomplish.  Like having a good time  or getting laid.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18868866 - 09/20/13 05:57 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
How could a school teach a child emotional skills? At the least it would require an emotionally stable adult and good luck finding those in the numbers required for any large scale application. Let alone how anyone goes about applying emotional education in a classroom setting with varying socio-economic backgrounds, temperamental differences, and parental influence. Its hard enough for educators to try and convey something static like a quadratic formula in a way that the majority of a class can comprehend, let alone something as nebulous as emotional health.





I think it would be easier for emotional health to be taught - because most everyone experiences emotions - than the quadratic formula, which is conceptual and difficult to tie back into real-life scenarios.

Quickly, off the top of my head, there are three ways I recently read about to teach empathy and emotional-social skills.

The first dealt with rehabilitating child molestors. The molestor has to watch videos of the victims confession (which were usually emotionally-laden), and then re-enact the crime from the victim's perspective, with emphasis on the emotional responses of the victim. Perps who underwent this type of therapy had at least half the risk of re-offense ans the control group.

The second way would be to teach children mindfulness exercises as part of their curriculum. When someone experiences emotions, they arise in different parts of the body. For example, some people hold tension in their stomach, when anger occurs, heart rate increases, etc. By explicitly drawing attention to these physiological markers, we can teach people how to be aware of their own needs and experiences as they occur.

The third way is to provide an adequate emotional vocabulary. Likely, this could be supplemented with 1 & 2 (role playing & mindfulness) to engage the participants in a broader, social context. This exercise would teach things such as appropriate ways to resolve conflicts, engage in groups, etc.


I think it could be done. I also think you pointed out a subtle issue - and its that, ime, teachers are not given much authority nor are they highly coveted. I think it's in some Norse country, teaching is one of the most coveted jobs and it is highly selective (like being a medical doctor here). I think the lack of emphasis we give to educators (again, ime at public school) reflects in the quality of performance. Or it could be a mix of things, or something else entirely. IDK.




Good suggestions IMO and mindfulness is where my mind went as a feasibility. Building vocabulary seems like an awesome accompaniment and even just engaging a group discussion post-mindfulness would go a long ways towards providing examples.

How does one grade, though? These are simply participation points. And if my childhood musical education is any example, participation is easily faked. Sure, I was present, but I was hardly interested or engaged. There is little incentive to dedicate my time to something that I don't have to, especially with youthful imagination being so interesting. Make me give an answer on how I'm feeling and I'll BS something based on 5 minutes of listening to another kid and spend the other 25+ imagining a new game for recess. Like you said, emotions don't vary much and how will you know if I'm actually representing myself or just BS'ing it?

While the skills would be nice to have, if our populace had them as it was, schooling targeting these skills would not be required. Kids pick up emotional habits easily. And if our populace doesn't have them as it is, is it likely to change through the relatively limited and isolated exposure that is school? Providing tools that can be taken beyond the classroom is good, no doubt, but are they likely to be put into practice? Especially with the all too likely counter-pressures from parents with their own coping mechanisms?

I think about a psychologist who is trying to provide these same skills to a kid. I remember learning that many child-psychologists will bring parents into the process and not only give the kids behavioral homework but also the parents. Because if they give a kid an assignment and the kid fulfills it, the parent is still reinforcing prior behaviors without even thinking. It doesn't matter how hard the psychologist works, or how many homework assignments the kid completes. As long as the parent is giving contrary reinforcements in many ways it may as well be pissing into the wind.


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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Kickle]
    #18868999 - 09/20/13 06:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I gave a reason.  It doesn't connect with you because of youth and inexperience.  Humans have the same basic emotional landscape we had at the beginning of civilization and before. And saying something that very likely can't be reached, can't be reached, is very constructive and instructive imo.  You can then put your mind to things that humans might actually accomplish.  Like having a good time  or getting laid.




Idk what youre saying. I imagine something like " it hasn't happened yet, so it never will." that's hardly a refutable point, much less a dealbreaker.



Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Penelope_Tree said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
How could a school teach a child emotional skills? At the least it would require an emotionally stable adult and good luck finding those in the numbers required for any large scale application. Let alone how anyone goes about applying emotional education in a classroom setting with varying socio-economic backgrounds, temperamental differences, and parental influence. Its hard enough for educators to try and convey something static like a quadratic formula in a way that the majority of a class can comprehend, let alone something as nebulous as emotional health.





