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OfflineJustsomedude
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Registered: 11/23/11
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bird seed gets wet during colonization
    #18865587 - 09/19/13 10:53 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

having a problem with bird seed.  I perform all the normal steps of rinsing soaking the seed then to dry it I strain it for between 1 and 3 hours then put it into a pillow case and shake it around until the pillow case has soaked up the remaining water.  then I cook the seed in the pressurecooker and once its cool I do a grain to grain transfer.  the seed looks ok at this point, however once the myc starts to aggressively colonize the seed it starts to get wet and get bacterial problems and slow or stalled colonization due to too much moisture.  not sure what im doing wrong.  can anyone shed some light on this?


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Offlinedirty
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18865609 - 09/19/13 11:03 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5265629/fpart/1/vc/1
this tek has worked great for me and its super simple. No soaking for hours on end, I tried some of the other tek and had moisture content issues. this one seems good so far. No contams, limited burst seeds. check it out if you like.


--------------------
"In a completely sane world, madness is the only freedom" -J.G. Ballard

"Why isn't there a strain yet called Rubix Cubensis?" -Fraggin


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Offlineoddiseus
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: dirty]
    #18865628 - 09/19/13 11:08 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If you are drying then cooking it and then putting it in jars you, you have been doing it backwards. You want to clean, soak overnight, simmer, PC, then let dry, then put them in jars.
When you PC them you add WAY too much moisture for them to go straight to jars.


--------------------
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InvisibleLazarus.Long
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: oddiseus]
    #18865736 - 09/19/13 11:38 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Oddiseus is correct up until he places PC before drying, once they have been run through the PC, they will be prone to contaminants, so should Not be spread out to dry after you PC, but instead left in your jars for which ever method of inoculation you are then going to use, PC does Not add significant additional moisture to your jars if prepared properly, Please take a look at this helpful walk through for WBS FrankHorrigan and his WBS tek, Frank is currently cutting edge, his FrankHorrigan - Dunk your colonized grains tek is showing impressive colonization times when spawned to bulk.


Edited by Lazarus.Long (09/20/13 12:10 AM)


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OfflineDustJuice
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Lazarus.Long]
    #18866069 - 09/20/13 02:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I had similar problems until I started letting the wbs dry on newspaper before I PC'd it. Using a strainer only, even if wbs/ grain is steaming, just doesn't dry it out enough.


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OfflineMyTiny_Shroom
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: DustJuice]
    #18866177 - 09/20/13 03:59 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I once use a method similar to yours but got all the wet grains inside the jars while colonizing.  I lost 40 pounds of WBS before getting my methods perfected. 
Here is what I think you need to improve on. Don't soak them for too long.  Because while soaking you have to monitor how much water these seeds take in.  So how many hours did you soaked them?
A pillow case does not take out much water. So use a different method instead.  I think it is not a necessary step in preparing WBS.  Skip this step.
Also, you want to minimize much contamination as possible so doing a G2G after PCing is not too ideal.  It is better to use the grain while they are inside the canning jars.  At least you can look at the moisture level and monitor the contamination level while the myc are colonizing. So put the dry grain inside a jar to PC is better idea.
Once your myc starts colonizing and too much water out from the WBS causing bacterial problems then it means your grains did not have the proper moisture level.
Here is how I prepared mine.  I soak them for 3 hours after washing them until the water runs clear. I picked out majority of the sunflower seeds while washing them.  Then I boiled a pot of hot water to add to the cold water with the WBS inside my PC.  They are now sitting in a bath of warm water for nearly 3 hours to soak.  Then I take the PC on a gas stove to heat the water up.  When the water is almost to the point of boiling, I shut off the gas.  And cover with the PC lid for 30 to 45 minutes to further soak them. I will check a few times to see if the wheat seeds are ready.
The whole purpose is to allow the WBS to take in the needed water while expanding in the hot water.
I never allow the water to boil at all.  After 30 minutes I check the wheat seed to see if it is soft and ready (no more white spot but soft inside.)
Then I put one tablespoon full of gypsum into the hot water with the WBS all still inside the PC.  And stir everything around.  Immediately I poured the WBS into a coriander on top of a bucket.  The water will drain into the bucket below.  I can let the water drain until the grains are dry.  But that take too much time.  Instead, I use a hair blower to set on medium heat to blow on the WBS grains. It only take 10 minutes or so to dry the whole batch on high air.  While drying with a blower, I scooped the seeds to exposed the wet area.  Finally, I scooped the WBS into the canning quart size jars to PC them.  Follow normal PC process should be fine  since no more extra moisture on the WBS now.
I think the extra step you are missing is to blow the extra moisture out of the WBS after soaking before PCing.  So far so good with this process. Oh, I use solar energy so the electric bill doesn't goes up much because electric from the grid is expensive here.  The whole process is to take the extra water off the WBS. The little bit of gypsum will help too.  After PCing you will see the WBS are a bit dry but inside the grains will have the proper moisture for the myc to colonize.  Try it and let us know how it goes.


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Offlinemastercultivator
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18866198 - 09/20/13 04:21 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

JSD,

How long do you 'rinse or soak the seed'?  And do you rinse or soak the seed?
Depending on the ambient temperature you will soak between 12-24 hours.  Up to 24 hours at most in cold weather and 12 hours in warm weather.

What containers are you using?  It seems contamination is probably happening after colonization and that the moisture collecting may be condensation or metabolites.  I'm guessing there is a poly-felt or poly-fil filter that may be allowing black pin mold, bacteria, or similar contaminants in and providing a perfect environment for them (after the jars colonize).

Quote:

Justsomedude said:
having a problem with bird seed.  I perform all the normal steps of rinsing soaking the seed then to dry it I strain it for between 1 and 3 hours then put it into a pillow case and shake it around until the pillow case has soaked up the remaining water.  then I cook the seed in the pressurecooker and once its cool I do a grain to grain transfer.  the seed looks ok at this point, however once the myc starts to aggressively colonize the seed it starts to get wet and get bacterial problems and slow or stalled colonization due to too much moisture.  not sure what im doing wrong.  can anyone shed some light on this?




MTS has some good advice above as well.  I don't soak my millet type grains for spawn anymore.  I use the amycel type millet spawn production methods I redeveloped on my own.


--------------------
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Edited by mastercultivator (09/20/13 04:25 AM)


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OfflineJustsomedude
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: mastercultivator]
    #18866660 - 09/20/13 08:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

lots of good info here

MyTiny_Shroom I like the idea of somehow fanning the extra water off.

dirty, ill try that tek with an extra jar in the future but I think it will still have the same moisture issues

oddiseus, I don't think you understand my process.  clean, soak, dry, load, cook, inoculate/g2g

Lazarus.Long looks like a solid tek and explains what your looking for moisture wise as far as testing it but im already straining longer then the tek says and not getting it dry enough somehow

DustJuice, im going to need to try this but the problem is the amount of seed I need to dry is going to take a hell of a lot of room lol.

mastercultivator, its not so much when and how the bacteria gets in that im concerned about, more interested in eliminating giving them a wet environment to flourish in as that will likely prevent them as well as fix the slow/stalled colonization problem.


just to give you guys some more info which I think will answer your questions.

the jar size im using is half gallon widemouth
for filtration I use synthetic filter disks
for cleaning between use each jar is soaked in bleach and scrubbed clean and left to dry upside down

the bird seed im using is a no corn mix, I remove most if not all sunflower seeds and as many peanuts as possible.

as far as time spent in water the seed gets rinsed / cleaned and sunflower seeds removed which only takes maybe 10 min.  other then that the only time spent in water is 1 hour in near boiling water that is added to the bucket I use with the lid sealed on. after that hour I strain it and start drying by letting it sit in the strainer for between 1 and 3 hours and then scooping it into pillow cases to absorb extra moisture from the surface of the seeds.  cant imagine a 1 hour soak is too long as ive read many people here are soaking for 12 to 24 hours.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Registered: 01/04/11
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18866674 - 09/20/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


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OfflineJustsomedude
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18866696 - 09/20/13 08:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Frank, your tek looks great but I don't see how your seed is getting dry enough and mine isn't, even with longer straining times and additional manual patting dry inside a cloth bag.  I must be missing something or maybe it has to do with the volume of seed im making at once??


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18866732 - 09/20/13 08:57 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I bet the issue is not your moisture content but rather condensation causing wet patches that the myc has trouble colonizing.

Temperature swings will create condensation in your jar.

Does your temp dip at night (where your jars are)?

You don't need to wipe the grains or anything like that if you follow my tek. My seed is PC-ready in 30-60 minutes tops.

The volume of seed does not matter. I prep quite a lot at once sometimes.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


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OfflineJustsomedude
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18866819 - 09/20/13 09:23 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

there are temp swings at night where I am.  hadn't considered condensation from temperature difference.  sometimes after pcing the jars there is condensation on the upper glass inside of the jars but I assume that's fairly normal considering the temps that the hydrated seed is being cooked at and some of the moisture trying to steam off inside of the jar.  that condensation usually disappears later  I assume its being evaporated off.  even after the condensation is gone the seed looks ok.  its only once it starts to colonize that's when it gets wet again. 

already wasted 55 Kilograms of seed and weeks of time trying to resolve this problem so far without success.  its becoming too expensive to continue failing.


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InvisibleFrankHorrigan
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18866891 - 09/20/13 09:42 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, it's getting wet during colonizing because of the condensation. The myc in the jar generates a little heat on its own. If you can find a way to stabilize the temps around your jars, you'll have a better time of it.