I think it would be easier for emotional health to be taught - because most everyone experiences emotions - than the quadratic formula, which is conceptual and difficult to tie back into real-life scenarios.

Quickly, off the top of my head, there are three ways I recently read about to teach empathy and emotional-social skills.

The first dealt with rehabilitating child molestors. The molestor has to watch videos of the victims confession (which were usually emotionally-laden), and then re-enact the crime from the victim's perspective, with emphasis on the emotional responses of the victim. Perps who underwent this type of therapy had at least half the risk of re-offense ans the control group.

The second way would be to teach children mindfulness exercises as part of their curriculum. When someone experiences emotions, they arise in different parts of the body. For example, some people hold tension in their stomach, when anger occurs, heart rate increases, etc. By explicitly drawing attention to these physiological markers, we can teach people how to be aware of their own needs and experiences as they occur.

The third way is to provide an adequate emotional vocabulary. Likely, this could be supplemented with 1 & 2 (role playing & mindfulness) to engage the participants in a broader, social context. This exercise would teach things such as appropriate ways to resolve conflicts, engage in groups, etc.


I think it could be done. I also think you pointed out a subtle issue - and its that, ime, teachers are not given much authority nor are they highly coveted. I think it's in some Norse country, teaching is one of the most coveted jobs and it is highly selective (like being a medical doctor here). I think the lack of emphasis we give to educators (again, ime at public school) reflects in the quality of performance. Or it could be a mix of things, or something else entirely. IDK.




Good suggestions IMO and mindfulness is where my mind went as a feasibility. Building vocabulary seems like an awesome accompaniment and even just engaging a group discussion post-mindfulness would go a long ways towards providing examples.

How does one grade, though? These are simply participation points. And if my childhood musical education is any example, participation is easily faked. Sure, I was present, but I was hardly interested or engaged. There is little incentive to dedicate my time to something that I don't have to, especially with youthful imagination being so interesting. Make me give an answer on how I'm feeling and I'll BS something based on 5 minutes of listening to another kid and spend the other 25+ imagining a new game for recess. Like you said, emotions don't vary much and how will you know if I'm actually representing myself or just BS'ing it?

While the skills would be nice to have, if our populace had them as it was, schooling targeting these skills would not be required. Kids pick up emotional habits easily. And if our populace doesn't have them as it is, is it likely to change through the relatively limited and isolated exposure that is school? Providing tools that can be taken beyond the classroom is good, no doubt, but are they likely to be put into practice? Especially with the all too likely counter-pressures from parents with their own coping mechanisms?

I think about a psychologist who is trying to provide these same skills to a kid. I remember learning that many child-psychologists will bring parents into the process and not only give the kids behavioral homework but also the parents. Because if they give a kid an assignment and the kid fulfills it, the parent is still reinforcing prior behaviors without even thinking. It doesn't matter how hard the psychologist works, or how many homework assignments the kid completes. As long as the parent is giving contrary reinforcements in many ways it may as well be pissing into the wind.




Yeah, I think it is difficult to try behavior modification without any control over what happens at home, but that also isn't reason enough to forgo it, IMO. I can imagine grading would be a mix of participation, testing, & a sort of performance wherein the child has to exhibit a range of emotions in scripted dialogue. The nintendo ds has games like this.

It also just occurred to me that teaching ways to cope, deal, & control one's emotions would also be beneficial in this context (willpower techniques such as distraction, deep breathing, etc).

I see private schools implementing these ideas first. Once it works in the private sector, maybe the public will adopt it, too.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18869040 - 09/20/13 06:58 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If you can convince a school to test it I'd be very interested in the results :thumbup:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18869147 - 09/20/13 07:28 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Idk what youre saying. I imagine something like " it hasn't happened yet, so it never will." that's hardly a refutable point, much less a dealbreaker.

Oh I see, just because Unicorns don't fly jet fighter planes "yet" that doesn't mean it's not going to happen.  Thanks for the correction. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Reward, Punishment, & Where the Rubber Meets the Road [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #18870765 - 09/21/13 03:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

What you suggest appears to have led to lower rates of recidivism in the Nordic countries.

Unfortunately the American culture of money worship has given you private prisons and therefore yet another economic incentive to fuck the lower classes over.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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