Or you can just shake an extra time during colonization to distribute the moisture, that'll work.

Why the hell are you running 55kg of seed when you don't even know how to get the prep right?

Jesus man, yeah, you ARE wasting tons of money.

Get a $15 bag of seed and start small.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU


Edited by FrankHorrigan (09/20/13 09:48 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18866920 - 09/20/13 09:50 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Justsomedude said:
already wasted 55 Kilograms of seed and weeks of time trying to resolve this problem so far without success.  its becoming too expensive to continue failing.




You're trying to fix the wrong problem.  Don't confuse moisture and bacteria.  If the grains are getting slimy and milky, you have bacteria regardless of moisture content.  Check your sterile procedure and filtration methods.

Grains should be fully hydrated inside, but dry on the surface before loading into jars.  However you go about doing that is going to work.  Use my grain tek or another, but just have them dry when you load the jars.  After that, work on sterile procedure.
RR


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OfflineJustsomedude
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: FrankHorrigan]
    #18866965 - 09/20/13 10:03 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

the jars are all packed back in the boxes they came in. figured the little heat generated by myc growth in each jar would help to stabilize eachother but I guess its not enough.  the problem actually only really showed itself once I shook them this time.  I waited for about 20% colonization and shook them up.  and now they are looking a little wet.  in order to rescue the ones that are not showing bacteria yet, I've flipped the jars over on their end in hopes that if any liquid does pool up, it will be away from the seed any myc.

always had a little on and off success with moisture issues but much more success then failure like id loose 2 jars out of 18.  55 kg due to the last 2 runs going green from bad spore solution.  moved on to grain to grain in a glovebox with everything sprayed down with bleach (solved my green problem overnight).  so I redid all my jars and turns out with moisture problems.  incredibly frustrating as you can imagine.  no delicious edibles for me in a while :-(


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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18867519 - 09/20/13 12:37 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Justsomedude said:
having a problem with bird seed.  I perform all the normal steps of rinsing soaking the seed then to dry it I strain it for between 1 and 3 hours then put it into a pillow case and shake it around until the pillow case has soaked up the remaining water.  then I cook the seed in the pressurecooker and once its cool I do a grain to grain transfer.  the seed looks ok at this point, however once the myc starts to aggressively colonize the seed it starts to get wet and get bacterial problems and slow or stalled colonization due to too much moisture.  not sure what im doing wrong.  can anyone shed some light on this?




Have you been using the same spore syringe(s) every time? People often blame wet spot/ bacterial contamination on overly wet grains when the truth is that even if your grains are sitting in a pool of water, the water will only stall or stunt growth altogether. It won't cause contamination assuming the grain was properly sterilized.

If more water seems to be appearing days after inoculation you have a bacterial contamination from either the spore syringe being contaminated or the grains not being properly sterilized. It has nothing to do with excess moisture.

I never bother with straining my WBS for hours, drying it with paper towels or any of the other methods used to get that perfect looking WBS. By most peoples' standards my WBS would appear way too wet the way I prepare it, but by the time the spores germinate that excess moisture will be gone.


--------------------

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Offlinemycofool
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: FooMan]
    #18867701 - 09/20/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

If you are having contam problems soak your seed for 24 hours.
Bacteria might be surviving the pressure cooker. By soaking you are not only adding moisture but you are germinating any mold/bacteria so the cooker can do the job right.


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OfflineJustsomedude
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: mycofool]
    #18867804 - 09/20/13 01:32 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

does bacteria regularly survive bleach and being pressure cooked at 15 psi for 90 minutes if you don't soak your seed for more then an hour?

ive got 2 empty jars left to try this with.  problem is im on my last jar of known clean spawn for grain to grain.  if I open it and this fails im pretty well back to not having even a reliable print or syringe to start from

FooManM, im not using any syringes right now because I don't have any spore solution that I can say is 100% clean.  last time I used it I failed 48 half gallon jars with a mix a good myc and green all cropping up right were I inoculated so I know that juice is no good.

seems like whenever I solve one problem and think im good to go some other disaster happens.


Edited by Justsomedude (09/20/13 01:40 PM)


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Offlinemycofool
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: Justsomedude]
    #18867868 - 09/20/13 01:52 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know about regularly. You can use bleach to clean your jars yeah but not in your grains obviously. The problem could be your grain. Bird seed is filthy. Yes bacteria can survive pressure cooking for 90 minutes. That is one reason for soaking. I also rinse very well after I soak. As others have said you don't have a moisture problem. I have jars that moisture collects on the bottom without any trouble. I also have skipped the soak for a simmer and ran into bacteria problemns. Just from my own experience, I have been doing this for about 7 years now.


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Offlinedark3st
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Re: bird seed gets wet during colonization [Re: mycofool]
    #18867892 - 09/20/13 01:59 PM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Why would a wet patch make it hard to germinate when you can make a lC?


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